I want five minutes alone with an automotive designer/engineer...

[Bogie]

...in a small room where they won't be able to run away.
 
Peoples: If you're buying a car, and you plan on keeping it for any amount of time, there are a few things to look out for.
 
Can you see the battery? This is a major clue as to how much you will be spending to maintain the vehicle. If you can't see the battery, and that isn't just because of some piece of plastic, you're going to have to pay someone to change it. And it WILL need changing. Now, maybe you're figuring on having the dealer do everything, and hey, it is nice to have money, but if we can't see it at my store, we can't change it. BTW, Dodge was famous for putting them under everything, to the point where one would have to remove a wheel to get at it. If you unhook the battery, do you have to reprogram all the things? Volkswagens seem to be popular for that one... Pull the battery leads, and  you brick the car until someone with a $can tool reprograms things.
 
Can you see all the fluid items? Brake master cylinder cap, transmission dipstick (uh... some Dodges don't have one), the oil dipstick, something to check/fill radiator, washer fluid, etc... Because sooner or later,  you're going to need to keep tabs on that. Maybe the dealer will take care of that, but... maybe not. Yeah, newer cars are great and all, but this week I had a guy in the store with a car, maybe 2017-2018 or so, and he was using synthetic oil, and religiously taking it in for a change every 7,000 miles, and... We added four quarts to get it to the top of the safe area on the dipstick. And he still had about a thousand miles to go before the oil change, but when the <multiple> lights came on, he drive about five miles to the store.
 
Are parts available at a reasonable price? A lot of remanufactured rack and pinion setups are maybe $3-400... The one I sold yesterday was for a car that used electronic steering, and was $1,200. I see $300-400 starters and alternators, but I also see $125 parts...
 
And don't even get me started on HID headlights, or cars where you have to take the whole front end apart to change a turn signal. That, and LED lights are still in their infancy - Telling someone that the turn signal that they have to replace to pass safety for licensing is going to cost $400 causes pain...
 
Heck, had a guy in this week needing windshield wipers. Special windshield wipers, as in ONLY one set was listed as being compatible, and it would take me a week to get them, at $80/pair.
 
And don't buy an Audi.

[WLJ]

I've long said that if designers and engineers, especially German ones, were forced to work on the cars they designed cars would be built a lot different.

[Fly320s]

I've long said that if designers and engineers, especially German ones, were forced to work on the cars they designed cars would be built a lot different.

That is a nice fantasy.

Cars are designed and engineered the way they are today because of government regulations:  CAFE standards, crash test standards, lighting standards, bumper height standards, etc.  Meet all of those rules, then add in all of the convenience items everyone likes and wants and then figure out how to package it all in a car of the size that people want to buy.  You want to fit all of that into a Ford F-150?  No problem; there is a ton of room.  You want to fit all of that into a small hatchback?  Uh... things are going to get weird.

[bedlamite]

It's more than gov regs. I know a few engineers in the industry, and one of their complaints is that management wants it done this way, even when that way would be better, more robust, easier to work on, and cheaper.

[MechAg94]

It's more than gov regs. I know a few engineers in the industry, and one of their complaints is that management wants it done this way, even when that way would be better, more robust, easier to work on, and cheaper.

IMO, that happens in every industry.  That is one reason all the regulations and crap suck, they depress competition.  A new company could build a new car that does all that, but navigating all the rules and regs would be a nightmare.

That said, I have been sticking with trucks for many years.  They have room and they are typically designed for harder use than I put on them. 

[French G.]

I have to pull the headlight assy to replace a bulb on a 2008 Ford Focus. Not just an Audi or Mercedes problem. Lack of owner maintenance access is a feature not a bug. The dealer bills by the hour and has all the special tools. They just didn’t plan on me, I have a cutting wheel and a welder so soon I will have all the special tools too. 

[Tuco]

And don't buy an Audi.

Y'all know that boy's no fool

[230RN]

Audi ?

I had two older models.

Battery.

Hair tearer.

Once you realize it's under the back seat, it's not hard to remove and replace.

And you will marvel at the minus 8 gauge cables going up front to the starter.  That's minus 8 gauge.  Thick as your wrist.  Well, almost.  That's an exaggeration for the sake of illustration. That's a long way to carry 100-200 amps.

I've often said chief engineers should be locked in a big room with two screwdrivers and a crescent wrench and socket set and forced to take the whole car apart and put it back together with only those tools.

And with the shower heads in the ceiling going full blast just like the rain I always get when emergency wrenching on a car.

And with the lights in the room getting dimmer to simulate sunset coming.

Oh, oh, and I almost forgot.  Two Big Slurpies a half hour ago and no bathroom in the aforesaid big room.

Terry. 230RN

[Brad Johnson]

Automotive engineers hate automotive designers for visual elements which screw up mechanicals. Automotive designers hate engineers for mechanical decisions which screw up design elements. They all hate accountants and upper management.

Customers and service techs? Meh, what about em?

Brad

[WLJ]

Customers and service techs? Meh, what about em?

By the time the car reaches them the company has it's money so screw them

[Pb]

Joke:  An engineer will crawl over a pile of virgins to screw a mechanic.

[HankB]

Subject: Toyota Avalon high mounted brake light.

This is a red LED bar mounted on the interior rear deck, below the back window. If you're sitting in the back seat, you can twist around, reach out, and easily touch this light.

But you can't remove it from the top - the fasteners holding it in are underneath. You can't reach them through the trunk, either. You have to remove the back seat for access.

Idiots. 

It's more than gov regs. I know a few engineers in the industry, and one of their complaints is that management wants it done this way, even when that way would be better, more robust, easier to work on, and cheaper.

