Author Topic: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us  (Read 55049 times)

Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #100 on: March 21, 2011, 12:22:38 PM »
Awesome.  Now the Arab League is pissed off that we're actually enforcing the no fly zone.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12803222
The Arab League is covering their bases. If this Libya business goes sour for some reason, they can tell their people that they never wanted or expected the Great Satan to do anything but enforce a no-fly zone, and this is just typical American oppression of an innocent guy like Gadaffi.

This sort of two-facedness tells me that the Middle East is ripe for democracy.  :laugh:

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #101 on: March 21, 2011, 12:33:47 PM »
Bush maintained that he didn't need it - it was all politics.  His admin wholeheartedly and explicitly embraced the Clinton doctrine.   Yes he did get approval in the end, but his policies were still to promote that kind of executive power.


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #102 on: March 21, 2011, 12:36:31 PM »
The Arab League is covering their bases. If this Libya business goes sour for some reason, they can tell their people that they never wanted or expected the Great Satan to do anything but enforce a no-fly zone, and this is just typical American oppression of an innocent guy like Gadaffi.

This sort of two-facedness tells me that the Middle East is ripe for democracy.  :laugh:


wow!  i gotta hand it to you that was a very good summation and shows a better grasp of the reality than most of the folks we elect in dc. its great to hear it from you though i am moved to great sadness by the fact the folks in dc don't/won't get it
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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griz

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #103 on: March 21, 2011, 12:40:38 PM »
I was going by Article 1 Section 8 that says Congress shall have the power to declare War.  I am aware that it also says the President shall be the Commander in Chief, and I'll readily admit I am not a Constitutional scholar so I have a simple approach to the matter.  But since we were not actually invaded, or in imminent Danger, it seems in the couple of weeks it took to decide to begin acts of war he could have mentioned it to congress.  If your position is that sending missiles to destroy military assets is not and act of war, please tell me at what stage does an attack become an act of war?
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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #104 on: March 21, 2011, 12:47:16 PM »
If by "he did get approval in the end" you really mean "he got approval well in advance", then you'd be correct.

What HTG wrote.

I may not like what BtL did, or how he did it, but he bent over backwards to comply with the COTUS declaration of war bits, the War Power Act bits, as well as common sense by getting Congress to sign on to the deal.  Not to mention putting on a show for the savages and thugs at the UN.

BTW, bravo on uniting two (or more) posters who were at odds over another issue.  Keep it up and they might call you "The Hanging Lawyer," as you manage to get all your clients tossed into the hoosegow serving maximum sentences.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #105 on: March 21, 2011, 01:23:26 PM »
Bush maintained that he didn't need it - it was all politics.  His admin wholeheartedly and explicitly embraced the Clinton doctrine.   Yes he did get approval in the end, but his policies were still to promote that kind of executive power.

Sweet baby xenu, I hope that if I'm ever charged with a crime I can get you to be my lawyer.  You just don't quit, do you?  Since when is 4 months in advance "in the end"?
JD

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #106 on: March 21, 2011, 01:44:46 PM »
"But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors...and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history." -B.O., in 2002

But I guess Gadaffi was poised to reduce D.C. to rubble, right?
JD

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AZRedhawk44

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #107 on: March 21, 2011, 02:02:28 PM »
I'm confused...

Why do we care if Bush (yay Bush! / grumblegrumble I hate Bush!) or Obama ( hopechange! / pinkocommiesissy ) is in the White House?  Why can't we examine the merits of military involvement based upon the environment and American interests, rather than the politics of the office holder?

I don't care if Obama's a hypocrite on this issue, or if Bush is 100% consistent on this issue.  I don't care about Obama's previous quotes on the issue, prior to understanding the international politics of the office of the President of the United States.

I'd be bagging on Bush for waiting 2 weeks and allowing the insurgency to be nearly crushed... the same as I am bagging on Obama for it.  If you want to oust a dictator, then help the insurgency BEFORE they get turned into hamburger by air superiority.

And I'd be bagging on both/either of them for spending American lives on yet another dark-ages bunghole in the Middle East.  Europe was happy handling this one.  Way to go, guys.  Let the French and the Brits handle it.

To me... there will ALWAYS be a Middle East bunghole on which to expend Western lives.  At what point do we learn that it's just not worth it?

