The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy

[grampster]

46.9 % of the populace don't pay any taxes at all.  That's the shame of the system.  Everybody should pay something. 
I'd like to see the income tax disappear.  I'd like to see the fair tax.  No taxation on anything till the final transaction; on all goods and services at 10% general sales tax and 10% Social security.  The SS would be in a lockbox, to quote Algore.

[Sindawe]

If not you're probably single and have no kids.  Or you're also including state/local income tax to add some more false rage to your self-righteous rant.

Let me see if I understand your POV.  If it is theif B that steals the fruits of one's labor rather than theif A, such somehow makes the cumulative theft by both less? 

And if one is single and/or does not yet/has chosen to not burden the world with yet more mouths to feed, it somehow lessens the sting of theivery, despite the amount stolen being greater?

 

It may not bother you overly much, but I am greatly annoyed by being reduced to being a sharecropper in my own life.

I'd much rather tax consumption than income, as it's a lot easier to control your own tax rate that way, but that's just me as a weirdo.

I know a tailor quite skilled at crafting Wookie suits N.   

[Northwoods]

Let me see if I understand your POV.  If it is theif B that steals the fruits of one's labor rather than theif A, such somehow makes the cumulative theft by both less? 

And if one is single and/or does not yet/has chosen to not burden the world with yet more mouths to feed, it somehow lessens the sting of theivery, despite the amount stolen being greater?

 

It may not bother you overly much, but I am greatly annoyed by being reduced to being a sharecropper in my own life.

Ummm. No.

Untwist the nickers a bit.  I was merely trying to point out the flaws in his rant about effective vs. marginal tax rates.

[MicroBalrog]

46.9 % of the populace don't pay any taxes at all.

No. 46.9% of the populace don't directly pay Federal Income Tax.

First of all, rising tax rates on any one segment of the population reflect on everybody else in rising costs, etc.

Second, there are other taxes.

[AZRedhawk44]

Second, there are other taxes.

I paid my fair share of federal excise taxes on firearms last year, too.  And gasoline taxes.  And whatever other taxes.  Heck, I even bought a couple packs of smokes over the year!

There may be other federal taxes, MB, but they simply don't amount to the $13.5k I paid in federal taxes last year.  I'd estimate the above list for me last year to be approximately $500-$750, all told.

Unless someone would like to show me how I'm paying the equivalent, or even a significant percentage, of my $13.5k in income tax in other federal taxes?

Poor people ain't pulling their fair share of $3000 per head, even with the other taxes you mention.

If they're poor, they don't have the disposable income for repeated firearms sales.

If they're poor and they smoke, they cost more through nationalized health care than they'll ever generate via tobacco taxes.  But, if they spend $200 a month on smokes then the fedgov gets $0.62 per pack, or about $20 (figuring generously).  that's $240 a year.  Just $2760 to go!

Federal excise tax on gasoline is $0.184 per gallon.  About 5% of your total gas expenditures.  Spend $200 a month on gas, and you're contributing $120 a year in federal taxes.  Just $2640 to go till you earn your parity with real tax payers!

I'm having a hard time finding stats for excise taxes on firearms and ammo.  I'm guessing it's about 10%.  Let's say our "poor" person has $100 a month they spend on average either on gun purchases or ammo purchases.  Quite the lifestyle for a poor person, but whatever.  That's another $120.  He's up to $480 towards tax parity.  Only $2520 to go!

Find me another $2500 and we'll call it even, MB.

I don't accept the argument that these people pay their share of taxes via sources other than federal income tax.

And... keep in mind, I pay these excise taxes, too.  As does everyone in the 53% that pay income taxes.

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

Ha. I'm like a cabinet member. I don't pay any income tax.

[Tallpine]

Well, if you want everybody to pay some income tax, then you have to give up your personal exemptions and standard/itemized deductions too 

[P5 Guy]

Warren Buffet has so much money he has to get Bill and Melinda Gates advise on how to give it away
So, Gates sends it to Africa to fight AIDS, a good cause certainly. I mean since AIDS has been cured in the USA.

