Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: MT GUNNY on June 18, 2009, 04:15:26 PM
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I'm looking for a Cheap book written by a True Liberal, To fully understand Why and What they Believe.
How do we know that are Political View are correct? I'm thinking Common Sense is the Key!
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Rules for Radicals by Alynski. After the Ball by... shoot, a couple guys who's names I forget at the moment. One of the Rockefeller kids published a pretty up front book about his vision for a unified world .gov.
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Oil by Upton Sinclair
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Oil by Upton Sinclair
Oh geez, Upton Sinclair. >.<
Oh how I detest his work.
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Oh geez, Upton Sinclair. >.<
Oh how I detest his work.
If you want to understand the modern liberal you have to read the works of the socialists before them.
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I remember having to read Upton Sinclair in high school. I guess they were indoctrinating kids even in the 1960's.
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I remember having to read Upton Sinclair in high school. I guess they were indoctrinating kids even in the 1960's.
Ever since that bastard Dewey, really.
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Ever since that bastard Dewey, really.
Yeah, somewhere thereabouts.
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Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg.
Gives a good intellectual history of the left here in the US & the influences from over the pond.
Alinsky's RfR is a good resource from the lefty perspective that is more interested in action than ideas.
One prolem you will find is that many on the left don't know or care about their intellectual history & underpinnings. So, there are relatively few resources from the left that examine such.
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Easy. I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability.
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Easy. I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability.
Should we assume you're being sarcastic?
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Nope, he's just quoting Jack Nicholson.
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Nope, he's just quoting Jack Nicholson.
Oh? What movie?
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Oh? What movie?
As Good As It Gets. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119822/quotes)
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Oil by Upton Sinclair.
Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg. : Ive had 2 recommendations for this so far, one hear and one from Yahoo Answers
Rules for Radicals by Alynski
conscience of a liberal by Paul Krugman.
Ill give it a Few more days before I Make a decision. I recomend a good book from the other side, "Liberty and Tyranny" by Mark Levin!
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Easy. I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability.
That was a chick movie I actually thought good on the merits.
Of course, as a transformational movie & comedy, it is fit only to buckle the shoes of Groundhog Day.
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That was a chick movie I actually thought good on the merits.
Of course, as a transformational movie & comedy, it is fit only to buckle the shoes of Groundhog Day.
I love that movie. I watch it at least once a year.... can you guess when?
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That was a chick movie I actually thought good on the merits.
A movie so forgettable, I actually forgot all about that great line.
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Easy. I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability.
I was surprised to find that movie on my list of favorites.
If you want to understand modern liberals a good place to strt is Marx and Engle.
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I was extremely disappointed by Marx. For having triggered one of the most evil social constructs mankind has ever known, the Communist Manifesto turned out to be a complete and utter waste. Communism could get along just fine without ol' Karl ever having drawn breath. Class envy and statism need no doctrines or manifestos.
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I was extremely disappointed by Marx. For having triggered one of the most evil social constructs mankind has ever known, the Communist Manifesto turned out to be a complete and utter waste. Communism could get along just fine without ol' Karl ever having drawn breath. Class envy and statism need no doctrines or manifestos.
1. Das Kapital is his real work.
2. It is said he didn't write most of the Manifesto himself.
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If you want to understand liberalism in America, talk to liberals, especially if they're friends of yours. Then you can apply knowledge of them as people to what they profess to believe. It should be illuminating on an existential level. What we see around us has less to do with doctrinaire ideology and more with confused thinking, a worship of feelings, a cultural flight from responsibility, and a desire to be accepted and liked.
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Mark Levin's new book, Liberty and Tyranny may be a good place to start. I just started reading it in the last couple of days. Obviously he has to cover the liberal or statism side of things to present his points on conservativism and it's roots.
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If you want to understand liberalism in America, talk to liberals, especially if they're friends of yours.
I have plenty of liberal friends, and I've done just that. What I've found is a lack of logic, and all to often a very shallow knowledge of the issues. Their news comes from ABC, CBS and NBC, and that's it.
One things that's common to almost every last one is the objection to religion, or at least Christian conservatives. The whole "separation of church and state" issue, which they can't seem to admit does not exist in the Constitution.
Beyond that, their support of liberal policies is often based upon "the other guy." For example, they'll say that they have no problem with me owning all sorts of guns, but what about the other guy who might be a nut? They think it would be good to privatize Social Security, but what about the other guy who blows all of his SS money at a casino? They seem to dwell on a lot of hypotheticals that may not happen or have a remote chance of happening.
