*CENSOREDUNPRINTABLE* furnace!!!!

[280plus]

Just remember, if you do all the little stuff yourself and we can't make a living we might not be there when you really do need us.

[Firethorn]

Just remember, if you do all the little stuff yourself and we can't make a living we might not be there when you really do need us.

I hire you guys to do the annual inspection/cleanout of my boiler. 

If I had had the knowledge, I would have done the necessary work on my mother's boiler last year when the company in town was blatanatly ripping her off, all the while screaming that her boiler is obsolete, a death trap, and needs to be replaced immediately (for $15,000).

She managed to find a semi-retired independent who did what the other company didn't, and returned the critter to flawless operation for about $1,000.

Unfortuantly there's no 'fixing' a cracked boiler, though I got the replacement for closer to $10k due to my using the government system and getting 3 bids.   

Since then I've been tossing the company that installed it the annual cleaning/maintenance jobs.  I've looked at wood/pellet, but I'm just not in the house enough to make that make sense, maybe once I've retired.

[280plus]

That's all I ask. :)

By the same token if you DON'T call me to service your stuff don't expect I'll jump out of bed at 3 am and come running to make your stuff work again.  Or Saturday afternoon after you've already been trying to fix it yourself for 3 days. 

[Brad Johnson]

By the same token if you DON'T call me to service your stuff don't expect I'll jump out of bed at 3 am and come running to make your stuff work again.  Or Saturday afternoon after you've already been trying to fix it yourself for 3 days. 

Dad is one of the world's worst about stuff like that.  Truck is making a clattery-clunky noise?  Hey, it still gets him where he wants to go so no need to deal with it now while it's convenient and probably an easy and relatively inexpensive fix.  The time to worry about it is at 11:00 on a Saturday night when you are stranded in the middle of nowhere because the water pump bearing finally completely failed, letting the fan take a joyride into the radiator. Oh, and don't forget to not replace (or even carry a spare for) the blown power socket fuse that would let you use the phone you didn't put on the charger last night.

Cost to fix the water pump AND replace the ruined radiator after the bearing let go?  $900
Walking across backwoods ranch country, at midnight, in the mud, getting to the highway to flag someone down?  Eight miles and four miserable hours in a drizzling rain.
The gleeful joy my brother and I have reminding him of it when he keeps doing the same kind of thing?  Over?  And Over?  And Over?  Priceless!

What would it have cost to replace the water pump when it began making noise?  $150 for parts and couple hours in a comfy air-conditioned shop. (The same shop he spend most of the time in any way, puttering around working on his Model A.)

Sometime when you need a good laugh I'll tell you about the documentation packet left inside their home's HVAC blower cage.  For a couple years.

Brad

[K Frame]

Just remember, if you do all the little stuff yourself and we can't make a living we might not be there when you really do need us.

Which explains why you haven't answered my private message. :D

Actually, if we keep bouncing checks on you because we can't afford the prices for the little stuff, what difference would there be...

[lupinus]

Or Saturday afternoon after you've already been trying to fix it yourself for 3 days. 

Do you have the special "handed me a box of pre-dissasemled parts" surcharge? :D

Sent via tapatalk

[280plus]

Do you have the special "handed me a box of pre-dissasemled parts" surcharge? :D

Sent via tapatalk

LOL Actually that would just fall under the umbrella of the all encompassing "Pain in the ass" surcharge. Which is not quite as bad as the "Mercedes, Beemer, Lincloln, FRIGGIN BENTLEY, or some such in the garage" surcharge. 

 

[Brad Johnson]

How about the "That's not how they did it on HGTV!" surcharge?  Second only to the "I have a PhD in Engineering!" surcharge, of course.

Brad

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Oh yes
Engineers joined airline pilots and lobbyists on the "special list"


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[280plus]

Yes,there's not much I like better than making senior aerospace engineers feel dumb.

Meanwhile, I had a pilot come into the range the other day.You know how I know he was a pilot? He told me.