But to stop ranting about that. As stated above those that feel they have not paid their fair share Uncle Sam is sure to cash your check and use it to pay down the national debt. How many of these under payers hire accounting firms to find tax deductions so they can keep the money they have? 1040EZ use it and then send more. This will ease your guilty conscience, no?

Me I want to keep the fruits of my labor. I hate paying taxes.

[Tallpine]

As stated above those that feel they have not paid their fair share Uncle Sam is sure to cash your check and use it to pay down the national debt.

Actually, they could even just bid up the price of long term T-bills if they are feeling so damned patiotic 

[Seenterman]

Are you in the top 53%, Seenterman?

Seriously maybe you should stop to read before you post. I'm not on the government dole, I stated that my income is taxed at 38%, that implies that I have a job and uh, yes I pay my taxes. Why would I be complaining if I didn't pay taxes, I wouldn't give a damn!

And that article you linked did you read that or just the headline? Well I'll summarize for you first off its about the tax year 2009, in which the U.S Economy is still suffering from that little thing we called a recession.

About 47 percent will pay no federal income taxes at all for 2009. Either their incomes were too low, or they qualified for enough credits, deductions and exemptions to eliminate their liability.

In recent years, credits for low- and middle-income families have grown so much that a family of four making as much as $50,000 will owe no federal income tax for 2009, as long as there are two children younger than 17, according to a separate analysis by the consulting firm Deloitte Tax.

So basically there are a lot of of poor people who don't make enough to pay the Federal Income tax or they have enough credits and deductions so that they actually receive money from the Feds.  A two parent household with two kids earning 50k a year isn't that well off. That's 25k each minus state and local taxes. Not that much especially in places like New York where the cost of living is much higher than Arizona, that's why we get paid more, its costs more to live here, but the Feds tax all individuals regardless of state the same.  A family living in AZ making 50k a year could probably live pretty comfortably but if a family in New York is making only 50k a year your just above the poverty line. My point being that a family making say 55k a year in New York, probably needs that money more than a family living in AZ making 50K a year. I know of one family personally that has two college age kids working and going to college who received pretty much all their tax money back withheld from their paycheck in returns because their part time students. People like that fall into this category of "their not paying taxes" do you think college students who also work should pay their full tax obligation?

The vast majority of people who escape federal income taxes still pay other taxes, including federal payroll taxes that fund Social Security and Medicare, and excise taxes on gasoline, aviation, alcohol and cigarettes. Many also pay state or local taxes on sales, income and property.

So that nearly 50 % of people who escape the Federal Income tax still pay other taxes to the locals, state, and the feds! To think their paying nothing in taxes is a misconception.

I paid my $3000 per head under my roof.
Did you?
I don't think a person has a RIGHT to demand more taxes unless they are already paying a representative share of the taxes collected.
ETA:  If you didn't pay your fair share for your family, don't worry:  I was handsomely taxed by your friends so that I could "help out" and support 3 people under your roof as well as myself, via income tax.

You ONLY paid $3000 dollars in taxes!! Are you freaking kidding me, I paid more than 3 times that amount this year, in total and actually everyone else in my family paid MORE than that. Heck I would LOVE to pay only $3,000 in taxes. In fact YOUR state is leeching off of ME, maybe you should try pulling YOUR own weight. You should get whatever assumptions you've made out of your head because in fact, I help support you and your state, not the other way around.

 The highest tax bracket in your state is taxed at 4.54% plus you guys get personal exemptions for being single, married, or having kids. In New York the highest tax bracket is 8.97 percent with no personal exemptions except for having kids , which I might add is $1,300 less than what you guys get.  So where am I going with this?

http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/ind_inc.pdf

For every dollar NYS pays to the Feds it receives back 79 cents back, not bad; but Arizona receives 1.19 dollars for every dollar they send to the Feds. Your a welfare state, your sucking up more funds than you produce!! So IMO no YOU didn't pay your fair share but me and my family sure did help you and yours out. Your welcome for that. I don't think that people from states who suck more from the Feds than they contribute should have the RIGHT to even criticize the tax code or propositions to change the tax code.

[AZRedhawk44]

You ONLY paid $3000 dollars in taxes!! Are you freaking kidding me, I paid more than 3 times that amount this year, in total and actually everyone else in my family paid MORE than that. Heck I would LOVE to pay only $3,000 in taxes. In fact YOUR state is leeching off of ME, maybe you should try pulling YOUR own weight. You should get whatever assumptions you've made out of your head because in fact, I help support you and your state, not the other way around.