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They seem to dwell on a lot of hypotheticals that may not happen or have a remote chance of happening.
They seem to dwell on a lot of hypotheticals that, if they do happen, are none of their damn business.
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If I could offer an opinion a bit counter to previous statements, it's less about understanding a "liberal" mindset than recognizing a combination of the personal differences in experience and trust in different authority figures.
First, an aside about the labels. When we start applying these generalist terms--which we generally need in order to have conversations at a high-level about an issue--we over-simplify the individuals involved to take a gross amalgamation of easily observed or reputed traits. When you look at the individual level, you'll typically find that individuals will be "liberal" on one political topic, "conservative" on another, and "none of the above" on many topics. The stereotypes are, with relatively few exceptions, not descriptive of individuals; rather, the stereotypes are constructs of political opponents who want a staw-man to easily attack and make a common enemy to rally against. I won't argue whether it's ethical or not. We all have witnessed that it is an effective means of communication.
With that said, what I think you're after in understanding the "liberal view" is an understanding of, generally speaking, why an individual would choose a view-point on a topic that favors a governmental authority over an individual privilege. As mentioned above, I think this disposition is primarily affected by two factors: (1) personal experience, and (2) who they look to as trusted authority figures. And the same model applies for the "conservative view."
Regarding (1), if he or she had a significant emotional experience in an area related to the political topic, then it pre-disposes him or her to a reaction one way or the other.
For (2), an authority figure on the topic can come from his or her personal life (i.e. a significant other or pastor), childhood (i.e. parents or neighbors), public life (i.e. employer or politician), etc. Since none of us can research all issues in their entirety, we rely on an accumulation of knowledge presented by others to assist us in our decision making. It is not an issue of one side ("liberal" or "conservative") being more logical than the other, rather it is more often a miss on what the premises of the argument are or the assumed truth value of a common premise.
So to understand the "liberal view," I'd suggest focusing on those two issues of experience and trusted authority figures, whether you research through literature, personal conversation, or other means.
What I really hope a reader takes from this is: do not vilify one stereotyped group or another, but rather recognize similarities from which you may grow in knowledge. Starting with the differences sets you up for a fight--it's the old "me vs. you" or "us vs. them" approach that is well on it's way to disagreement rather than understanding.
Meh /soapbox
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Hey Matt -- welcome back! Haven't seen you posting in a long time and remember always enjoying your well thought out posts.
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Hey Matt -- welcome back! Haven't seen you posting in a long time and remember always enjoying your well thought out posts.
Thanks, Ben. Being home sick the last few days opened up time in my work and social calendar, and I also came back to PM Dick with a question I had.
I love the board still, I just haven't been budgeting time for it. And you keep adding boards, which just means more time reading!
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A) Obtain all 2008 issues of Time Magazine extoling the virtues of The One. (Which is pretty much all of them)
B) Travel with them to somewhere where C & D are lawful.
C) Obtain copious, I mean truly prodigious amounts of weed
D) Smoke it until A) makes perfect, ironclad sense to you.
E) Enter detox, taking Atlas Shrugged with you as your reading material. Stay there until that all makes perfect, ironclad sense to you.
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D) Smoke it until A) makes perfect, ironclad sense to you.
I don't think there's that much weed in the whole wide world.
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I don't think there's that much weed in the whole wide world.
It needs to be supplemented with large amounts of LSD.
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It needs to be supplemented with large amounts of LSD.
Sprinkled with PCP and Miracle Grow.
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Richard Wright's 'I Tried to Be A Communist' helped me understand a few things. Cult dynamics that have become mainstream. Folks of the view actively or sometimes passively refuse to interact with those of an opposing view and reject all facts not supporting ect. And the outright or tacit understanding that to stand against any position of the group will instantly transform you into the vilest of enemies.
http://www.nathanielturner.com/itriedtobeacommunist.htm
In my own quest for understanding I've largely encountered much of the same.
I hosted a party two days ago for a friend who is about to be married and had a few folks ready to leave when they found out the host was a conservative. They were doing some ignorant bashing and I told them its a B party, no time for politics, eat drink and be merry. They then went around to other guests to ask about me.
Just to vent, it was also that little group that threw glass bottles against the stonewall on my driveway, made an absolute mess whereever they went, refused to aknowledge the home owner authority [guy is drinking, and not hydrating, but refuses to get out of the hot tub]. None of the buggers RSVPed either but all came a night early and stayed a day late. Actually wound up kicking them out and they couldn't resist the parting zinger about me 'not doing my duties as a host.'
:rant mode off: