Post by: Desertdog on December 28, 2007, 07:58:55 PM
Police Begin Fingerprinting on Traffic Stops
By Sarah Thomsen
http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?s=2776926
If you're ticketed by Green Bay police, you'll get more than a fine. You'll get fingerprinted, too. It's a new way police are cracking down on crime.
If you're caught speeding or playing your music too loud, or other crimes for which you might receive a citation, Green Bay police officers will ask for your drivers license and your finger. You'll be fingerprinted right there on the spot. The fingerprint appears right next to the amount of the fine.
Police say it's meant to protect you -- in case the person they're citing isn't who they claim to be. But not everyone is sold on that explanation.
"What we've seen happen for the last couple of years [is] increasing use of false or fraudulent identification documents," Captain Greg Urban said.
Police say they want to prevent the identity theft problem that Milwaukee has, where 13 percent of all violators give a false name.
But in Green Bay, where police say they only average about five cases in a year, drivers we talked with think the new policy is extreme.
"That's going too far," Ken Scherer from Oconto said. "You look at the ID, that's what they're there for. Either it's you or it's not. I don't think that's a valid excuse."
"I would feel uncomfortable but I would do it," Carol Pilgrim of Green Bay said.
Citizens do have the right to say no. "They could say no and not have to worry about getting arrested," defense attorney Jackson Main said. "On the other hand, I'm like everybody else. When a police officer tells me to do something, I'm going to do it whether I have the right to say no or not."
That's exactly why many drivers are uneasy about the fine print in this fingerprinting policy.
Police stress that the prints are just to make sure you are who you claim to be and do not go into any kind of database; they simply stay on the ticket for future reference if the identity is challenged.
Post by: gunsmith on December 28, 2007, 09:13:06 PM
Its fascism, no its not
Its fascism, no its not
Its fascism, no its not
Its fascism, no its not
Its fascism, no its not
Its fascism, no its not
Its fascism, no its not
Its fascism, no its not
Post by: Matthew Carberry on December 28, 2007, 09:20:01 PM
That can only end with a tasering.
Post by: Finch on December 28, 2007, 09:38:14 PM
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on December 28, 2007, 11:06:13 PM
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Citizens do have the right to say no. "They could say no and not have to worry about getting arrested," defense attorney Jackson Main said. "On the other hand, I'm like everybody else. When a police officer tells me to do something, I'm going to do it whether I have the right to say no or not."
That's one of the problems with our country these days.Government agent with a badge and gun says "jump" we say "how high?"
Post by: gunsmith on December 29, 2007, 12:37:43 AM
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Its fascism
NO! it isn't! 
Post by: gunsmith on December 29, 2007, 12:39:58 AM
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That can only end with a tasering.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkMkGOpAF4s
Post by: Standing Wolf on December 29, 2007, 01:04:49 AM
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Police say it's meant to protect you...
We had to burn down the village to save it.
Post by: Tecumseh on December 29, 2007, 02:12:58 AM
Post by: Devonai on December 29, 2007, 04:40:03 AM
Post by: K Frame on January 02, 2008, 05:47:38 AM
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on January 02, 2008, 06:58:04 AM
same with tickets have a friend whose brother got him locked up by mimicing his id
Post by: Firethorn on January 02, 2008, 08:05:21 AM
The way I look at it - requiring the print protects me - If somebody gives my name to the police officer, counting my my squeaky clean record to avoid having warrants come up which would result in arrest, when the fines aren't paid and nobody shows up in court, when the officers come and arrest me it's relatively quick to prove it wasn't me(with the fingerprint). Heck, in my case they shouldn't even need me to come in - pull up the fingerprint records for my name(I've been fingerprinted for my security clearance, CCW), go 'nope, not his print' and call it a day by running the print through the database to find out who it actually is.
If they don't require identification for issuing a citation requiring payment or a court appearance, I'd darn well want something to prove that the person who shows up in court(or gets arrested for not appearing), is or is not indeed the person issued said citation. A fingerprint is a pretty good method. Doesn't even have to enter the system unless the person doesn't pay/show.
my thumprint has been required on 100's of checks not a big deal i know some check scammers and understand why banks do it. if they don't someone like el tejon can generate reasonable doubt and they walk
This made me think if the reason why Milwaukee might be instituting this requirement. If I was a lawyer, knowing that Milwaukee has a 13% false name rate - for any given traffic offense I could drag that statistic out in front of the judge&jury and say that that shows reasonable doubt that my client actually was the one cited.
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same with tickets have a friend whose brother got him locked up by mimicing his id
Scarily possible - I have some relatives that would do something like this. My aunt once stole my mother's ID back in her teens to get into bars. It's just a step further to hand it to the police officer for that speeding offense... You'd expect the officer to detect that, but some people do look similar, especially if you have a bad license photo. Or a semi-professional fake ID.
Post by: Paddy on January 02, 2008, 08:16:54 AM
Post by: wooderson on January 02, 2008, 08:21:33 AM
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Police stress that the prints are just to make sure you are who you claim to be and do not go into any kind of database; they simply stay on the ticket for future reference if the identity is challenged.
Everybody raise your hand if you're cool with this standard being applied to the ATF, state agencies and guns?
