How Soon Before "Full Scale" Ops Again?

[roo_ster]

They were still Moslems. One would need to treat Islam the same way the Brits treated the Thuggee. Note: I am not advocating for this, merely pointing out how it could be done.

The Turks were and still are pretty decent fighters in that part of the world.  I think Arab culture is sort of special. Islam+Arab culture = hot mess in close combat.  The Ottoman Empire had a pretty good run and I would hesitate to attribute its fall to Islam or Turk culture.

Another example of effective muslims in combat are the Chechens, but they are more hillbilly badass like highland scots and their descendants.  Not sure if they could work it in a large organized military.

But, yeah, not a lot of real standouts in the Muslim world.  Without a caliph and a weak opponent, they are not too impressive.

[MechAg94]

British Empire already tried this.

That brings up another thought.  When the surrounding nations tried to attack the new nation of Israel, I was thinking I remember hearing that many of those armies were British trained and some led by British colonial military leaders.  I guess they didn't do so well then either.  

I was thinking that is goes back a little to culture that pre-dates Islam.  Reading the Anabasis, I noticed a few things there that parallel to the present day and that was 2500 year ago or so.

[Balog]

The Turks were and still are pretty decent fighters in that part of the world.  I think Arab culture is sort of special. Islam+Arab culture = hot mess in close combat.  The Ottoman Empire had a pretty good run and I would hesitate to attribute its fall to Islam or Turk culture.

Another example of effective muslims in combat are the Chechens, but they are more hillbilly badass like highland scots and their descendants.  Not sure if they could work it in a large organized military.

But, yeah, not a lot of real standouts in the Muslim world.  Without a caliph and a weak opponent, they are not too impressive.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that the Ottomans allowed their Arab subjects to remain Muslim (obviously, given that they themselves were Muslim) and that was what contributed to their inability to make them an effective force. I think only forced conversion away from Islam and breaking up the tribes via forced relocation would work on the ME and neither is really ethically acceptable to Western nations.

[White Horseradish]

Another example of effective muslims in combat are the Chechens, but they are more hillbilly badass like highland scots and their descendants.  Not sure if they could work it in a large organized military.

Historically, they didn't work so well. The Wild Division of the White Army was mostly great at pillaging the people they were supposed to be defending, while failing miserably on the battlefield, the Chechen regiment that Stalin tried to form in WWII wound up being only half-staffed due to massive draft dodging, and the Chechen volunteers deserted in numbers that are just staggering. Not that there weren't some rather heroic Chechens, but by and large, they still need a weak opponent and a strongarm leader.

[Balog]

Historically, they didn't work so well. The Wild Division of the White Army was mostly great at pillaging the people they were supposed to be defending, while failing miserably on the battlefield, the Chechen regiment that Stalin tried to form in WWII wound up being only half-staffed due to massive draft dodging, and the Chechen volunteers deserted in numbers that are just staggering. Not that there weren't some rather heroic Chechens, but by and large, they still need a weak opponent and a strongarm leader.

They play defense pretty well.

[White Horseradish]

They play defense pretty well.

Only on their home turf. Take them out of their village, they aren't so hot.

[Fitz]

Only on their home turf. Take them out of their village, they aren't so hot.

Clearly, they just weren't trained right

[lupinus]

Clearly, they just weren't trained right

Perhaps you should have taught them soldiery things

[Fitz]

Perhaps you should have taught them soldiery things

Shoulda torn em down, built em back up. I was going with the "let them do what they want" approach. Silly me

[lupinus]

Good job buddy. Gold star.

[Balog]

If only we had taken a tough love approach and put the Iraqi recruits into timeout.

[roo_ster]

Stress cards?

[lupinus]

Perhaps counselors would have been in order.

Lots and lots of counselors to help them cope with leaving their beloved goat back at the hut. Maybe just more weekend leave to go visit.

[wmenorr67]

Never trust a culture that isn't supposed to eat bacon, drink alcohol and considers being with boys or farm animals more enjoyable than women.

[SADShooter]

Never trust a culture that isn't supposed to eat bacon, drink alcohol and considers being with boys or farm animals more enjoyable than women.

Dammit, man! I almost choked on my bacon! 

[Balog]

Dammit, man! I almost choked on my bacon! 

Wash it down with some beer and you'll be right as rain.

[lupinus]

Make sure it was a beer poured by a pretty woman

[SADShooter]

Breakfast at work, so beer and comely ladies are in short supply.

[dogmush]

Breakfast at work, so beer and comely ladies are in short supply.

Have you tried changing the culture at your workplace to include beer and ladies?

I'm told it's not that difficult.

[SADShooter]

Have you tried changing the culture at your workplace to include beer and ladies?

I'm told it's not that difficult.

A tough road, but praise be no goat love to contend with...

[Fitz]

Iraqi army in a nutshell...

[Scout26]

On a more serious note:

A suggested read for TommyGunn, perhaps it will open his eyes...


http://www.amazon.com/The-Western-Way-War-Classical/dp/0520260090