Read for comprehension, plz:

There may be other federal taxes, MB, but they simply don't amount to the $13.5k I paid in federal taxes last year. I'd estimate the above list for me last year to be approximately $500-$750, all told.

I paid my $3000 per head under my roof.

Did you?

I don't think a person has a RIGHT to demand more taxes unless they are already paying a representative share of the taxes collected.

ETA:  If you didn't pay your fair share for your family, don't worry:  I was handsomely taxed by your friends so that I could "help out" and support 3 people under your roof as well as myself, via income tax.

[Tallpine]

For every dollar NYS pays to the Feds it receives back 79 cents back, not bad; but Arizona receives 1.19 dollars for every dollar they send to the Feds.

About a third of AZ is indian reservation, IIRC ... 

And AZ has a lot of national parks/monuments which are maintained for all the people of the US.

Not to mention all that federal land isn't taxable.

[Seenterman]

the $13.5k I paid in federal taxes last year.

I didn't read ahead I was responding to what you said to me not what you said to MB. So I'm assuming you live in a four / five (dependent??) person household, since you pay 3k a head and in total you paid $13.5k. 

Why did YOU pay it?
Why didn't they pay THEIR tax portion?
I pay my taxes, my mother and father pays theirs together, and my sister pays her own. I paid over 10k in taxes last year and I make the LEAST amount of money in my house, so if you paid 13.5k for your entire household, you got yourself a deal and I'm missing the point your trying to make.

ETA:  If you didn't pay your fair share for your family, don't worry:  I was handsomely taxed by your friends so that I could "help out" and support 3 people under your roof as well as myself, via income tax.

Why are you posting that again? Did you not read again?
Your state Arizona is a welfare state; it leeches more money from the Feds than it contributes. My state contributes more to the Federal budget than it receives. Unfortunately 32 States received more money in Federal Funds than they contribute in Federal taxes; and your state happens to be one of them. If anyone is supporting anyone else its me and my family helping support your state and your family. Arizona got about $65 from me this year, more than 4 times than from my entire family combined. You and your fellow Arizonians are welcome.

If you actually want to do some reading check this article out, it makes the argument that cities such as New York may be paying more than their fair share in federal taxes than in comparison with smaller cities. It may give you some insight on my perspective.  The paper makes no conclusions and looks at the topic impartially, but the paper doesn't take into account make other aspects such as state contributions to the feds, and how much money that state receives from the feds.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~albouy/NTProceed.pdf

[Seenterman]

About a third of AZ is indian reservation, IIRC ...  undecided

And AZ has a lot of national parks/monuments which are maintained for all the people of the US.

Not to mention all that federal land isn't taxable.

True but New York has a lot of Federal / State parks as well. We have 178 States parks, I can't find a number of Federal Parks, but I know we have some. We got Indian reservations too. We have a bigger population, the United Nations, dozens of protected historic sites (some from pretty much the founding of this Country)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_York_state_parks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_Indian_Reservations_in_New_York

http://nysparks.state.ny.us/historic-sites/

Remember New York State isn't just New York City, its got a whole lot more in her than just one city.

[alex_trebek]

True but New York has a lot of Federal / State parks as well. We have 178 States parks, I can't find a number of Federal Parks, but I know we have some. We got Indian reservations too. We have a bigger population, the United Nations, dozens of protected historic sites (some from pretty much the founding of this Country)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_York_state_parks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_Indian_Reservations_in_New_York

http://nysparks.state.ny.us/historic-sites/

Remember New York State isn't just New York City, its got a whole lot more in her than just one city.

Pictures are prettier.

http://www.nationalatlas.gov/printable/images/pdf/fedlands/az.pdf

http://www.nationalatlas.gov/printable/images/pdf/fedlands/ny.pdf

[AZRedhawk44]

Some of the 1.19 you mention is due to Hoover Dam.

I don't think you realize just how much of AZ is federal land or federal installation.

