Hugo Awards Kerfluffle

[roo_ster]

... Did you not read Dragonseye? Because Todd wasn't involved in that one, and it has teh gayz!!!

I understand what you are saying, but you picked the wrong example.

Anyhoo, Eric Flint, Mercades Lackey. Two names that have never shown up on the Hugo's. There are dozens of other examples. Writers who have the "correct" politics with the "correct message" that have very high sales and a long history in the genre who haven't gotten any recognition. Why? They don't write Tor or subsidiaries.
The truth is the whole politics angle is total bullshit. Yes, Tor publishes the politically correct authors with the politically correct stories, but the reason they win isn't due to their politics, it's because they write for Tor and Tor has controlled the Hugo's.

I keep hammering on this point, because it's the part that really gets my goat on the whole thing. If it was actually about politics, those authors from other houses would have been winning a lot more Hugo's. As it stands, they have none.

FTR, there are WAY more looney-tune lefty authors than award slots.  Most will never get a Hugo.

[BlueStarLizzard]

FTR, there are WAY more looney-tune lefty authors than award slots.  Most will never get a Hugo.

Mercades Lackey is a female writer with a huge background in Cons (except during the time when she was getting too many death threats from crazy people to go) who wrote mostly female protagonist and one of the first posititive gay protagonists. Her first book has lesbians as major characters.
She is one of the most well known female authors in the genre and more prolific than the rabbits that live under my rosebush.

If ANYONE was tailor made to be an example of politically correct publishing, she's the darn poster child.
She's got one nomination for one book back in the late 90's and that's it.

Eric Flint is a card carrying socilaist. I don't think he's even gotten one nomination. And again, a prolific, well known and best selling author. This guy makes GRRM look like a right winger.

Both write for Baen.

When I became aware of this stuff going on, I went and actually looked through the old lists of nominated books and winners with an eye on publishers. The only times Tor doesn't win is when a book manages to pop up in the nominations from another publisher and can't be ignored, like flipping Harry Potter (which only won in one year)
Del Ray occasional pops up, but Baen maybe gets one thing on the list of nominated a year.

[dogmush]

That's because baen is The Source Of All Evil.

Perhaps they have a few writers of rightthink but you'd have to read the books to know, and that risks exposure to Michael Z. Williamson. Who knows what would happen then.  Better to stay in the soft, safe world of Tor.

 

[BlueStarLizzard]

That's because baen is The Source Of All Evil.

Perhaps they have a few writers of rightthink but you'd have to read the books to know, and that risks exposure to Michael Z. Williamson. Who knows what would happen then.  Better to stay in the soft, safe world of Tor.

 

*snicker* Tor can be soft and safe. Baen already gets most my book money.

But I is wrongfan and I like wrongfun!

[Andiron]

really looking forward to next year.  Up until now,  the "puppies" movement has been limited to nominating.  It gets real next time.

I am also of the wrongfan stripe.  I'm amused no matter how it goes.  Burn that mofo down. 

[dogmush]

Since I went to mostly digital books, and baen offers any format I could want, accessible from anywhere with net, and available for re download, baen.com gets a ton of my money. I don't really worry about author 's politics unless something so bad comes to light I'm forced to. i.e. I read Scalzi  and GRRM, but not MZB. I read for entertainment, not politics.

I'd like to nominate a Richard K. Morgan book and see what the diversity first crowd says.

[BlueStarLizzard]

See, it was funny, because, so far, the only Puppy Kicker I've actually read is GRRM, and I didn't care for him in the first place. Another one of the Hugo poster children, Bradley, I have read, but, again, nothing I've read by her really floated my boat. I mostly just read Mists of Avalon because that's one of those books, and I had more false starts on that than I did with Dune. When I finally got through it, my ultimate overview was that it was alright on some points, but not something that really grabbed my attention.
I had never read any of the Puppies before the whole thing started and, to date, still have only read Corriea (which I had a blast with)

I'll probably get into MZW, but less due to puppy stuff and more because I just found out he'll have a story in an anthology with Mercades Lackey that she organized.

