Author Topic: They never give up (CRT Division)  (Read 2127 times)

Hawkmoon

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They never give up (CRT Division)
« on: April 16, 2022, 01:07:34 PM »
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/florida-rejects-dozens-of-math-textbooks-over-alleged-references-to-crt/ar-AAWhrUD

TLDR: Florida has banned a number of math textbooks because the books include CRT

How would any legitimate educator think that Critical race Theory has anything toi do with teaching Johnny that 2+2 = 4? There is no question for me: we are engaged in a battle for sanity of cosmic proportions.

From the article:

Quote
Democratic Florida state lawmaker Anna Eskamani said Friday that she requested a full list of the banned textbooks.

"I wonder if these math books highlighted statistics of racial disparities & that's what they don't like?," she asked on Twitter. "If those statistics make you uncomfortable maybe do something about it instead of erase them?"

What difference does it make? IF (and that's a big "if" in my mind) such discussions have any place at all in schools from K-12, it's not in math classes. I don't think many high schools even touch on probability and statistics. If they do, it's entirely possible to teach it without involving [questionable] numbers about "racial disparity." The advanced placement math class at my high school included some probability and statistics in senior year. Miraculously, we were able to assimilate the concepts without any references to "racial disparity."
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HankB

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Re: They never give up (CRT Division)
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2022, 06:50:58 PM »
. . . How would any legitimate educator think that Critical race Theory has anything toi do with teaching Johnny that 2+2 = 4? . . . 
Well, if the White Supremacist patriarchy tells a young MSOC (Math Student of Color) that his answer of 2+2=6 is wrong, he's just imposing his Eurocentric world view and is failing to appreciate the beautiful life experiences and cultural richness of a diverse student body.

 :facepalm:

Let's see . . . 8 years of math in elementary school, 4 years in high school, numerous math classes in college . . . I remember NO social engineering in ANY of those classes. Insane woke stuff has nothing to do with teaching mathematics. Math books that incorporate politics in the lessons ought not be chosen for use in the schools since they're clearly NOT focused on the actual subject matter.
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sumpnz

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Re: They never give up (CRT Division)
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2022, 07:14:06 PM »
My oldest is in Running Start (dual enrollment for high school and community college).  Her calculus teacher asked what some students liked for books (not math book, just books for reading).  My daughter said anything by Tolkien.  He went off on how Tolkien was “problematic” and gave a list of LGBTQIAWTFBBQ authors.

Hawkmoon

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Re: They never give up (CRT Division)
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2022, 08:41:31 PM »
Meanwhile, according to an article in the local weekly birdcage liner, the school board is defending increasing the budget even though the student population will decline, because of additions to the staff. One is a teacher for acting and film directing -- that's bad enough for a public high school. Worse: they're adding a position for someone to facilitate diversity, equity, and inclusion in the curriculum. Which sounds to me like woke code for CRT.
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zxcvbob

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Re: They never give up (CRT Division)
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2022, 11:36:28 PM »
My oldest is in Running Start (dual enrollment for high school and community college).  Her calculus teacher asked what some students liked for books (not math book, just books for reading).  My daughter said anything by Tolkien.  He went off on how Tolkien was “problematic” and gave a list of LGBTQIAWTFBBQ authors.

She learned a valuable lesson.  The correct answer was "That's none of your business"
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HankB

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Re: They never give up (CRT Division)
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2022, 10:02:52 AM »
. . .  Worse: they're adding a position for someone to facilitate diversity, equity, and inclusion in the curriculum. Which sounds to me like woke code for CRT.
Some years back the local newspaper had a forum where readers could express opinions. When discussing funding shortfalls for the local school district, they solicited suggestions for saving money. Mine was "Fire everyone with the word "Diversity" in their job title or job description." This was QUITE popular judging by numerous follow-up posts from other readers, but the paper's staffers didn't like it - at all.

After several other instances of editorial writers (both staffers and guests) being handed their heads - rhetorically, of course - for their idiotic views on a variety of issues, the paper discontinued their on line forum.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

cordex

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Re: They never give up (CRT Division)
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2022, 08:54:16 AM »
She learned a valuable lesson.  The correct answer was "That's none of your business"
Maybe, but there can also be value in staking out a position and defending it.  If no one does that, then it just normalizes the crazy.

