Poll

What is next step

Take to court
17 (94.4%)
just give up
1 (5.6%)

Total Members Voted: 18

Author Topic: Neighbor dammed creek  (Read 8650 times)

G_Stan1234

  • New Member
  • Posts: 1
Neighbor dammed creek
« on: May 17, 2012, 08:04:52 PM »
Ny neighbor dammed up a creek upstream from my property, my issues is we had some wetlands that we enjoyed that are now dry , plus on a heavy rain their pond overflows and all the pond chemicals (Copper Sulfate) is now in my low land. They are unwilling to resolve, went to drainage board but all laws are for upstream properties not down stream. I do not know what to do now. Any Legal suggestions?

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: Neighbor dammed creek
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2012, 08:15:37 PM »
Obviously a situation that calls for detcord.

Seriously, might give your local EPA a call if the neighbors dired up a no kidding wetlands they might be in trouble.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

AJ Dual

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,162
  • Shoe Ballistics Inc.
Re: Neighbor dammed creek
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2012, 08:40:51 PM »
Army corps of engineers may also have something to say about his dam too.
I promise not to duck.

lee n. field

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,599
  • tinpot megalomaniac, Paulbot, hardware goon
Re: Neighbor dammed creek
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2012, 08:49:35 PM »
Obviously a situation that calls for detcord.

Dang, before I could even chime in.

Quote
Seriously, might give your local EPA a call if the neighbors dired up a no kidding wetlands they might be in trouble.
In thy presence is fulness of joy.
At thy right hand pleasures for evermore.

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: Neighbor dammed creek
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2012, 09:12:18 PM »
Dang, before I could even chime in.


There are very few problems in this world that can't be solved with an appropriate application of high explosives
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

freakazoid

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,243
Re: Neighbor dammed creek
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2012, 09:41:37 PM »
Dang, before I could even chime in.


First thing that went to my mind too was his lack of detcord as an option. Dam you RoadKingLarry!  :lol:
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

Jim147

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,597
Re: Neighbor dammed creek
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2012, 10:17:17 PM »
Dammed neighbors, glad none of mine live close by.

jim
Sometimes we carry more weight then we owe.
And sometimes goes on and on and on.

BAH-WEEP-GRAAAGHNAH WHEEP NI-NI BONG

Cliffh

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,264
Re: Neighbor dammed creek
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2012, 11:12:23 PM »
I'm working with a similar problem, except neighbor dammed the creek and it's now flooding my property.

A lot of your options will depend on what your state reg's are.  I should have started by reading the Texas Water Code, would have saved a few phone calls; see if your state has something similar. 

In my case none of the seemingly appropriate State agencies would help, nor would the Federal Soil Conservation folks.  I do have a promise of assistance from the County Commissioner, assuming he wins the election at the end of this month.

Is this a year-round creek or a seasonal creek - one that dries up unless it's raining?  If it's a year-round creek, that means there should be water entering his dam year round, and once the dam is full the overflow should head your way, which would re-create your wetlands. 

Does he have any kind of overflow system on the dam?  Sluice gates, overflow pipes etc?  Does his dam meet all of the requirements of all applicable state rules & regs?

Are permits and/or inspections required and did he pull the permits and/or have the inspections performed?  The Texas Dam folks will come out and inspect any dam for any reason - even a complaint/request from a neighbor.  If the dam isn't constructed properly, and a lot of home-built dams aren't, it could pose a flooding problem if/when something goes wrong with it.  The most common problem with dam construction is that the builder just piles the dam dirt on top of the existing dirt, not mixing the two together by tilling or similar method.  This creates a loose joint between the two, which can cause problems ranging from minor seepage at the base of the dam to the entire dam giving way - with all the water coming towards you at one time.

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,317
Re: Neighbor dammed creek
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2012, 02:06:57 AM »
Google "Riparian Rights" and see if there's anything that applies to your state. There should be.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

vaskidmark

  • National Anthem Snob
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,799
  • WTF?
Re: Neighbor dammed creek
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2012, 06:37:15 AM »
Start with Corps of Engineers - destroying wetlands without paying the permit fees or creating substitute wetlands elsewhere annoys them mightily.  This means finding out if he has a permit in the first place, which is not hard to do since CoE keeps records of that sort of thing.