That's why I was so curious about it all in the first place. I wanted to see how the authors I do read lined up. The fact that they had nothing (and most of them have a substantial bibliography with good sales) made me go "WTH?"

[Strings]

I think I've only read 2 pieces by MZB: Mists of Avalon (which regularly got thrown across the room) and House Between the Worlds (at least, I THINK that was one of hers). Both were before her personal history came to light. House was ok, but nothing to write home about

Most of what I read now has been Baen

[BlueStarLizzard]

I think I've only read 2 pieces by MZB: Mists of Avalon (which regularly got thrown across the room) and House Between the Worlds (at least, I THINK that was one of hers). Both were before her personal history came to light. House was ok, but nothing to write home about

Most of what I read now has been Baen

I have a couple of the Ghostlight (?) series. I read some of the first one. It was so boring, I don't even remember what it was about.

I liked the premises of Mysts, but I felt the execution was poor.
Which seems to be the general run of many of the Right Fans style of books. Some of them have at least halfway interesting stuff, but it's just really badly written (or in the case of GRRM, five words when one would do)

I've read other stuff in the same theme of Author's mytho's with non traditional POVs that are ultimately much better than Mists. One of which is actually by Lackey.
http://www.mercedeslackey.com/books/gwenhwyfar.html

[Hawkmoon]

The original Pern books - the four of them - are ones I need to get deadtree copies of. 

Four?

The original Pern series was a trilogy. What do you consider the fourth?

[Hawkmoon]

... Did you not read Dragonseye? Because Todd wasn't involved in that one, and it has teh gayz!!!

Anne wrote it -- of course I read it.

Yes, there was a background of references to homosexuality even in the original trilogy. But Anne didn't push it, and in fact she backed away from it. In whichever book it was that chronicled the birth of Jaxom, Lytol, the former dragon rider who was appointed his guardian was described as being a rider of a blue dragon. Riders of blues and greens were the gays. When she reprised the same characters in The White Dragon, Lytol's beloved, deceased dragon, Larth, was described as having been a brown (a class of dragon higher than the blues or greens, ridden by men who were heterosexual in orientation).

So Anne wasn't ready or willing to have what turned into a major character be a homosexual. Todd, on the other hand, made A BIG DEAL of homosexuality in the first and second of the Pern books he wrote on his own, as well as also delving into the aforementioned menage a trois and menage a quatre in a big way. The sad part is that none of it was necessary for the plot ... which tells me he pushed it because he wanted to push it, not because it did anything to improve the story line.

[BlueStarLizzard]

Four?

The original Pern series was a trilogy. What do you consider the fourth?

I would guess Renegades. That's what follows directly after White Dragon, but if you want to add that set on as "original" than you need to go all the way through to All The Weyrs of Pern.

[BlueStarLizzard]

Anne wrote it -- of course I read it.

Yes, there was a background of references to homosexuality even in the original trilogy. But Anne didn't push it, and in fact she backed away from it. In whichever book it was that chronicled the birth of Jaxom, Lytol, the former dragon rider who was appointed his guardian was described as being a rider of a blue dragon. Riders of blues and greens were the gays. When she reprised the same characters in The White Dragon, Lytol's beloved, deceased dragon, Larth, was described as having been a brown (a class of dragon higher than the blues or greens, ridden by men who were heterosexual in orientation).

So Anne wasn't ready or willing to have what turned into a major character be a homosexual. Todd, on the other hand, made A BIG DEAL of homosexuality in the first and second of the Pern books he wrote on his own, as well as also delving into the aforementioned menage a trois and menage a quatre in a big way. The sad part is that none of it was necessary for the plot ... which tells me he pushed it because he wanted to push it, not because it did anything to improve the story line.

No, it doesn't.