We have multiple air force bases, a marine base, Fort Huachuca (a huge Army intel station), Hoover Dam, huge swathes of BLM land or National Forest that New York isn't capable of matching.  We are a border state (with an actual troubled border... not Canadians, but drug-running Mexicans and regular murders on the border), and we are a desert state that has a lot of farming irrigation infrastructure.  The various dams and reservoirs in AZ are all FedGov projects, to my knowledge. 

Arizona is 114,000 square miles.

New York is 57,000 square miles.

New York would fit inside of Arizona's federal land.

http://www.nationalatlas.gov/printable/images/pdf/fedlands/az.pdf

The whole state of New York is probably smaller than the sum of just our Indian tribal lands.  Hard to tell, it's a tough call looking at the above map.  On that map, anything that ain't white, belongs to Uncle Sam.

http://www.nationalatlas.gov/printable/images/pdf/fedlands/ny.pdf

ALL of New York is white, except for some little specs you have to peer at closely.

There's no comparison.

ETA:  Well done, trebek!  I'll take "The Rapist" (FedGuv) for $1000, please! :-)

[alex_trebek]

ETA:  Well done, trebek!  I'll take "The Rapist" (FedGuv) for $1000, please! :-)

If great minds think alike, then it stands to reason that poor ones do as well.

IOW, I am glad we do not associate in reality. Think of the carnage...
 

[roo_ster]

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2007/04/Executive-Summary-The-Fiscal-Cost-of-Low-Skill-Households-to-the-US-Taxpayer

A household's net fiscal deficit equals the cost of benefits and services received minus taxes paid. If the costs of direct and means-tested benefits, education, and population-based services alone are counted, the average low-skill household had a fiscal deficit of $22,449 (expenditures of $32,138 minus $9,689 in taxes). The average net fiscal deficit of a low-skill household actually exceeded the household's earnings.

If interest and other financial obligations relating to past government activities are added, the average deficit per household rose to $27,301. In addition, the average low-skill household was a free rider with respect to government public goods, receiving public goods costing some $6,095 per household for which it paid nothing.

(Here's one on low-skill immigrants. Similar story. http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2007/05/Executive-Summary-The-Fiscal-Cost-of-Low-Skill-Immigrants-to-the-US-Taxpayer)

[Balog]

Seenterman: you mnever answered my questions.

[AZRedhawk44]

I didn't read ahead I was responding to what you said to me not what you said to MB. So I'm assuming you live in a four / five (dependent??) person household, since you pay 3k a head and in total you paid $13.5k.

Why did YOU pay it?
Why didn't they pay THEIR tax portion?
I pay my taxes, my mother and father pays theirs together, and my sister pays her own. I paid over 10k in taxes last year and I make the LEAST amount of money in my house, so if you paid 13.5k for your entire household, you got yourself a deal and I'm missing the point your trying to make.

In Engrish:

[engrish]

I (me, myself, the singular entity known as AZRedhawk44) paid $13.5k in federal income taxes last year.

I am the only body in my house.

The $3000/head number comes from 300 million people in the US, and approximately $900 billion in income the fedgov derives from the income tax.  That comes out to $3000/head.

I paid a little over 4x my "share."  Just for me.  Myself.  The singular entity.

[/engrish]

[Ned Hamford]

I am going to start believing that AZRedhawk44 paid my personal share of taxes 

For some reason it makes my lounging about and playing video games all the more enjoyable. 

Ned 'Too Doughy For Real Work' Hamford
 

[Tallpine]

The $3000/head number comes from 300 million people in the US, and approximately $900 billion in income the fedgov derives from the income tax.  That comes out to $3000/head.

Paying for "cubic" ?   

[DustinD]

We should do like some countries and set a tax cap. Make it so that if you pay $5,000 give or take to the feds you do not have any more federal tax obligations or paper work to deal with. I would do the same for corporations as well, it would make income taxes for most of us much easier. I doubt most people would accept such a low rate, but the idea has merit.

[sanglant]

i say we should put a tip jar in the dmv and postoffice to fund the gooberment

[AZRedhawk44]

i say we should put a tip jar in the dmv and postoffice to fund the gooberment

:-)

Or they can just do candy bar and bake sales.

Nancy Pelosi can be America's neighborhood Avon lady.