Check with the county/state to see if he has a permit for constructing/maintaining a dam,

Ge a water sample analysis and contact the state version of EPA about the chemicals escaping the pond.  Bet he does not have a discharge permit for that!

Get your land inspected.  Don't forget to inspect for subsidance and the possibility of things like sinkholes due to the change in water table, as well as flood damage/erosion due to loss of wetlands.  Get an estimate of the value of the land with the now-dried wetlands area.  Compare that with the value of your land with the wetlands.  Sue for the difference and forced mitigation if the value drops.  If it's gone up sell and shut up.

If you made property improvements in order to take advantage of the wetlands, sue to recover those costs plus emotional damages from loss of enjoyment or, alternatively to have your wetlands restored.

If the pond is overflowing only after heavy rains look to see if he has proper erosion controls in place.  One of the ways to do that is to file a complaint that he does not and let the folks in charge of that tell you his controls are appropriate, adequate, and within spec for whatever authorizing action was granted regarding overflow and control thereof.  (Those are 3 separate items regarding his controls - he needs to have all of them.)

Sue for emotional damage.  Not the most elegant solution, but your heartbreak over the loss of homes for all the creatures that used to live there could be more expensive than mitigating the damn dam and restoring your wetlands to their former state (regardless of what CoE/EPA/etc does to him).

Almost missed this one - call your state's fish/game folks about the pond chemical spillage.  He's poisoning the downstream creatures.  I'll bet the only way to stop that is to lose the dam.

That should tide you over until the detcord arrives.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Tuco

  • Fastest non-sequitur in the West.
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,117
  • If you miss you had better miss very well
Re: Neighbor dammed creek
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2012, 07:55:06 AM »
What state are you in?
It makes all the difference.

The USEPA is not necessarily involved. 
It’s an Army Corps of Engineers issue (by Rivers and Harbors act) on Section 10 waters i.e. historically navigable or influenced by tides; or a State (by controlling state legislation, if any) issue.
What State are you in?

Here is a start:

Location of the USACoE district offices
http://www.usace.army.mil/Locations.aspx

Fill out and send Report of Potential Unauthorized Activity - This is for Pittsburgh - Send one to your district.
http://www.lrp.usace.army.mil/or/or-f/ReportWetlandViolationForm_Fillable.pdf 

But call them first. 
Really, call the district office and see that they actually do have jurisdiction over the water in question. 
It'll save a couple of weeks
7-11 was a part time job.

Tuco

  • Fastest non-sequitur in the West.
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,117
  • If you miss you had better miss very well
Re: Neighbor dammed creek
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2012, 08:01:34 AM »
Google "Riparian Rights" and see if there's anything that applies to your state...

Unless he's out west where water law is quite - uh - different than what we're used to
See "water right appropriation" or "appropriative water rights".
7-11 was a part time job.

geronimotwo

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,796
Re: Neighbor dammed creek
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2012, 08:13:27 AM »
what size is the stream?  where is the water going if his damn doesn't let any of it back on your property?
make the world idiot proof.....and you will have a world full of idiots. -g2

Azrael256

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,083
Re: Neighbor dammed creek
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2012, 10:31:03 AM »
What is it with you people whining about your dam problems?

mtnbkr

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,388
Re: Neighbor dammed creek
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2012, 10:33:31 AM »
Why are we proposing use the govt's gun to keep the neighbor from using his property as he wishes?  What's wrong with you people?

Chris

AmbulanceDriver

  • Junior Rocketeer
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,933
Re: Neighbor dammed creek
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2012, 10:48:22 AM »
I'm guessing because in the two cases regarding dams and properties, in both cases the person "using their property as they wish" is having a direct impact on the property of others, in one case causing flooding, and in another case drying out a wetland.
Are you a cook, or a RIFLEMAN?  Find out at Appleseed!

http://www.appleseedinfo.org

"For some many people, attempting to process a logical line of thought brings up the blue screen of death." -Blakenzy

mtnbkr

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,388
Re: Neighbor dammed creek
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2012, 10:54:01 AM »
"Wetlands" are just a govt contrived classification that keeps people from using their property as they see fit.

Sorry, just remaining consistent with APS logic regarding property.

