Author Topic: Academics debate guns & gun rights  (Read 5535 times)

vaskidmark

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Academics debate guns & gun rights
« on: July 03, 2010, 01:52:08 PM »
At least that's what I think they were doing.

http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/topic,70002.0.html

Please go here and enjoy the learned (??) give-and-take between academics on the entire spectrum of guns and gun rights.  It does make the trolls we encounter seem that more tolerable.

stay safe.
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lee n. field

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Re: Academics debate guns & gun rights
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2010, 03:41:24 PM »
The first page varies from good ("Please be careful with lables-  I consider myself to be a far left-winger.  I also have a concealed carry permit, and I usually carry.Living 40 miles from the US-Mexico border will do that to a fellow....") to "to stupid to breathe, much less teach anything".
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MechAg94

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Re: Academics debate guns & gun rights
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2010, 04:59:12 PM »
Some of those people really fight hard to justify not having any absolute rules or laws to live by.  They seem to think that everything must malleable and flexible to fit whatever seems right at the time.  Their intellectual and logical efforts to justify those positions are painful to read and normally just show their own short sighted thinking.    


I guess the other thing that gets under my skin is when someone makes a very good well worded post and some idiot just says "that's silly" with no effort to debate or defend.  IMO, that is the most idiotic way to reply and is basically the intellectual equivalent of covering your ears and yelling "naa, naa, naa". 
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 07:17:20 PM by MechAg94 »
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longeyes

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Re: Academics debate guns & gun rights
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2010, 07:18:59 PM »
Unless they've field-stripped a 1911 I'm not interested.
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MechAg94

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Re: Academics debate guns & gun rights
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2010, 07:31:06 PM »
Yes, I guess sometimes intellectuals are often the least equipped to understand the right of self defense and right keep and bear arms.   =)
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Academics debate guns & gun rights
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2010, 07:36:33 PM »
Some of those people really fight hard to justify not having any absolute rules or laws to live by.  They seem to think that everything must malleable and flexible to fit whatever seems right at the time.  Their intellectual and logical efforts to justify those positions are painful to read and normally just show their own short sighted thinking.    


I guess the other thing that gets under my skin is when someone makes a very good well worded post and some idiot just says "that's silly" with no effort to debate or defend.  IMO, that is the most idiotic way to reply and is basically the intellectual equivalent of covering your ears and yelling "naa, naa, naa". 


That's silly. 
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MechAg94

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Re: Academics debate guns & gun rights
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2010, 10:09:12 PM »
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Perd Hapley

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Re: Academics debate guns & gun rights
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2010, 10:48:37 PM »
Actually, some statements, no matter how eloquently worded, are simply silly.  A cogent refutation is wasted on those dedicated to an unreasonable position. 
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KD5NRH

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Re: Academics debate guns & gun rights
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2010, 06:39:11 AM »
Actually, some statements, no matter how eloquently worded, are simply silly.  A cogent refutation is wasted on those dedicated to an unreasonable position.  

Now that's silly.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Academics debate guns & gun rights
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2010, 10:10:27 AM »
Now that's silly.

No, THAT's silly. 
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zahc

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Re: Academics debate guns & gun rights
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2010, 10:14:11 AM »
*plugs ears*

nah nah naaaha naaa...
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Doggy Daddy

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Re: Academics debate guns & gun rights
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2010, 10:56:52 AM »
It sure did get quiet at Teh Kronikal after post #141 on page 10!  I think all their mental gyrations and gymnastics sorta paled next to txdoc's "If you try to take away our guns, we will kill you."

It wasn't the smartest or most High Road thing to say, but it sure was effective!  :lol:

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Mabs2

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Re: Academics debate guns & gun rights
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2010, 11:13:48 AM »
Quote from: frogfactory
Why does it really, honestly, matter so much what the founding fathers wrote or thought?  These types of serious issues need to be resolved by careful examination of the issues themselves, not by struggling to interpret a document from an irrelevant age.
whoa.
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Academics debate guns & gun rights
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2010, 11:30:03 AM »
whoa.

You can say that again. I think I threw up a little when I read that.

One of his statements a few posts later. Bolding is mine.

Quote from: Frogfactory
Right.  Whether something is constitutional or not is unimportant.  What's important is whether it's right or wrong and other such concerns.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2010, 11:33:29 AM by kgbsquirrel »

Monkeyleg

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Re: Academics debate guns & gun rights
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2010, 11:50:32 AM »
Quote
What's important is whether it's right or wrong and other such concerns.

And who, I wonder, decides what's right or wrong? Surely not God, so I'd imagine an unelected administration czar, right?

It's amazing what liberals now think is irrelevant: moral absolutes; the Bible; the Constitution; marriage; property rights; the right to life and the right to defend life; and (fill in the blank).


dm1333

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Re: Academics debate guns & gun rights
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2010, 12:23:45 PM »
Yeah, but there are one or two pretty level headed people taking part in that thread.  This gem was directed at frogfactory. ff evidently is an English researcher who lives and works here but hates it because everbody is armed and we don't have good health care or public transportation.


Quote
Well, consider yourself as having been asked to leave. Oh, perhaps not by the visionaries who asked you here, but then they are surely more "acceptable" in your universe, eh? We little folks aren't supposed to have awkward opinions, correct?
You are a troll, or the worst possible guest in the history of guests. If you had any balls you would admit why you left your native paradise to feed off of this greatly disfunctional West.

Please, deign to inform us about the superior nature of your own Fantasy Island, we need your help.

Make it a complete list, I'm sure you have it all in your diary.

SMA, troll.
 