[AmbulanceDriver]

HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEY

Remember this thread?

Time for an update....  It's been an excitable weekend here at Casa Driver....

Some of you may have seen it on the book of faces. 

Well, Thursday night, SWMBO was out running a couple of errands out with the girls, and I was working on dinner.  Well, a couple minutes in, I hear the smoke alarm start to go off down the hall.   Not my cooking, so I shut the stove off and go figure out what the heck is going on.   No visible smoke, so I hit the hush button, since I'm thinking maybe it was steam or something - not really likely, but that was the first guess.   Start to walk away, and it starts going again.  Hrm, says I, this is odd...  So I turn around, and sure enough, I'm starting to smell something - smells like a hot electrical element or similar.   And now I'm seeing a light haze of smoke under the cold air return (wasn't obvious that this was the source, but that's where it was kinda hanging).

Crap.

Grab the dog, call 911 as I'm walking out the door, and toss him in the truck while I wait for the cavalry to arrive.   Well, I learned something interesting that night about how Clackamas Fire District handles things.   Let's just say, they're "proactive".   Portland fire, smoke in a structure, as long as it's not heavy black smoke, they send a single engine company to investigate.   Clackamas, oh, they send a full box.  Three engine companies, a truck company, and a batt chief.  Well, at least the neighbors are entertained. 

So they get here, do their thing, thermal imaging cameras on everything, send the junior man up into my attic with a TIC, yada yada.   About thirty minutes later, they give the all clear.  Talking to the captain from the first in company, and he's explaining everything they checked, and what they found, didn't find, etc.  And he says that from what he was smelling, he's thinking it's the furnace.

Next morning, call the furnace company out.  They get a tech out here couple hours after my call (first really good sign I'm gonna like this company) and he digs right in.   Starts running tests on the furnace, checking everything out.   'Bout an hour later, he gives the verdict.

First off, this furnace is 27 years old.  I knew it was old, just didn't realize it was *that* old.   Lasted 7-9 years longer than what they normally last.

Main blower motor is on the way out - in fact, that's what caused the smoke in the cold air return.  Motor locked up, overheated, and let the magic smoke out.  He was able to get it going again by manually spinning it as it was trying to start up, but who knows when it's going to lock up again.

Draft inducer motor has at least one bearing going bad. 

Heat exchanger tubes overheated due to the burners going with the blower locked up.  Embrittled, eroded, unknown how much life is left in them (27 years old, remember, so probably not that much life left in them to begin with).

Pressure limit switch is toast.  Totally dead.  He tried cleaning it and tested it again, no go.  So now the board won't signal the igniter to go and the gas valve to open even with the blower motor turning again. 

He looks at me, and gives me the news.  He likes fixing things.  He wants to fix it - but he feels that our furnace just isn't fixable - at least not in a really feasible manner.  Easily 2 grand to fix everything that's wrong with this thing.  And that's with no real guarantee that something won't fail soon - and doesn't include replacing the heat exchanger, either.... 

So we set up an appointment to talk new furnaces...  Cause not only is this thing old, it's an 80% efficient model (when it was first installed) and probably has lost some of that to boot over the last 27 years.  Tech ballparked it was probably around 70%, maybe even worse.

We retreated to my in-laws for the weekend since we didn't have heat, and the house was getting downright chilly.  Space heaters can only do so much. 

And tomorrow, we get our brand spanking new, 96% efficient unit installed.  Including a brush through duct cleaning for the entire hot and cold system in the house, we're looking at just under 7 grand installed.   We could have saved a couple grand by going with another 80% unit, but realistically, I figure we're gonna be saving money in a few years based on the difference in price and efficiency.

Another plus with this company - we're sitting here discussing options with the sales guy Friday night, and he glances over and sees my work jacket hanging on a hook.  "You a first responder?"  "Well, I was in the field for a number of years, and now I'm in dispatch."  "Ok, we'll I'm gonna give you our 5% first responder discount then."  You know he didn't have to do that.  Didn't even have to mention it - and we had no idea they even offered that.  But he spoke up and told us about it.   Was a right nice thing for him to do for us.

