Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: K Frame on March 10, 2019, 09:56:33 AM
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A few years ago I bought a used S&W 410 in .40 S&W. Price was right, $300, and it was in really good condition.
So far I've shot mostly 165-gr. practice ammo through it, and it has printed, consistently, about 1.5 to 2 inches low for me... and FAR lower with the first DA shot (but that's a training thing).
Last night Mtnbkr and I went to the range. I took some 165 Speer (I think) HP, some 180 gr. Winchester Ranger, and I bought a box of American Eagle 180 gr. practice ammo.
Every one of them hit 1.5 to 2 inches low.
Mtnbkr tried it with one of his targets, and he punched the center on successive shots.
I tried it with one of his targets (different aiming picture), and all of my shots were 1.5 to 2 inches low.
So, it's me, and it's not the gun.
I like this thing, it fits my hand fairly well, and the trigger, especially single action, is rather nice. I had plans of making it a winter carry gun, and it fed everything I ran though it last night without a bobble.
So...
Do I run it toward trade on something else?
Do I see if I can find a higher rear sight? This was a value line gun and there's not a lot of aftermarket stuff out there for it.
Do I make it my nightstand gun and not worry about the bullet impact because it's only a bit low, at defensive distances it won't really matter, and it functions and groups well...
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Consistently shooting low at the 6 o'clock position is sometimes cause by tightening your grip as you're pulling the trigger.
Do you shoot low with other handguns? If not the shape of the grip could be a factor in this. Everyone's hands are shaped a little different and not all gun grips fit every hand properly.
Edit: auto correct got me again
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Also something I thought of after I typed the above is how are you using the sights? Some sights require you to cover the target with the front sight post while others require the front sight post to be held directly under the target. Maybe he's sighting the former way and you the latter.
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No, this is the first handgun that I've ever had this problem with. I don't have this issue with any of my other fixed sight semis or revolvers.
These are 3-dot sights, standard S&W, and I'm using them the same way that I've used every other S&W sight on every other S&W handgun I've ever shot... Ice Cream Cone sight picture.
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Is the front sight cast with the frame, pinned, or dovetailed? I'm thinking a shorter front sight would be the easiest fix. I bet since it's a budget version of the Gen 3 Smith autos, you can find sights still.
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Sounds like the gun shoots to point of aim, so why do you want to change the sights? There may come a day when you're shooting too high with the new sights.
You can fix your shooting with just a few minutes of work.
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These are 3-dot sights, standard S&W, and I'm using them the same way that I've used every other S&W sight on every other S&W handgun I've ever shot... Ice Cream Cone sight picture.
Granted, I'm only 75 years old and I've only been shooting for a little over 65 years ... I have never encountered the term "Ice Cream Cone" sight picture. What is that?
And what did Mtnbkr use as his sight picture -- center hold, 6:00 o'clock hold, or ???
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Sounds like the gun shoots to point of aim, so why do you want to change the sights? There may come a day when you're shooting too high with the new sights.
You can fix your shooting with just a few minutes of work.
yeah, but if he "corrects" his grip on this, it might throw him on his other guns which he says he doesn't have this issue with.
If it was a range toy, I'd say keep it if you like it and play with it, but if you want it for a working gun and you're doing drills and whatnot...
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And what did Mtnbkr use as his sight picture -- center hold, 6:00 o'clock hold, or ???
Same as 6 o'clock hold. The bullet hole would be "sitting" on top of the front sight the same way ice cream sits on top of the cone.
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yeah, but if he "corrects" his grip on this, it might throw him on his other guns which he says he doesn't have this issue with.
If it was a range toy, I'd say keep it if you like it and play with it, but if you want it for a working gun and you're doing drills and whatnot...
How a person holds the gun has nothing to do with where the bullet goes. As long as the sights are correctly aligned on the target when the bullet leaves the gun, the bullet will hit the target (assuming of course that the sights are regulated correctly). A good hold or grip simply allows the shooter to shoot quicker or with better control of the gun or more comfortably.
I don't think Mike needs to change his grip. I think he needs to work on not moving the gun while pulling the trigger. Again, that assumes the sights are correct and that Mtnbkr was using the same sight picture as Mike.