Let the West be the West.  Let the dark-ages Middle East be it's nasty incestuous Caliphate.  When the Caliphate comes knocking to change our lives, nuke it into extinction.  Otherwise, I just don't care.  Why aren't we in Burma/Myanmar?  Why aren't we in half the countries in Africa?  Why aren't we in Timor?  Why aren't we in Western China?

Because we can't be everywhere that Democratic Injustice exists.  We can't protect everyone's right to Liberty.

Also, liberty doesn't have a very good track record in places where it's "given" rather than "taken."

Some may argue that with modern technology, it's impossible for a lay militia force to overthrow a complex government with high tech military assets.  It may or may not be true.  Maybe Libyans have demonstrated enough resolve to earn a "leveling" of the playing field by Western military intervention against air assets.  The French helped the US with naval power during the Revolutionary War.  I appreciate that point.

But we've spread a LOT of democracy around.  Let's let someone else do it for a bit.
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Boomhauer

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #108 on: March 21, 2011, 02:08:57 PM »
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The French helped the US with naval power during the Revolutionary War

And weapons, supplies, and training. And it wasn't in interest of helping the Continentals, it was to hurt France's enemy Great Britain.



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roo_ster

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #109 on: March 21, 2011, 03:04:01 PM »
"Are We Dumber Than a Hamster?" asks Mark Krikorian at ANtional Review.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/262481/are-we-dumber-hamster-mark-krikorian

"The debate over whether we should invade Libya reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Lisa puts an electrode in a cupcake to see whether her brother Bart or a hamster will be the first to figure out not to touch it. The hamster figures it out after one shock, while Bart keeps grabbing at the cupcake and getting shocked, over and over and over again...

...everyone knows we’ll end up staying to pacify the country, trying in vain to reconcile one gang of cretinous barbarians with the neighboring gang of cretinous barbarians."

Read the whole thing.
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roo_ster

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roo_ster

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Libyan rebels: “Now is the time of Jihad!”
« Reply #110 on: March 21, 2011, 03:09:28 PM »
Libyan rebels: “Now is the time of Jihad!”

http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/03/20/libyan-rebels-%E2%80%9Cnow-is-the-time-of-jihad%E2%80%9D/

This will not end well.
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roo_ster

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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Libyan rebels: “Now is the time of Jihad!”
« Reply #111 on: March 21, 2011, 03:22:12 PM »
Libyan rebels: “Now is the time of Jihad!”

http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/03/20/libyan-rebels-%E2%80%9Cnow-is-the-time-of-jihad%E2%80%9D/

This will not end well.

I'm not worried about that.

I wish they talked about "freedom" rather than Jihad, but it seems to be the only higher calling that the Islamic world is capable of understanding.

If they implode into their own Jihads against one another for a couple decades, I'd be happy.

And if "Jihad" comes to mean "quit screwing with my chances at a happy life... I'm starving and I'm poor and I want a freakin' opportunity to accomplish to the greatest ability I can so that I can do honor upon Mohamed (peace be upon him)" then so be it.  I'm okay with that sentiment.

They haven't declared Jihad against Westernism.  They've declared Jihad against a tyrant.

I like that, so far.
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mtnbkr

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #112 on: March 21, 2011, 03:24:22 PM »
Yup and Yup.  I hope the costs are worth it next time we're bitching about the budget and overall state of the economy. I can accept getting mixed up in stuff like this when we're not suffering financially, but this is like buying a car after maxing out your CCs and taking out a Home Equity Loan.

Chris

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #113 on: March 21, 2011, 04:03:55 PM »
How much do you expect this to actually cost?

You mentioned $1 trillion earlier, but I can only assume that was a joke. 

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #114 on: March 21, 2011, 04:08:55 PM »
Well....how much does a tomahawk miss le cost? We already used 120 of them....
JD

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #115 on: March 21, 2011, 04:09:10 PM »
How much do you expect this to actually cost?

You mentioned $1 trillion earlier, but I can only assume that was a joke.  

Obama spends by the trillion, not by the billion and certainly not by the million.

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mtnbkr

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #116 on: March 21, 2011, 05:33:08 PM »
How much do you expect this to actually cost?

You mentioned $1 trillion earlier, but I can only assume that was a joke. 

No clue, but as I've pointed out, those missiles aren't free and we're using enough of them.  Then there's the operational costs associated with the action (beyond the munitions).

Yes, the trillion dollar comment was a a joke (you have to ask?).  Kind of seems pointless to say "throw another m/b/illion on the debt" since we do that daily without firing missiles at a 3rd world shithole.