 
 

I think I'm going to spend more time there soaking up the atmosphere.  [popcorn]

lee n. field

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Re: Academics debate guns & gun rights
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2010, 01:52:58 PM »
It sure did get quiet at Teh Kronikal after post #141 on page 10!  I think all their mental gyrations and gymnastics sorta paled next to txdoc's "If you try to take away our guns, we will kill you."


Dang!  Maybe I should read through more than the first page.
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seeker_two

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Re: Academics debate guns & gun rights
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2010, 03:39:08 PM »
Never tell someone that their position is silly when it's more appropriate to tell them that their position is stupid....
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Academics debate guns & gun rights
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2010, 04:00:40 PM »
Never tell someone that their position is silly when it's more appropriate to tell them that their position is stupid....


That's silly and stupid. 
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BReilley

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Re: Academics debate guns & gun rights
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2010, 07:42:37 PM »
Running commentary as I read:

I love how
Quote
Anyone who pretends that the Second Amendment is clear is being intellectually dishonest. If it was meant to guarantee individual ownership what is the militia doing in there? Yet if it is supposed
to be about militias why is it among the amendments devoted to individual rights? If one of my students wrote something so muddy they would have to do a mandatory rewrite.
That bit of idiocy is right on the first page.  He willfully ignores the historical meaning of "militia"(a thoroughly elementary bit of the 2A debate), and you're paying him to teach your kids.  Seems to be a history or writing teacher, too.  Blech.

I'd love to listen in on a discussion about when the Second Amendment became irrelevant, and why.  I doubt very much any one of the fools would argue that the First Amendment is irrelevant, or the fifth.

Same guy later:
Quote
I would disagree with any characterization of many of the Founders as libertarian. Certainly the subset who drafted the Constitution were cautious centralizers. They were after all trying to replace the looser and more libertarian Articles of Confederation, which had given too much power to the rabble.

Doesn't seem to realize that farthest loony-lefties of the eighteenth century would be fairly in line with today's "centrists", and certainly doesn't see that "the rabble" these days IS THE GOVERNMENT.

That frogfactory personage seems just not to want to bother with borders, laws, or nations at all.  Who needs any of that when the welfare states of Europe will pay you to breathe?
I'd bet she's a thoroughly miserable, terribly snarky person to be around.

What's with the aside about saying "unthinking patriotism" instead of "blind patriotism"?  Seriously?  What about unthinking people?  Won't they be insulted?

Quote
In this moment of time on the world stage, Europe is enjoying a particularly progressive renaissance relative to the United States
Dude, Europe is ON FIRE!  Can't he smell the smoke?  Progressivism is burying Europe in its own excrement.

The "defend to the death" saying, regarding freedom of speech, has got to be one of my least-liked clichés.  It also often comes from those who would, for instance, prefer me not to practice religion within a hundred yards of them.

Quote
I'd love to scrap the Second Amendment all together...I'd like to live in a country that doesn't have such a violent law.
Wow.

Where do these people get the idea that some sizable chunk of the American population wants to make the country into a Christian theocracy?  Why is Palin the associated politician?

This guy's post started out pretty good, then:
Quote
That said, I still disagree that handgun bans constitute an unreasonable infringement on the right to bear arms, EVEN IF we accept Scalia's argument that it is an individual right.
This makes no sense at all.

Quote
So a lot of the insistence on the right to arm bears, to me, has the cast of little boys playing war to the faint marital sounds of "Yankee Doodle" in the background
"Faint marital sounds" made me giggle like the pervert I am.
I'm very surprised that a bunch of(assumably) teachers failed to catch it.

I like how t_r_b responds to green_mountain_boy's perfectly good argument with what I'd call an ad-hominem about his state's suicide rate.  In the same post, he says "guns don't create crime. They don't prevent it either. They just make it more deadly", which seems not to mesh with England's general stabbiness.

Quote
"The gun at my side means I cannot be forced, only persuaded."

Yeah.  By more people with more guns.  And then we live in Might Makes Right Land.
It's a very silly line of argument.

It's not silly at all.  The idea is that an argument is based on persuasion until force is used.  If "it" comes down to guns, someone will end up dead or badly hurt.  The intended victim may have been forced into violent conflict, but he/she hasn't been forced to comply with his attacker's wishes.  The statement is poorly worded, but not silly.  The responder, post_functional(who seems to be a tool), suggests that the statement refers to debates over pizza toppings, or perhaps elections.  I'd say that's, to use a favorite phrase of The Left, "intellectually dishonest".

In closing: what a bunch of buttholes.  These people make me want to buy a houseful of schoolbooks(the history ones written 50+ years ago, please) with which to educate my children, and a truckload of ammo.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Academics debate guns & gun rights
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2010, 08:31:41 PM »
Quote
Anyone who pretends that the Second Amendment is clear is being intellectually dishonest. If it was meant to guarantee individual ownership what is the militia doing in there?
I love howThat bit of idiocy is right on the first page.  He willfully ignores the historical meaning of "militia"(a thoroughly elementary bit of the 2A debate), and you're paying him to teach your kids. 

You give him way too much credit.  He doesn't need a history lesson, until he learns English well enough to comprehend something as dirt-simple as the Second Amendment. 

And until that time, please don't waste any pixels refuting him.
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sanglant

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Re: Academics debate guns & gun rights
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2010, 10:17:44 AM »
Where do these people get the idea that some sizable chunk of the American population wants to make the country into a Christian theocracy?  Why is Palin the associated politician?
i blame CNN.

In closing: what a bunch of buttholes.  These people make me want to buy a houseful of schoolbooks(the history ones written 50+ years ago, please) with which to educate my children, and a truckload of ammo.
teachers, this is how they were when i was in elementary school. for some reason people don't want to see it. and this set has some very interesting books, just something i have been thinking about buying. =D