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How a person holds the gun has nothing to do with where the bullet goes. As long as the sights are correctly aligned on the target when the bullet leaves the gun, the bullet will hit the target (assuming of course that the sights are regulated correctly). A good hold or grip simply allows the shooter to shoot quicker or with better control of the gun or more comfortably.
How a person holds a gun can very well have an effect, an improper grip can cause the gun to shift while the trigger is being pulled. Many people will tighten their grip during the trigger pull which can cause low 6 o'clock impacts. Seen it many times.
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How a person holds the gun has nothing to do with where the bullet goes. As long as the sights are correctly aligned on the target when the bullet leaves the gun, the bullet will hit the target (assuming of course that the sights are regulated correctly). A good hold or grip simply allows the shooter to shoot quicker or with better control of the gun or more comfortably.
I don't think Mike needs to change his grip. I think he needs to work on not moving the gun while pulling the trigger. Again, that assumes the sights are correct and that Mtnbkr was using the same sight picture as Mike.
From the OP, he appears to be precise, just not accurate. I'm wondering if it's not his grip, but THE grips? Just because grips feel ergonomic and comfortable doesn't mean they'll work well for a particular hand shape. I'm wondering if the grip style and his hand shape are causing some slight "slippage" every time Mike puts pressure on the trigger?
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How a person holds the gun has nothing to do with where the bullet goes. As long as the sights are correctly aligned on the target when the bullet leaves the gun, the bullet will hit the target (assuming of course that the sights are regulated correctly). A good hold or grip simply allows the shooter to shoot quicker or with better control of the gun or more comfortably.
I don't think Mike needs to change his grip. I think he needs to work on not moving the gun while pulling the trigger. Again, that assumes the sights are correct and that Mtnbkr was using the same sight picture as Mike.
I'm going to disagree with you here. The shape of the gun always changes a grip. You're hand just does not go around a 1911 the same as it goes around a Glock. While the basics and the physics are the same, it's an adjustment for every gun.
Maybe this is more obvious to me since I have odd hands (and small hands) but I have to fiddle my grip for every new gun I shoot to find what works with that specific grip shape and recoil.
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"How a person holds the gun has nothing to do with where the bullet goes."
I'm not sure why you think that, but it is absolutely 100% wrong.
"Sounds like the gun shoots to point of aim, so why do you want to change the sights? There may come a day when you're shooting too high with the new sights."
Let me guess... you'd NEVER consider touching the adjustments on a scope or adjustable iron sights because "there may come a day when you're [insert X here]."
:facepalm:
I am actually leaning toward it being the grips on this particular gun. They're the straight back strap (which I generally prefer). I'm thinking of trying a Hogue Handall wrap around on it just to see if there's any difference.
Realistically, this is NOT a problem. 2 inches low at defensive ranges is nothing. It just annoys me.
I'm thinking about using it as my nightstand gun. I have a 3" Chief's Special .38 in there right now.
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IF you're getting GOOD groups, adjust the sight, not your grip. Grip problems will cause poor - and inconsistent! - groups.
It's not unusual for good shots to print good groups to different points of impact with the same gun - eyes and hands vary. I remember reading that Jeff Cooper and Ray Chapman shot both hardball and target loads to different points of impact, even though each one grouped well.
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You can lower the target 2 1/2 inches on the target stands. =D
But seriously, in general, at least in revolvers, heavier bullets print higher at close ranges than lighter bullets. You might try the 200 grain bullets in the auto anyhow.
The reason?
Handguns (and indeed all guns) recoil slightly before the bullet leaves the barrel. Since handguns are held in a squishy plastic medium, this is why they are in fact sensitive to how they're held and the mass of the bullet. (They're also sensitive to torque recoil (left versus right-hand rifling) but this is a pretty minor effect.)
I get tired of arguing this point, so in the last fifteen years, I've been just citing the science and letting it go at that:
Hatcher's Notebook "The theory of recoil," Chapter XII, pp 293 ff, esp p295ff.
Terry, 230RN
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Hatcher didn't have high-speed video cameras.
The bullet is gone before the barrel moves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3-khKHALaw
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The sights are fixed.
Can't find 200 gr bullets but not I said that there was no difference between 165s and 180d.