"Dude, your face is problematic.  I think I'll choose my favorite authors based on the quality of their literature, not on their naughty bits, or what they like to do with their naughty bits.  Frankly, given the propensity for woke types to lack any marketable skills I'm strongly doubting your capacity to teach a technical subject like calculus.  If you don't start doing the job I'm paying you to I'm going to tell your boss to put me in a class with a calculus teacher who teaches calculus instead of of political indoctrination.  Now dance, monkey."

MechAg94

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Re: They never give up (CRT Division)
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2022, 09:37:35 AM »
IMO, the valuable lesson is that school teachers are not your friends.  They are there to teach a specific subject.  Their opinions on other matters don't matter.  Also, the purpose of the question was for the teacher to tell everyone what books to read.  The teacher did not care about the kid's opinions at all.
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JTHunter

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Re: They never give up (CRT Division)
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2022, 05:00:02 PM »
Maybe, but there can also be value in staking out a position and defending it.  If no one does that, then it just normalizes the crazy.

"Dude, your face is problematic.  I think I'll choose my favorite authors based on the quality of their literature, not on their naughty bits, or what they like to do with their naughty bits.  Frankly, given the propensity for woke types to lack any marketable skills I'm strongly doubting your capacity to teach a technical subject like calculus.  If you don't start doing the job I'm paying you to I'm going to tell your boss to put me in a class with a calculus teacher who teaches calculus instead of of political indoctrination.  Now dance, monkey."

 :rofl: :rofl: >:D :rofl: :rofl: [popcorn]
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Brad Johnson

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Re: They never give up (CRT Division)
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2022, 05:18:19 PM »
From the title I though this was going to be a thread about artisanal TV production.

Brad
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Perd Hapley

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Re: They never give up (CRT Division)
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2022, 05:24:52 PM »
Meanwhile, according to an article in the local weekly birdcage liner, the school board is defending increasing the budget even though the student population will decline, because of additions to the staff. One is a teacher for acting and film directing -- that's bad enough for a public high school. Worse: they're adding a position for someone to facilitate diversity, equity, and inclusion in the curriculum. Which sounds to me like woke code for CRT.

Of course it is. They've been running this scam for a long time. Plead for more education funding, for the children. Use said funds to hire more admin and professional lefties. Grades don't improve, so repeat the process.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: They never give up (CRT Division)
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2022, 06:19:32 PM »
She learned a valuable lesson.  The correct answer was "That's none of your business"

Or "Brave New World and 1984"
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Ben

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WLJ

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Re: They never give up (CRT Division)
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2022, 07:11:46 PM »
Which a teacher's organization has just recommended banning from reading lists.

https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2022/04/18/burning-books-for-me-but-not-for-thee-gosh-heres-a-list-of-books-public-school-teachers-and-librarians-want-to-ban/

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HeroHog

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Re: They never give up (CRT Division)
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2022, 08:03:43 PM »
My 1st thought was: Cathode Ray Tube? Where the hell would you find a working one these days and WHY?
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HankB

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Re: They never give up (CRT Division)
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2022, 12:07:23 AM »
My 1st thought was: Cathode Ray Tube? Where the hell would you find a working one these days and WHY?
LOL . . . I still think of BLM as Bureau of Land Management.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: They never give up (CRT Division)
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2022, 01:38:23 AM »
Meanwhile, according to an article in the local weekly birdcage liner, the school board is defending increasing the budget even though the student population will decline, because of additions to the staff. One is a teacher for acting and film directing -- that's bad enough for a public high school. Worse: they're adding a position for someone to facilitate diversity, equity, and inclusion in the curriculum. Which sounds to me like woke code for CRT.

I would go the opposite direction as a lot of you here, I think.  Schools need MORE fine arts and broader curriculum offerings.  More shop class.  More agricultural sciences.  More drama, more band, more chorus.

Schools need LESS standardized tests and redundant courses that repeat the same tired material in an effort to hammer it into the recalcitrant.  They need F's to have consequences that wind up filtering the problematic kids out of the way of those that are eager to learn in a rich environment.  Local school boards need autonomy in their curriculum offerings to fit their communities.  New York City schools don't need ag sciences, but rural Iowa schools do.

Who knows?  Maybe San Francisco folks need schools that offer gay and trans sensitivity classes and homeless empathy and empowerment classes.  I dunno.  But I kind of doubt that a kid with A's in those subjects is going to have greater appeal to MIT than a kid from flyover country with A's in shop class, calculus, physics, band, and CAD.  Maybe those SanFran educated kids are suitable to work at all the stores that get robbed daily by people that never get prosecuted due to SanFran's peculiar legal code.  Good for them, I guess.