[Jim147]

I just don't charge enough.

[AmbulanceDriver]

It would be one heck of a long call for you to come out here to Portland, OR, too... :D

[zxcvbob]

I had a 90-something percent efficient furnace with a single-speed blower (less than 96%, 93 maybe?) and a normal efficiency water heater installed in 2015.  I think it was about $3500 for all of it.

The old furnace was still doing just fine, it was the water heater that went out, and they were vented together.  Decided the furnace was overdue so I replaced both of them; I sure like the new furnace.

[Scout26]

er.  I hope.

Now I've got a big fire going in the fireplace (*really* wishing we'd gotten the insert we were looking at last season!)

Did you ever get the fireplace insert.  I regret not getting mine 20 years ago....

[AmbulanceDriver]

Did you ever get the fireplace insert.  I regret not getting mine 20 years ago....

Nope, Mrs was stuck on a pellet stove insert (and I want regular wood burning).    I think between this and last winter (out of power a couple times in the middle of an unusual oregon snow storm) is going to win her to my side - especially since our furnace guy is actually getting rid of his pellet stoves to go wood burning.   

[K Frame]

I'd go wood or coal...

If I had a place to store wood or coal.

[mtnbkr]

I'd go wood or coal...

If I had a place to store wood or coal.

I understand wood, because it being something you can more or less acquire yourself, but why coal if pellet isn't good enough?  Both require someone else's supply line.  I would think coal is more troublesome to acquire than pellet in most areas of the country.  I can't say I've ever known anyone to heat with coal except you.

Chris

[cordex]

I keep wanting to get a kerosene heater because I have fond memories about warming up by one during the winter as a kid. Maybe the same kind of reason for Mike?

[K Frame]

Who said pellets aren't good enough? I'm looking at pellet stoves because I'm here. Were I back in Pennsylvania, where coal is plentiful and cheap, especially anthracite, I'd be going with that.

There are advantages and drawbacks to all of them.

You are correct that the farther you get from where coal is mined, the more expensive and difficult it is to get it. That's why I'm not considering a coal stove now (not to mention the fact that they need a chiminey, and a pellet stove doesn't).

You can acquire wood yourself IF you have the resources to do so -- land or access to wood lots. Otherwise, you pay someone for it -- someone else's supply line.

Wood also tends to be one hell of a lot more labor intensive -- cutting, splitting, stacking.

Coal is a highly concentrated form of heat, especially anthracite.

A cord of good hardwood has about 24 million BTU, and takes up a space of 4 feet by 4 feet by 8 feet, or 128 cubic feet.

A ton of anthracite stove coal has about 28 million BTU per ton. But in that same 4x4x8 foot space you can put nearly 3.5 tons of coal.

You also forget that I grew up in Pennsylvania -- coal capital of the world, and one of the largest sources of anthracite coal in the world. I knew more than a few people who still heated with coal when I was a kid, either in furnaces or with batch stoves, so I'm more than used to it.

Anthracite coal has some other significant advantages over wood. Its far more clean burning, producing virtually no smoke or soot. And chimney fires, a distinct possibility with wood, are non-existent with coal, because coal creates no creosote.

And most batch feed coal burning stoves only need to be tended twice a day, as opposed to 3 or more times a day for wood. Not a big difference, no.

One of the big drawbacks to coal is that it produces a lot more ash than wood, and unlike wood ash, that you can generally spread on lawns and gardens, coal ash is something you have to dispose of.

This is from 1982, but it's an interesting article. https://www.csmonitor.com/1982/1028/102831.html

It is worth noting that 1982 was the height of the gypsy moth caterpillar kill in the east, and the state of Pennsylvania was begging people to take permits to cut dead standing trees because of the fear of fires. More than a few people I knew were able to timber off enough maple, oak, and ash in 2 or 3 summers that the were able to heat their homes for the better part of a decade.

That's no longer the case. Permits are expensive and highly restrictive.