But you do learn who's serious about debt reduction when it comes time to take shots at 3rd worlders.

Chris

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Re: Libyan rebels: “Now is the time of Jihad!”
« Reply #117 on: March 21, 2011, 05:34:33 PM »
Historical fact: At least one major Muslim religious authority refers to America's war against the Wahabbis as a Jihad and urges the faithful to be ready to help out.
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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #118 on: March 21, 2011, 05:52:26 PM »
Well....how much does a tomahawk miss le cost? We already used 120 of them....

A quick Google search claims $569K apiece when purchased, but the replacement cost could be significantly higher.
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Re: Libyan rebels: “Now is the time of Jihad!”
« Reply #119 on: March 21, 2011, 05:53:36 PM »
Historical fact: At least one major Muslim religious authority refers to America's war against the Wahabbis as a Jihad and urges the faithful to be ready to help out.

At least one major Christian religious church thinks soldiers dying is just punishment for America's lax views on homosexuality. A greater number of major religious leaders think every large natural disaster is God punshing X people for Y sinfulness.
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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #120 on: March 21, 2011, 06:50:57 PM »
A quick Google search claims $569K apiece when purchased, but the replacement cost could be significantly higher.


Plus the cost of repositioning forces to enforce the no fly zone, fuel and munitions to be expended, contractors to be paid, and I'm sure with a new crisis Obama will need to go play golf again.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #121 on: March 21, 2011, 06:56:35 PM »

Also, seems the no-fly coalition is falling apart. 

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Perd Hapley

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #122 on: March 21, 2011, 07:13:54 PM »
Plus the cost of repositioning forces to enforce the no fly zone, fuel and munitions to be expended, contractors to be paid, and I'm sure with a new crisis Obama will need to go play golf again.

Local talk show guy called him The Puppy President. If you wanna distract him, just throw a ball in front of him.

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Seenterman

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #123 on: March 21, 2011, 07:41:08 PM »
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The only thing that bothers me is the hypocrisy.

Bush removes saddam. "ZOMGILLEGALWESHOULDNTBEREMOVINGDICTATORSITSNOTOURJOB"

Obama strikes Libya. No problems.

Major comparison fail. Nothing about the two situations are alike.

First off what was Iraq doing that was threatening the U.S. that we needed to invade immediately? Their involvement in 9/11? Nope, that wasn't them, that was the Saudi's and Paki's. Their WMD's? That turned out to be cherry picked nonsense. The Iraqi people weren't in open revolt being slaughtered via air strikes by Saddam. The Libya people are actively calling for international aid in setting up a no fly zone, an emissary was set to Britain a few days ago IIRC. The U.N. hadn't approved our actions in Iraqi, this time their organizing the response. The best comparison to Libya and Iraq would be after the first Gulf War in which we encouraged the people to revolt against Saddam, and when they did we left them to be slaughtered.  So what about these two situations are similar again?  ???

And for everyone frustrated that Obama didn't do anything sooner, I understand the sentiment but we couldn't afford to go this alone. Not politically, militarily, or financially.

1. We couldn't go into Libya with out U.N. approval or else it would have spurred talk of "American colonization of the middle east. Didn't want those accusation flying around. Heck apparently the Arab league is already upset with how where handling the no fly zone. Imagine how much worse it would have been if we hadn't have gotten their go head.

2. Our military forces are stretched thin as is, no need to explain further to this group, but we couldn't do this alone; we needed a multinational force with U.N. approval for this to work out in the long run. Nor should we be responsible for every time a dictator has to be deposed but since we are the Brightest Beacon of Freedom in the world it would be nice to help out. Set an example for other countries to follow.

3. This has already been mentioned in the thread, but fighting a war ain't cheap, and we shouldn't have to pick up the whole tab to rid the world of an unstable dictator.

If you want to criticize Obama for his lack of leadership up until this moment, go ahead. You won't hear me defending him, because it shouldn't have taken the U.N. to decided that this is the "right" thing to do before he said something, he should have been pressuring the U.N. from the minute those civilians started getting bombed, be he didn't and that is a monumental failure on his behalf.  But damn, Obama's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't, theres really no pleasing some people no matter what he does.


longeyes

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #124 on: March 21, 2011, 07:43:09 PM »
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They haven't declared Jihad against Westernism.  They've declared Jihad against a tyrant.

Show us a Muslim nation that isn't run by a tyrant.  Islam requires totalitarianism.
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