Amen, brother. Let me assure you, this kind of cr@p is rife in many other industries, not just the auto industry.

[Cliffh]

...in a small room where they won't be able to run away.
 
Peoples: If you're buying a car, and you plan on keeping it for any amount of time, there are a few things to look out for.
 
Can you see the battery? This is a major clue as to how much you will be spending to maintain the vehicle.

[snip]

Pull the battery leads, and  you brick the car until someone with a $can tool reprograms things.
 

That brings up something I've been pondering the last few days.

If one were to take a small battery, such as a riding mower battery, and attach it to the vehicles' battery cables via small jumper cables, would that keep enough juice flowing to eliminate having to reprogram everything?  Or might it cause some other problem?

[dogmush]

Works fine.  if you still have any old cordless drill batteries that are 12V they work too.

[Hawkmoon]

That is a nice fantasy.

Cars are designed and engineered the way they are today because of government regulations:  CAFE standards, crash test standards, lighting standards, bumper height standards, etc.  Meet all of those rules, then add in all of the convenience items everyone likes and wants and then figure out how to package it all in a car of the size that people want to buy.  You want to fit all of that into a Ford F-150?  No problem; there is a ton of room.  You want to fit all of that into a small hatchback?  Uh... things are going to get weird.

That last bit is the problem. That ... coupled with computer-aided design. The designers typically don't work on the cars they design, so they don't care if it's just about physically impossible to replace the gilhooley in the field. The CADD system says it fits in behind the wazzooskiss with .003" to spare, so it's good to go. Never mind that you have to remove the engine before you can even find the wazzooskiss that the gilhooley is hiding behind. The computer says it all fits together, so ...

[Hawkmoon]

That brings up something I've been pondering the last few days.

If one were to take a small battery, such as a riding mower battery, and attach it to the vehicles' battery cables via small jumper cables, would that keep enough juice flowing to eliminate having to reprogram everything?  Or might it cause some other problem?

Used to be you could just plug a 9-volt transistor radio battery into the cigar lighter socket to maintain the system meory while replacing the battery. I don't know if that still works.

[Bogie]

Problem is if you do that with some newer cars, you bork computer stuff. Not sure how that happens, but it is now a major "don't even think about it." Might have something to do with a lot of stuff running on 5 volt, and it not being filtered through stuffs...

[Nick1911]

Five minutes won't be nearly long enough for an automotive designer/engineer to explain to you the myriad of competing factors that influence design and construction of an automobile.  And that's just the technical side - throw in legal and corporate factors and you'll be in for a two week seminar!

[Bogie]

What if I am choking him at the time?
 
Oh, and my favorite...
 
"My dashboard says I still have 25% left on my oil, but why did this other light come on?"
 
(and when you pull the cap, you see smoke...)

[dogmush]

Problem is if you do that with some newer cars, you bork computer stuff. Not sure how that happens, but it is now a major "don't even think about it." Might have something to do with a lot of stuff running on 5 volt, and it not being filtered through stuffs...

You are pretty safe butting 12VDC to the battery leads or jump points in order to perform battery maintenance without going dark.

You do need to be aware that many vehicles track their battery's state of charge and age to better adjust charging curves and make the batt last longer.  If your vehicle does this you will need to find out what the procedure is to tell your car it has a new, fully charged battery.  I know for example, on my 3 series, I needed to do it through the OBDII interface, where as on my F150, you just need to let it sit with no draw for 6 or 7 hours and the computer figures it out.

A good rule of thumb is if there's an inductive pickup on the negative cable of your battery, your vehicle is tracking battery charge and age, and you'll need to reset it.

As I side not, I'm always amused by how many of Bogie's stories the real problem is the owner didn't/couldn't RTFM.  You won't get a lot of sympathy from me with versions of "I didn't read anything or do any research but this 2019 vehicle does not work exactly the same as my '82 Chevette, and it's the manufacturers fault!!"

[Ben]

where as on my F150, you just need to let it sit with no draw for 6 or 7 hours and the computer figures it out.

Do you know for sure if that works? I'm overdue on swapping my F150 battery, and saw that on the interwebz (I think what I read was "at least overnight") but wasn't sure if it valid or came from an internet mechanic. I know that you can reset the battery monitor via the ForScan app.

Edit: On draw, isn't there always draw? Or do they mean above some certain background level, like when you're in accessory mode?

[RocketMan]

Do you know for sure if that works? I'm overdue on swapping my F150 battery, and saw that on the interwebz (I think what I read was "at least overnight") but wasn't sure if it valid or came from an internet mechanic. I know that you can reset the battery monitor via the ForScan app.

Somehow that just sounds, well, wrong.

[Ben]

Somehow that just sounds wrong.

 

I know, right? I wonder if whoever came up with that is still working there. 

[dogmush]

Do you know for sure if that works? I'm overdue on swapping my F150 battery, and saw that on the interwebz (I think what I read was "at least overnight") but wasn't sure if it valid or came from an internet mechanic. I know that you can reset the battery monitor via the ForScan app.

Edit: On draw, isn't there always draw? Or do they mean above some certain background level, like when you're in accessory mode?

I don't know for sure, that's just what the manual says.  I have FORSCAN, so I used that.  I think the manual actually says "sleep mode" which is doors locked, Ignition off for at least 8 hours.

[Ben]

I don't know for sure, that's just what the manual says.  I have FORSCAN, so I used that.  I think the manual actually says "sleep mode" which is doors locked, Ignition off for at least 8 hours.

Oh, so it's RTFM, is it?