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Hatcher didn't have high-speed video cameras.
The bullet is gone before the barrel moves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3-khKHALaw
Before the barrel unlocks sure. But the gun moves. Otherwise why does a 147 9mm always hit much higher than a 115 at 25 yards? Longer dwell time in the barrel.
This might be a sight picture issue, I think the Glock picture with factory sights has the bullet hit where the front sight dot is. Drives me nuts, I like six o clock hold if I am going to do dumb stuff like look at my sights. I also had a few times in shooting where I would get some sort of pre ignition push. Not really flinching, but tightening the lower fingers a little just as the shot broke. And then there are times I just had a horrible flinch.
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Before the barrel unlocks sure. But the gun moves. Otherwise why does a 147 9mm always hit much higher than a 115 at 25 yards? Longer dwell time in the barrel.
Mike's S&W 410 is a semi-auto, right? The barrel doesn't move up until the bullet is gone. Not even a little bit, according to the videos.
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As to grip affecting bullet impact point, I said:
"How a person holds the gun has nothing to do with where the bullet goes."
Others responded with:
How a person holds a gun can very well have an effect, an improper grip can cause the gun to shift while the trigger is being pulled. Many people will tighten their grip during the trigger pull which can cause low 6 o'clock impacts. Seen it many times.
I'm going to disagree with you here. The shape of the gun always changes a grip.
'm not sure why you think that, but it is absolutely 100% wrong.
Apparently you all stopped reading there. My next sentence was this:
As long as the sights are correctly aligned on the target when the bullet leaves the gun, the bullet will hit the target (assuming of course that the sights are regulated correctly).
The above quote is why trick shooters are successful. Those guys and gals that hold the gun upside down and shoot it with their pinky finger (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIwVK_FxGZk), or hold it over their shoulder and use a mirror (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFG3hWdRmvU) still correctly align the sights on target and keep the sights on target while they pull the trigger. Their grip on the gun is non-standard and certainly not ideal for quick, follow-up shots, or even solid recoil control, but they get the hits. And it is all because of sight alignment and sight picture.
It doesn't matter how hard you slap the trigger or how hard you squeeze the gun or anything else so long as the sights are correctly aligned on the target when the bullet leaves the gun. Everything that happens after that does not affect shot placement. For example, I have personally watched John "Shrek" McPhee use a ratchet to fire a pistol my friend was holding. John smacked the crap out of that ratchet, and the pistol moved way off target, but the bullets were already out of the barrel making a nice group on the paper at POA. Here is his breakdown of what goes wrong most of the time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qyn87AMVXO4
You've all heard it before. Sight alignment. Sight picture. Front sight focus. It isn't rocket science. Align the sights on target and keep them there until the bullet leaves the barrel.
All the proper grip talk and proper trigger squeeze talk and proper stance talk is solely to get ready for the next shot. You can do the upside down pinky shot all day; it will just be slower than the normal way. For those of you who want proof, I have a drill for you. Next time you go to the range, shoot your pistol using only two fingers. The thumb around the backstrap and your index finger on the trigger. Hold the gun loosely, just tight enough so you don't drop it. Give all of your concentration on aligning the sights correctly and keeping them on target while you squeeze the trigger. Front sight focus, sight alignment, surprise break. Do that 5 times. If you give it an honest try, you'll have a nice group at POA.
Have you ever noticed that you sometimes shoot better with weak-hand only? That is because it is uncomfortable for you so you are concentrating harder on the front sight. The same idea applies in this drill.
Mike said that Mtnbkr got the gun to shoot POI to POA. So, either Mike and Mtnbkr are aligning the sights differently or Mike is not as good a shooter as Mtnbkr. In either case, as Mike said: So, it's me, and it's not the gun.
So, Mike, if you think the problem is with your shooting ability, why are you wanting to change the gun? If the gun is capable of shooting POI to POA, then I think you should focus on your abilities first. I think the best idea is for you to do some dry fire practice, some one-hole drills, and maybe get some coaching, to see if you can correct whatever it is you are doing wrong. And if that works on this pistol, it will improve your shooting on all of your guns, whereas changing sights will only work on one gun.
If you get really ambitious, haul yourself up here to NH. I'll take you to the range and spend all day with you until you're convinced that the sights on your 410 are fine as they are.