I'd love to see some sort of actual consequence to all these standardized tests.  I'd propose:
1.  For students that score in the top 10 percentile, exemption from tests the following year
2.  For students that score in the bottom 25 percentile, ineligibility to take fine arts and broad curriculum.  Get your Three R's down.
3.  For districts that score in the bottom 25 percentile, un-tenure of all staff with tenure.
4.  For teachers with classes that average in the bottom 25 percentile, reduction in salary.
5.  For students that receive F's at the 9th grade or higher level, the real consequence of expulsion for failure to perform adequately.
6.  For teachers that have individual students in the bottom 10 percentile yet issued no F's to those students (i.e. cooking the books), immediate termination from employment.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: They never give up (CRT Division)
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2022, 07:17:51 AM »
From the title I though this was going to be a thread about artis-anal TV production.

Brad

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cordex

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Re: They never give up (CRT Division)
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2022, 08:56:39 AM »
I would go the opposite direction as a lot of you here, I think.  Schools need MORE fine arts and broader curriculum offerings.  More shop class.  More agricultural sciences.  More drama, more band, more chorus.
If schools are doing a poor job at teaching the most critical subjects using the absolutely massive resources they are given, expecting them to competently teach a broad spectrum of additional subjects may be a stretch, or simply too expensive to tolerate.

3.  For districts that score in the bottom 25 percentile, un-tenure of all staff with tenure
4.  For teachers with classes that average in the bottom 25 percentile, reduction in salary.
Are you expecting this kind of policy to cause innovation that would allow teachers to reach students in homes that do not value education?  I tend to believe it would simply result in massive teacher shortages for regions in which education is not culturally valued.  Given those incentives, if you were a teacher would you consider even for a moment going to work for an inner city school in the US?

As far as I can tell, success in education is primarily dependent on having a culture that respects and emphasizes it.  The quality of teachers is secondary - at best.  Any system that punishes teachers for defects in their student's culture is going to have a difficult time recruiting in areas with a culture that devalues education.  Urban schools have - by far - the most per-pupil public funding and almost invariably the lowest performance.  I don't know what the answer is but clearly throwing money at the problem isn't solving the problem, and I'm guessing that yanking job security and salary from teachers in those areas probably wouldn't either.  Regardless, I'd probably suggest using some defined performance cutoffs instead of bottom quartiles.

That said, if you do start expelling kids who don't want to perform then the remaining ones are probably culturally more focused on education.  What that does to urban crime rates and so forth would be interesting to see.  From a distance.

sumpnz

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Re: They never give up (CRT Division)
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2022, 09:54:27 AM »
Along the lines of cordex I also would point out that if a school was say in bottom 5th percentile and is now in the bottom 15th percentile do you really want to punish those teachers with a pay cut?

While unlikely in our lifetime, if percentile is the criteria it’s possible that a bottom 25th school, eventually might be performing at the same level as one that today is a top 1st percentile.  Do you want to punish that kind of improvement?

MechAg94

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Re: They never give up (CRT Division)
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2022, 10:34:33 AM »
I have heard of a lot of different things from the state and federal laws that tie the hands and local schools.  Not sure how much is that versus bad local management.  I am all more getting rid of all federal control/funding and leaving it to the states and local control.  At some point, some of the worst schools need decent local people to take over school boards and make sure the local school leadership has education as their primary goal.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: They never give up (CRT Division)
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2022, 10:59:58 AM »
If schools are doing a poor job at teaching the most critical subjects using the absolutely massive resources they are given, expecting them to competently teach a broad spectrum of additional subjects may be a stretch, or simply too expensive to tolerate.

Are you expecting this kind of policy to cause innovation that would allow teachers to reach students in homes that do not value education?  I tend to believe it would simply result in massive teacher shortages for regions in which education is not culturally valued.  Given those incentives, if you were a teacher would you consider even for a moment going to work for an inner city school in the US?