Actually, my perspective is that she would have had more in the earlier books, but it would have caused issues and maybe have not gotten published. Dragonseye came out in '98, when such things were much more accepted.

If anything, she probably felt she had to cut what she really wanted to write for the sake of readership and the time period she was publishing in.

In fact, I would wonder if greens and blies would have played a larger part in the various stories if she had been able to do more than hint. She later gave both colors much more emphasis, but she wasn't able to do that until she could have some gay characters, since the dragons gender and mating flights have so much impact on the riders.

[Hawkmoon]

Four?

The original Pern series was a trilogy. What do you consider the fourth?

I would guess Renegades. That's what follows directly after White Dragon, but if you want to add that set on as "original" than you need to go all the way through to All The Weyrs of Pern.

The first three have been sold as a trilogy, boxed together in a slip case. I have it on my Anne McCaffrey book shelf. I wouldn't have thought of Renegades of Pern as a fourth in that set. If anything, I think my vote for a fourth would be Masterharper of Pern.

In fact, I would wonder if greens and blies would have played a larger part in the various stories if she had been able to do more than hint. She later gave both colors much more emphasis, but she wasn't able to do that until she could have some gay characters, since the dragons gender and mating flights have so much impact on the riders.

You may be right. In fact, the whole homosexual thing didn't have any reason for being in the story line. During the period covered by the first three books (I think it was in The White Dragon) she had a girl -- Mirrim -- become a rider of a green dragon. And in later books we learn that female dragonriders (other than queen riders) were the norm in the early days of the colonization of the planet, centuries (millennia) before the time of the first three books in the series. So there was no need or reason to have ever made that even a side issue in the series.

That said, none of Anne's books were in your face about it. It was just there, in the background. Todd made it a central plot element, even though doing so was totally unnecessary. I guess he's still writing more Pern books and continuing to cash in on his mother's legacy, but I won't buy another of his books. I'm done.

[erictank]

Since I went to mostly digital books, and baen offers any format I could want, accessible from anywhere with net, and available for re download, baen.com gets a ton of my money. I don't really worry about author 's politics unless something so bad comes to light I'm forced to. i.e. I read Scalzi  and GRRM, but not MZB. I read for entertainment, not politics.

I'd like to nominate a Richard K. Morgan book and see what the diversity first crowd says.

I was very disappointed to find out about Bradley and Breen last year; I read all of Mom's MZB 'Darkover' novels growing up, and had fond memories of them.  Yes, I didn't know ANYTHING about their pedophilia and molestations until last year.

Four?

The original Pern series was a trilogy. What do you consider the fourth?

I was misremembering - it'd been a while.  Thought there was a trilogy plus The White Dragon.  Although I may have been thinking of All The Weyrs Of Pern, which is kind of a sequel to The White Dragon.  Came a good bit later though, I think, and was not as good.  I remember Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern being really good, now that I think about it.  Set well before Dragonflight, IIRC.

Sad thing is, I'm starting to pack up the stuff left in the house to move, and found an omnibus copy of The Dragonriders of Pern on the shelf.     So, I guess I've got reading material for next week, once TV phone and internet get transferred to the apartment before my furniture gets moved two days later.  Kindle edition of that omnibus of the trilogy is $9.99, too, which is nice if you like e-books.

Definitely my favorite dragon books - though in a somewhat different vein, there's another book called Dragonworld, by Bryon Preiss and Michael Reaves (http://www.amazon.com/Dragonworld-Byron-Preiss-ebook/dp/B002ZCYQUQ/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=).  BEAUTIFUL illustrations, and it's a really good book to boot.  Worth checking out, if you like dragons.  I have it in the trade-sized paperback edition (first-ed, IIRC); apparently there's a hardcover edition available used, and I just grabbed the Kindle version for easy re-reading.  If you've got a Kindle, it's DEFINITELY worth checking out for $2.99 right now!

I never really appreciated the Masterharper/Dragonsinger series as much as the mainline books.  Don't remember Renegades at all, really, though I've likely read it.