**Disclaimer: it is possible that the sights on Mike's 410 are not regulated correctly, meaning they don't shoot POA to POI. It is rare in modern pistols, but it does happen.
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A few years ago I bought a used S&W 410 in .40 S&W. Price was right, $300, and it was in really good condition.
Gun shoots fine for other guy. It's you. But you shoot other guns fine.
Live with it, or get it fitted with a front or rear sight that lets you shoot to point of aim. Who does work on these? I'm seeing some sight vendors that have 3rd gen S&W sights (Novak, Trijicon).
Do the latest trendy thing, and mill for a slide mount red dot?
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Slight thread drift, but we are talking about grip, right?
https://www.facebook.com/TheWebmThread/videos/2040689582886541/?t=1 (https://www.facebook.com/TheWebmThread/videos/2040689582886541/?t=1)
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Slight thread drift, but we are talking about grip, right?
https://www.facebook.com/TheWebmThread/videos/2040689582886541/?t=1 (https://www.facebook.com/TheWebmThread/videos/2040689582886541/?t=1)
That's some fabulous shifting
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That's some fabulous shifting
Jealous? :rofl:
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I had a similar issue. I wrapped my little finger of the firing hand on the outside of the support hand and fixed the issue.
I had developed a pulling issue with my little finger. Fired about 200 rounds with the different grip then tried a normal grip.
Issue was fixed. Don’t know why it developed.
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Well, according to Fly, the proper response to that would have been to cut the finger off. Because somehow your abilities aren't abilities. And your gun is perfect. And your finger is alien satan spawn.
;/
Then again, maybe the truly correct interpretation of this is that every other gun that I shoot (literally dozens) I'm actually shooting WRONG, but my 410 is the only one I'm shooting correctly.
That HAS to be it.
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Well, according to Fly, the proper response to that would have been to cut the finger off. Because somehow your abilities aren't abilities. And your gun is perfect. And your finger is alien satan spawn.
;/
Then again, maybe the truly correct interpretation of this is that every other gun that I shoot (literally dozens) I'm actually shooting WRONG, but my 410 is the only one I'm shooting correctly.
That HAS to be it.
You are a complete *expletive deleted*ing idiot.
You said the gun shoots correctly for Mtnbkr and the problem lies with you. I gave you a solution to your problem that is basically free and would improve your shooting across all platforms and all you do is take everything I wrote out of context.
If you don't want to improve, then quit your *expletive deleted*ing whining on here and do your own thing.
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Personal attacks aside, the gun moves. Yes, the bullet hits wherever the sights were when the bullet left the barrel. Which is not always the same as when the trigger broke. My 147 experience is common and simple physics. Newton didn't say equal and opposite once the bullet is gone. Maybe it's not a lot, but it moves. Weirdest, same ammo, went to a titanium striker. POI went three inches up at 25. Less inertia that had been previously driving the gun just slightly downwards.
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Personal attacks aside, the gun moves. Yes, the bullet hits wherever the sights were when the bullet left the barrel. Which is not always the same as when the trigger broke. My 147 experience is common and simple physics. Newton didn't say equal and opposite once the bullet is gone. Maybe it's not a lot, but it moves. Weirdest, same ammo, went to a titanium striker. POI went three inches up at 25. Less inertia that had been previously driving the gun just slightly downwards.
Thank you. I for one cannot understand why people cannot understand that there is a recoil force while the bullet is moving up the barrel. Action, reaction.
Whether this recoil force moves the gun or not or whether it's normally detectable depends mainly on...
Whether the barrel is above, below, or in line with the "pivot point" of the gun in your hand.
Whether the gun is firmly fixed to a massive object or is itself massive.
The meatiness of the hand holding the gun.
Whether the handgun is a revolver, with an external barrel firmly mounted to the frame of the gun, versus a semiauto.
The mass and velocity of the bullet compared to where and how the gun is mounted.
I assert that Mythbusters have neither the expertise nor the equipment compared to the U.S. Army Ordnance Department, or, for that matter, of Major General Hatcher, whose entire military career related to firearms and their physics.
...