I agree that giving them more money is a bad idea.  I argue that the pace of education has slowed considerably due to the compounded effects of Outcome Based Education, No Child Left Behind, and Common Core.  There's too much curriculum redundancy, addressing the same topics repeatedly.  Eliminating curriculum redundancy, and permitting students who earn F's to either drop out or continue earning F's if they don't value an education, is how you provide peak education to high achievers.  It's far past time to get the socialism out of the schools.  Reward kids who invest their efforts and energy into their education, and quit wasting resources on the losers that will be losers the rest of their lives with the attitudes they have.  Teachers who advocate like burned out social workers are not going to fix urban schools. 

Those urban schools WILL turn around if the losers are allowed consequences of losing, and educational resources are invested into the kids that deserve and earn it instead of spread out on all the boat anchors.

Quote

As far as I can tell, success in education is primarily dependent on having a culture that respects and emphasizes it.  The quality of teachers is secondary - at best. 


I fully agree.  Can you imagine how effective a school could be if it also operated under those principles and reciprocated them?  The greatest educational advancements in human history came about between the mid-19th to the mid-20th centuries.  In about 4 generations, humans went from cottage industry metalworking, to jet powered air flight, distributed electrical grids, and the ability to wield nuclear power.  The educational system in place during that era provided a nominally free education, as long as you weren't a nuisance to the other students trying to get as much out of it as possible.  If you reached your maximum aptitude, you dismissed from school to work the family farm or do whatever you could to support yourself and your family.  "Child" labor was awful in that period because of unsafe work conditions, not because it's bad for children to work.  There's nothing inherently wrong with a 14 year old dropout working at a fast food joint or apprenticing with a painter or drywaller instead of being a drag on educational momentum in the schools.

Quote

Any system that punishes teachers for defects in their student's culture is going to have a difficult time recruiting in areas with a culture that devalues education. 


Which is why teachers need to stop trying to appeal to these students by means of cool factor or cultural/tribal parallels, and start wielding the F and pronouncing condemnation on inferior cultural values.  If the boat anchor student isn't in class, he cannot drag down the momentum of students capable of achieving more.

Quote

Urban schools have - by far - the most per-pupil public funding and almost invariably the lowest performance.  I don't know what the answer is but clearly throwing money at the problem isn't solving the problem, and I'm guessing that yanking job security and salary from teachers in those areas probably wouldn't either. 


When you have students at the high school level that are functionally illiterate, yet never received an F from elementary school to middle school, I think it's quite legitimate to say that you have a failed educational agenda, and a failed implementation at the classroom level.  Consequences need to hit the teachers for pardoning, or enabling, such dereliction of opportunity placed before the students.

Quote

Regardless, I'd probably suggest using some defined performance cutoffs instead of bottom quartiles.


Sure.  I'm game for the standardized tests to actually serve some useful function.  Pick a metric, I don't care how it's used.  But the tests are worthless without consequences.  Same with grades.  The tests, in my opinion, need to be a means of standardizing the value of grades since grades can vary in subjective value from teacher to teacher.  Mrs. Pritchett's Algebra 1 in Brooklyn will have different curriculum and pace and ordering of subject material than Mr. Hanson's Algebra 1 in Puyallup.  Maybe an A is harder to get in Mrs. Pritchett's class than Mr. Hanson's.  More homework, slightly longer tests, maybe a 3 minute shorter class period, some variation that makes it a bit more difficult to excel on paper.  The standardized tests should show that Mrs. Pritchett's students and Mr. Hanson's students are (hopefully) absorbing the same material and the teachers are presenting it competently.

If Mr. Hanson has a bunch of students that are incompetent at Algebra 1, it means that the teachers of those students before Mr. Hanson didn't teach those students fundamentals.  If those students don't have F's for the prerequisites for Algebra 1, those earlier teachers are at fault.  But it's up to Mr. Hanson to put a stop to this process by failing an incompetent Algebra 1 student and referring him to remedial mathematics or ejecting him from the school entirely if the student is clearly not interested in education... not advancing the student with the now-customary polite D so he can continue to drag down the class in Geometry next year.

The standardized tests should show that LAST year, when that poor performing student took them in the Algebra prereqs, did not understand the material and the discrepancy between the standardized test and the grade received should be analyzed and reflect poorly on the teacher LAST year.  Not on Mr. Hanson.