[RoadKingLarry]

Do people really have nothing better to do in life than this kind of crap?
My bet is that RAH is laughing his ass off at those morons.

[BlueStarLizzard]

I would guess Renegades. That's what follows directly after White Dragon, but if you want to add that set on as "original" than you need to go all the way through to All The Weyrs of Pern.


The first three have been sold as a trilogy, boxed together in a slip case. I have it on my Anne McCaffrey book shelf. I wouldn't have thought of Renegades of Pern as a fourth in that set. If anything, I think my vote for a fourth would be Masterharper of Pern.

You may be right. In fact, the whole homosexual thing didn't have any reason for being in the story line. During the period covered by the first three books (I think it was in The White Dragon) she had a girl -- Mirrim -- become a rider of a green dragon. And in later books we learn that female dragonriders (other than queen riders) were the norm in the early days of the colonization of the planet, centuries (millennia) before the time of the first three books in the series. So there was no need or reason to have ever made that even a side issue in the series.

That said, none of Anne's books were in your face about it. It was just there, in the background. Todd made it a central plot element, even though doing so was totally unnecessary. I guess he's still writing more Pern books and continuing to cash in on his mother's legacy, but I won't buy another of his books. I'm done.

I like reading the books in order of how they relate to the timeline of Pern (start with Dragonsdawn and then go up through the history) and some of the books overlap, but from after the first three that were published, it's Renegades, then Dolphins and then All The Weyrs. Masterharper is set before Dragonsflight, and I always see that as a stand alone. Plus, you add in the Dragonsong triology which falls somewhere in the middle of Dragonquest. Those are the set that covers the larger portion of Pernese history and the "modern" Pern.
I actually haven't read the solo stuff by Todd. The only joint book I've read is Dragonkin. I have the second two of his trilogy, but I couldn't find the first and I don't have the sequals to Dragonkin (the perils of shopping at the used bookstore)

I've just reread all the Pern books, except Moreta and Nerilka (in fact, I'm almost done with Dragonkin, which is the end of the road until I can get ahold of the others :( ) and it seems to me that Anne pushed the overall sexual politics of Pern as much as she could, given when the books were being published, and that the Werys were the place that she could explore that theme. I disagree with you. I think she would have had much more involving gay riders and that it could have even been central to other stories and the overall politics of the world. There is a very real progression in the publication order of how she deals with sex in her books. She really glosses over stuff in the first two, gets a little more obvious in White Dragon, and by the late 90's, she's got things right out in the open. I'm not just talking about homosexuality, but also woman's sexuality, with woman in the Werys and some in the crafts being much more sexually free with their favors and woman in the holds being pushed into childbearing.
Sexual politics and population control is a big issue on Pern, especially with all the plagues she writes in (she really has a thing for Plague)
The reason greens stopped having female riders was because of Plague dropping population and holders trying to increase population for land rights. Woman were discouraged from going to the Weyrs (in fact, Dragonseye makes it a central storyline) and overtime it was forgotten that woman had even been riders on the fighting dragons.

I don't know how the Todd books are, in terms of quality, but I'm going to bet that the sexuality he has in them is not anything she would disagree with. Plus, most of those books were written before she died. She may not have written them, but I wouldn't be surprised if she had read them and okayed them.

[MechAg94]

I knew I had seen Lackey's name before.  She has done some books with Dave Freer who I like a lot. 

[MechAg94]

I had to go look.  I have some Tor books by Orson Scot Card and David Drake.  90% of what I have on the shelf are Baen books.  A lot of what I have was from browsing at the book store.  I guess I was gravitating to their authors before I knew who Baen was. 

The first fantasy book I ever read the main character was a woman.  The Hero and the Crown and the Blue Sword.  Wiki says it is Robin McKinley.  It was a good story and in my high school library..  I don't undrstand the concern about not enough alternative characters.  The story is either good or not.  If the intent is to introduce certain themes, it will likely be at the expense of story and character development.  