Handguns (and indeed all guns) recoil slightly before the bullet leaves the barrel. Since handguns are held in a squishy plastic medium, this is why they are in fact sensitive to how they're held and the mass of the bullet. (They're also sensitive to torque recoil (left versus right-hand rifling) but this is a pretty minor effect.)
I get tired of arguing this point, so in the last fifteen years, I've been just citing the science and letting it go at that:
Hatcher's Notebook "The theory of recoil," Chapter XII, pp 293 ff, esp p295ff.
Take a centerfire revolver, lay a ruler on its sights, and you will usually see that the barrel points downward from the line of sight to compensate for this effect.
Terry, 230RN
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Thank you. I for one cannot understand why people cannot understand that there is a recoil force while the bullet is moving up the barrel. Action, reaction.
Actually the barrel is being dragged forward by the friction of the bullet as it travels down the barrel. Blow forward guns work using that force created by that friction.
Blow forward
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blow_forward
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Yes, another effect, but unless the friction so great that the bullet doesn't move at all, the recoil-while-the-bullet-is-in-the-barrel still exists.
Nobody ever said that interior ballistics was simple. I avoided mentioning that friction effect because it does not enter into the meat of the discussion.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the angular recoil due to the rifling, which I danced around a little bit in an earlier post. It has been said that the left-hand twist of the 1911 caused several complaints that the gun tended to twist out of the doughboys' hands.
"Nobody ever said that interior ballistics was simple."
It's only simple for those who take the blatherings of Drill Instructors, Firearms instructors, internet gurus, and Mythbusters as Gospel.
I'm pretty much done with this, pursuant to the following:
I get tired of arguing this point, so in the last fifteen years, I've been just citing the science and letting it go at that:
Hatcher's Notebook "The theory of recoil," Chapter XII, pp 293 ff, esp p295ff.
Terry, 230RN
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Yes, another effect, but unless the friction so great that the bullet doesn't move at all, the recoil-while-the-bullet-is-in-the-barrel still exists.
Nobody ever said that interior ballistics was simple. I avoided mentioning that friction effect because it does not enter into the meat of the discussion.
The rearward energy is absorbed by the rearward movement of the slide and/or bolt and isn't felt by the shooter until they hit their stops and the energy is transferred to the frame. That's how recoil operation guns work. The bullet is long gone by that time.
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(https://glock.pro/attachments/glock-pistols/4175-accuracy-my-g17-gen4-pistol-shooting-chart.jpg)
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The rearward energy is absorbed by the rearward movement of the slide and/or bolt and isn't felt by the shooter until they hit their stops and the energy is transferred to the frame. That's how recoil operation guns work. The bullet is long gone by that time.
Not quite. Some of the energy is transmitted through the springs and to the frame (and shooter) right away. It's more than a lot of people think too, as evidenced by the fact that some shooters of smaller stature or weaker hands can't even hold a semi and gunlock it.
That amount of energy is small, however, when compared to the rest of the recoil impulse which hits suddenly when the slide (or bolt) bottoms out.
FWIW, excepting a very little push from some expanding low pressure gas, ALL the momentum the slide/barrel is going to get is delivered to it before the bullet leaves the muzzle.
Actually the barrel is being dragged forward by the friction of the bullet as it travels down the barrel. Blow forward guns work using that force created by that friction.
Blow forward
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blow_forward
Remember though, Blow Forward operated firearms are pretty exclusively unlocked breech firearms. The friction of the bullet on the barrel can pull a barrel forward when it's not attached to the breech and subject to the much more significant backward push of the expanding propellant. I suspect you'd find that the relative forces (forward from friction vs. rearward w/ breech) are orders of magnitude different, and since the pressure rearward is greater, the barrel is not pulled forward at all. At most it's simply not accelerated backwards quite as much. (vector sums)
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Did you ever stop to think that the gun might actually be shooting correctly for me but not Mtnbkr? Given the sampling of exactly two, either is possible.
You also ignored the the point that this is the only gun I've had this issue with - with the rest of my 40+ handguns i dont have this issue - yet somehow in your world my skills are bereft across the board. Yeah... no.
I'm not exactly sure what you teach, but I know it likely would be of no use to me.
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I think we'll go ahead and lock this one down. Plenty of informational links for people to follow on their own.