Quote

That said, if you do start expelling kids who don't want to perform then the remaining ones are probably culturally more focused on education.  What that does to urban crime rates and so forth would be interesting to see.  From a distance.


https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/03/23/same/

I don't think that compulsory education of problematic students has a meaningful impact on lowering crime statistics, from a career perspective.  It may lower the frequency of certain petty crimes, but it doesn't stop the ultimate trajectory (kids can't graffiti and shoplift from 8AM to 3PM if they are in school, they'll just graffiti and shoplift from 3PM to midnight instead... this does not stop the kid from ultimately progressing his criminal career to something that results in incarceration once, which then becomes repeat offense and incarceration through life).

What is clear though, is the last 60-75 years of public education has been an abject failure.  Continuing down this path will yield more of the same.  It's time for something different.  The patient will not respond to continued altruism.  Perhaps it will respond to peer envy, or competition, or economic stimuli.  Pick one.  But ditch the altruism.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: They never give up (CRT Division)
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2022, 11:03:57 AM »
Along the lines of cordex I also would point out that if a school was say in bottom 5th percentile and is now in the bottom 15th percentile do you really want to punish those teachers with a pay cut?


This is an excellent counterpoint that an educator could make after producing improvements.  It would need to be proven that the school in question did in fact improve, rather than several other schools simply devolved even further and ruined their curriculum and effectiveness to be worse than the school we are looking at here.  This is something that standardized tests should be able to demonstrate if they were actually qualitatively used.

Quote

While unlikely in our lifetime, if percentile is the criteria it’s possible that a bottom 25th school, eventually might be performing at the same level as one that today is a top 1st percentile.  Do you want to punish that kind of improvement?

This is another excellent counterpoint for an educator to use after demonstrating that his kindergartners just can't grasp quantum mechanics or string theory until at least 3rd grade.  I'd be open to hearing it in another century of improvements.  Right now the curriculum continues to slide to the right in its mastery as a function of time.  This is unacceptable and the trend needs to be reversed.  Viciously.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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I reject your authoritah!

MillCreek

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Re: They never give up (CRT Division)
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2022, 12:03:17 PM »

Are you expecting this kind of policy to cause innovation that would allow teachers to reach students in homes that do not value education?  I tend to believe it would simply result in massive teacher shortages for regions in which education is not culturally valued.  Given those incentives, if you were a teacher would you consider even for a moment going to work for an inner city school in the US?

As far as I can tell, success in education is primarily dependent on having a culture that respects and emphasizes it.  The quality of teachers is secondary - at best.  Any system that punishes teachers for defects in their student's culture is going to have a difficult time recruiting in areas with a culture that devalues education.  Urban schools have - by far - the most per-pupil public funding and almost invariably the lowest performance.  I don't know what the answer is but clearly throwing money at the problem isn't solving the problem, and I'm guessing that yanking job security and salary from teachers in those areas probably wouldn't either.  Regardless, I'd probably suggest using some defined performance cutoffs instead of bottom quartiles.

My wife, the elementary school teacher for 30 years, would largely agree with you and she says that the most important factor in student success are the parents.
_____________
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MillCreek
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: They never give up (CRT Division)
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2022, 12:19:26 PM »
The standardized tests should be a Godsend argument for the educational establishment, because it gives the perfect opportunity for objective statistical analysis of teacher effectiveness.

Imagine how a teacher would react if the following were in place?
1. Standardized tests were structured such that top 1 percentile students were unlikely to ace them, but that a median student would receive a median score, around 75%.
2. A median comprehension of material merits a median grade: Commonly a C grade which is a 2.0 on a classic 4.0 GPA scale.
3. Teachers who demonstrate they expose students to curriculum more advanced than median curriculum, and if those students perform well at that curriculum on the standardized tests, receive a pay bonus.
4. Every 10 years, standardized tests are reassessed.  Material mastery as a function of time is NEVER moved right, but is sometimes moved left as more instances of Teacher success and pay bonuses are logged.
5. Evidence of test tampering, teaching to the test, or actual cheating by giving answers to students, is treated as embezzlement and a criminal offense.
6. Schools and educators with higher standardized test scores than correlated GPA's are rewarded with additional funds.  This encourages educators to push additional material beyond the standardized test threshold.
7. Schools and educators with lower standardized test scores than correlated GPA's are subject to loss of tenure and loss of funds.  This compels educators to grade accurately rather than out of false compassion.

If you could get an annual $10k bonus for excelling, wouldn't you strive for it?

Or would you rather coast on NEA leverage for your cost of living increase and not make your peers look bad in comparison?

Yes, this totally screws over all the special education and remedial teachers.  Yes, I'm a heartless bastard that doesn't care.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!