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on January 02, 2008, 08:24:37 AM
my friends brother cost him plenty the ticket he got that night were connected to a much more serious charge that didn't surface till after they investigated and the 2 brothers look alike. thankfully the cop was a real help he said as much alike as they look they are totally different personas and he convinced commonwealth to drop charges. they got the brother he pulled 5 years
Post by: K Frame on January 02, 2008, 09:34:23 AM
Didn't think so.
Post by: jefnvk on January 02, 2008, 09:44:22 AM
Post by: Matthew Carberry on January 02, 2008, 10:02:03 AM
Is it legal to drive in WI without a license on you? Seems that they should just ticket the name on your drivers license, or arrest you for not having a license...
So you steal my license or make a fake one with my name on without my knowledge and the burden falls on me to come up with an alibi (in essence prove my innocence) to avoid the ticket?
Uh uh.
Post by: K Frame on January 02, 2008, 11:10:34 AM
Is it legal to drive in WI without a license on you? Seems that they should just ticket the name on your drivers license, or arrest you for not having a license...
So you steal my license or make a fake one with my name on without my knowledge and the burden falls on me to come up with an alibi (in essence prove my innocence) to avoid the ticket?
Uh uh.
And that's different from being a suspect in any other investigation... how?
You're getting the police process confused with the judicial process.
In the police process you don't have the presumption of innocent until proven guilty.
You have that at the point where you enter the judicial process.
Post by: MechAg94 on January 02, 2008, 12:36:17 PM
Probably more difficult to fake than a normal picture ID. I don't know. You already have to give a print when renewing your driver's license in Texas. Why not just update your photo when you go in and the LEO's just print you with a portable scanner for ID.
Post by: ilbob on January 02, 2008, 05:44:20 PM
Post by: Manedwolf on January 02, 2008, 07:41:32 PM
If you have to Id yourself, a thumb print is pretty foolproof, and hard to fake.
You don't watch Mythbusters, I take it.
You leave fingerprints everywhere you go. They defeated scanners using everything from a latex positive to a photocopy of one. A guy in Japan defeated them using melted gummi bears as the positive.
Post by: Perd Hapley on January 02, 2008, 08:18:24 PM
A guy in Japan defeated them using melted gummi bears as the positive.
So that's where MacGyver has been?
Post by: ilbob on January 03, 2008, 01:34:29 AM
If you have to Id yourself, a thumb print is pretty foolproof, and hard to fake.
You don't watch Mythbusters, I take it.
You leave fingerprints everywhere you go. They defeated scanners using everything from a latex positive to a photocopy of one. A guy in Japan defeated them using melted gummi bears as the positive.
Post by: Firethorn on January 03, 2008, 04:53:33 AM
Post by: K Frame on January 03, 2008, 04:56:30 AM
Portable biometric scanners that can record a fingerprint are cheap and reliable.
Post by: Manedwolf on January 03, 2008, 05:19:37 AM
Who says they're going to have ink pads?
Portable biometric scanners that can record a fingerprint are cheap and reliable.
Portable biometric scanners that can record a fingerprint are cheap and reliable.
On said Mythbusters, one of the methods used was Jamie applying a latex positive of the "stolen" print to his thumb, using just theatrical latex. If someone blended it to their skin color, what do you think the odds are that the bored government employee with the portable scanner is going to notice?
Just wondering.
Retinal scans are a lot harder to fake, and they can be portable, too, just a thing you look into.
Post by: MechAg94 on January 03, 2008, 05:30:28 AM
Post by: K Frame on January 03, 2008, 06:06:43 AM
Just on the fact that the inkpad, as an instrument of police work, is pretty much gone.
Post by: MechAg94 on January 03, 2008, 06:35:14 AM
Post by: Firethorn on January 03, 2008, 07:15:12 AM
I guess my question is this: Is it easier to make a passable fake ID or use a fake SS number or is it easier to fake a supervised fingerprint scanner?
I'd be willing to state that generally speaking, yes, it's easier to make a passable fake ID. It's at least a little harder to fake a fingerprint for a supervised scan. Blending for color match and hiding any seams takes work and would have to be renewed regularly. A fake ID takes a certain amount of equipment depending on the style of ID the state uses, but many places have them today. Such a device can produce hundreds of fake IDs, whereas a fake fingerprint has to be personalized, and doesn't have the economy of scale.
I suggested the ink pad to limit 'invasion of privacy' allegations because the idea would be that the print wouldn't be entered into the system unless an identity question/problem arose.
Post by: Manedwolf on January 03, 2008, 07:21:45 AM
I guess my question is this: Is it easier to make a passable fake ID or use a fake SS number or is it easier to fake a supervised fingerprint scanner?
Factor into that the basic fact that you leave fingerprints on every object you touch. You don't leave your SS everywhere.
Post by: MechAg94 on January 03, 2008, 08:55:43 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on January 03, 2008, 11:07:05 AM
Police Begin Fingerprinting on Traffic Stops
Posted: Jan 6, 2005 06:52 PM
Post by: MechAg94 on January 03, 2008, 11:57:22 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on January 03, 2008, 12:08:33 PM