[mtnbkr]

I figured you were moving away from pellets since that is normally in your list of stoves you're going to buy.  I didn't forget you grew up in PA, you remind us every opportunity you get.   However, I did not assume the home coal market and infrastructure of 40 years ago is still in place today.

I'm aware of the thermal benefits of coal, but not living anywhere where coal was commonly used, it always seemed unusual and exotic as a fuel source (even in SW VA where coal is more common geographically).  Coal as a household fuel was something you saw in the movies, not at your neighbor's house.  With the downturn in the coal industry, I wonder how long it will remain a viable fuel source even in PA.

Chris

[K Frame]

"I figured you were moving away from pellets since that is normally in your list of stoves you're going to buy."

Didn't mean to give that impression. As long as I'm down here in Virginia and in my current house, I'm only looking wood pellets.

"I didn't forget you grew up in PA, you remind us every opportunity you get."

You'd better not, or you rue the day! Go ahead, start ruing!


"However, I did not assume the home coal market and infrastructure of 40 years ago is still in place today."

That's a really hard question to answer effectively.

Post World War II there was a massive move to convert from coal to oil-fired home heating because of the convenience. Often this involved simply sticking a oil burner gun into the existing coal boiler or furnace. That's how they did it in the home I grew up in. Generally inefficient as all hell, but when heating oil is 8 cents a gallon (roughly what it was in 1947-48, or about 83 cents in today's money), plus not having to shovel coal and ash, you jump on it.

The house my Dad grew up in (my Mom's house in Lewistown) kept the coal boiler until about 1959 when Dad and Grandpa put in an oil unit.

But not everyone converted. As I said, a lot of people I knew when I was growing up still had coal furnaces, coal cookstoves, and coal parlor stoves.

Coal dealers still existed to service those customers. There weren't as many coal dealers, they didn't service as many customers, but they were still there, and most often they had also branched out into home heating oil delivery to make up for the loss in coal customers.

Then came the Arab oil embargos of the 1970s and 1980s. Those people who heated with coal were in a much better position when some of the heating oil shortages and price spikes began to bite, and those people who were affected began to look at other methods of keeping warm.

Kerosene heaters and newly manufactured high efficiency wood and coal stoves all started hitting the market in a big way in the mid to late 1970s. Just off the top of my head I can thing of at least 2 dozen families in my circle of friends and acquaintances who installed alternate heating devices, and many of them installed either coal stoves, or combination wood-coal stoves.

A quick google search reveals that there are at least 30 coal dealers within a 100 mile radius of where I grew up, and there are at least 3 in or near the town where Mom's house is.

And that's just loose coal, delivered by the ton.

That doesn't include bagged rice coal, which is used in stoker stoves that operate very similarly to pellet stoves.


Given the continuing rise in home heating costs with oil, I think you're going to see coal be a viable heating medium for a long time, at least in areas where coal is readily available.

[charby]

I'm more than likely going to put a pellet stove in my basement rec room in a few years. I just want something I can turn on in the evening or weekends for supplemental heat in the basement. Turn on the furnace fan and circulate throughout the house.

I'd like to put in my three season porch, but it is 250 sq feet and I think I would roast myself out there. I may get a the smallest pellet stove and leave the door to the house open when I'm running it.

[K Frame]

You'd be better off putting the pellet stove in your basement. If you can, there are more than a few models that you can plum right into your heating system.

What do you have, oil or gas?

[charby]

You'd be better off putting the pellet stove in your basement. If you can, there are more than a few models that you can plum right into your heating system.

What do you have, oil or gas?

Natural Gas, I'm going to put in a gas insert into my fireplace in time. I have the 1950's Frank Lloyd Wright knockoff wall of roman brick fireplace.

I want to do two separate pellet stoves, the basement one is going to be a stand alone unit in the rec room.

3 season porch will be a separate heat source in time. I need to replace the windows first before I do anything, eventually going to make it a lounge area because it offers a nice view of the "lake" I live on.