Chris

AJ Dual

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,162
  • Shoe Ballistics Inc.
Re: Neighbor dammed creek
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2012, 11:04:14 AM »
"Wetlands" are just a govt contrived classification that keeps people from using their property as they see fit.

Sorry, just remaining consistent with APS logic regarding property.

Chris

I appreciate your attempt at reductio ad absurdum here, but it's not accurate.

Even the most extreme versions of AnarchCap libertarianism don't take a "whoever's up stream winner-takes-all" approach to water and streams crossing people's property.  By that same reasoning, someone could (in theory) build some sort of giant air-pump and suck all the world's 02 up, killing everyone on the planet, and it's "okay" because they only suck up the O2 when it's "over their land". Or that aircraft could never cross over private property, no matter what the altitude, without negotiating overflight rights with each individual parcel.

There's a demonstrable harm here to the natural state of someone's property. And while we may disagree with how the .gov goes about enforcing these things, or their overreach in situations when there is no demonstrable harm to the next persons property, that's not the case here, and the OP might as well use the enforcement tools available to him.
I promise not to duck.

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Neighbor dammed creek
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2012, 11:04:38 AM »
Why are we proposing use the govt's gun to keep the neighbor from using his property as he wishes?  What's wrong with you people?

Chris
"Wetlands" are just a govt contrived classification that keeps people from using their property as they see fit.

Sorry, just remaining consistent with APS logic regarding property.

Chris

More true than not, sure. But intentionally destroying your neighbor's property isn't kosher either.  If I cut a tree on my property, dropping it on the house next door, I am and should be liable for my damages.

In my opinion, he'd be morally correct to blow the dam up after a polite word of damages and a bit of waiting. Or a proper duel. But, society frowns on that, sadly. So he's going with the only legal avenue available. The form may be imperfect (CoE, et al) but so long as he sticks to proper right and wrong, he'll be fine.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 11:08:21 AM by RevDisk »
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

AmbulanceDriver

  • Junior Rocketeer
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,933
Re: Neighbor dammed creek
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2012, 11:11:23 AM »
As others have pointed out, I don't think anyone at APS has a real problem with how others use their property, so long as it doesn't affect someone else's property. 

Are you a cook, or a RIFLEMAN?  Find out at Appleseed!

http://www.appleseedinfo.org

"For some many people, attempting to process a logical line of thought brings up the blue screen of death." -Blakenzy

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Neighbor dammed creek
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2012, 02:02:34 PM »
I'm guessing because in the two cases regarding dams and properties, in both cases the person "using their property as they wish" is having a direct impact on the property of others, in one case causing flooding, and in another case drying out a wetland.

Just need to even out the two cases  ;)
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,317
Re: Neighbor dammed creek
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2012, 09:07:45 PM »
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Riparian+Rights

Quote
riparian rights n. the right of the owner of the land forming the bank of a river or stream to use water from the waterway for use on the land, such as for drinking water or irrigation. State laws vary as to the extent of the rights, but controversy exists as to the extent of riparian rights for diversion of water to sell to others, for industrial purposes, to mine the land under the water for gravel or minerals, or for docks and marinas. Consistent in these questions is that a riparian owner may not act to deny riparian rights to the owner of downstream properties along the waterway, meaning the water may not be dammed and channelled away from its natural course.

Lawyer up. If you already have a lawyer and he didn't explain this to you -- find a different lawyer.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Antibubba

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,836
Re: Neighbor dammed creek
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2012, 10:59:13 PM »
Why isn't "Long-range Rifle Fire" one of the choices?
If life gives you melons, you may be dyslexic.

vaskidmark

  • National Anthem Snob
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,799
  • WTF?
Re: Neighbor dammed creek
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2012, 05:33:33 AM »
Maybe I missed it before, but I noticed the poll at the top this AM.

Why start out at the place you should end up at only when all else has failed?

If you have the money to throw around I will be happy to be one of your targets.  Because going to court early is just like throwing money away.  Most of the administrative remedies suggested do not cost anything (except perhaps the hiring of someone to search for records).

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

seeker_two

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,922
  • In short, most intelligence is false.
Re: Neighbor dammed creek
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2012, 11:43:02 AM »
Introduce a family or two of beavers upstream from his dam....
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.