[BlueStarLizzard]

I knew I had seen Lackey's name before.  She has done some books with Dave Freer who I like a lot. 

The Heirs Of Alexandria series is good. Eric Flint is involved in those as well.

[MechAg94]

The Heirs Of Alexandria series is good. Eric Flint is involved in those as well.

Shadow of the Lion is the first one I saw on my shelf.  I have read a few of that series, but not all.  The Wizard of Karres books are good reads also.

[BlueStarLizzard]

I had to go look.  I have some Tor books by Orson Scot Card and David Drake.  90% of what I have on the shelf are Baen books.  A lot of what I have was from browsing at the book store.  I guess I was gravitating to their authors before I knew who Baen was. 

The first fantasy book I ever read the main character was a woman.  The Hero and the Crown and the Blue Sword.  Wiki says it is Robin McKinley.  It was a good story and in my high school library..  I don't undrstand the concern about not enough alternative characters.  The story is either good or not.  If the intent is to introduce certain themes, it will likely be at the expense of story and character development.  

I love The Blue Sword. She also has some alternative fairy tale type stuff. Deerskin is, IMHO, the best of that lot, very dark but somehow hopeful at the same time. The one book that apparently she got a lot of buzz on, Sunshine, is some stupid vampire thing that blows.
Go figure.

I think one core of fiction and especially ScFi is exploring themes of humanity in settings outside normal. So, if an author is interested in saying "hey, what happens when I put this person (or these people) in this setting and try to go from point A to point B, what will happen?" and they can also write a good yarn, you end up with a great story. The more interesting the character, the more interesting story you get. Add in that characters who are abnormal in some way are often interesting, ending up with minorities as characters isn't a stretch. Or anti hero's or people with tragic life histories, or just some dumb shmoe who ends up smack dab in the middle of an adventure.
Furthermore, the politics of a good author shouldn't matter at all because what they write doesn't necessarily reflect anything about them, other than this was the idea that trickled down onto paper. Any idea or ideal that ends up in the book should be able to stand alone and the opinion of the theme should be in the eye of the beholder. If the story is good, the book is good.
When the emphasis on making a Statement trumps the emphasis on the Story, than it's not fiction anymore, it's some stupid philosophical exercise that probably isn't worth squat as fiction. A great author doesn't tell you what to think, they let you think it out for yourself.

Example: We all love Firefly. Joss Wedon is pretty flipping liberal. Firefly is not a politically driven story, but it ended up with a lot of political themes. The result is a story that people of all political spectrums go bonkers over, even people who disagree with Joss's personal politics. The reason is because he doesn't preach his political ideals, but just has his characters deal with a specific set of themes and let's his audience come to an opinion on those themes.

[BlueStarLizzard]

Shadow of the Lion is the first one I saw on my shelf.  I have read a few of that series, but not all.  The Wizard of Karres books are good reads also.

I think I've gotten up through the third one. I have weird reading habits, and I have to start at the beginning of a series and read it all the way through. Series with really long, complicated books take me awhile to get all the way through, because I get burned out and have to switch gears. If I like them, I generally manage to get through it eventually, but I have several false starts. I've read the first Harry Potter book so many times that, for awhile, I almost had it memorized, because everytime a new one came out, I would start back at the beginning and work up to the new one.
One reason I like ordering books on the internet is because I have some time to reread the previous books before the sequals arrive, but at the same time if the new ones don't get delivered in time to go straight over into the new one, I get all cranky.

[MechAg94]

I have done that lately with Jack Cambell's Lost Fleet series, but differently.  I go to re-read the first one and can't stop from picking up the 2nd and so on. 

If you ever read David Drake's Lt. Leary series, it might get repetitive reading them all in a row.  Great reads, but can be repetitive.

Well said on the other post.  If the politics are more important than the story, it isn't likely to be a good story.  They might as well start writing fables. 

[Mannlicher]

I wonder if anyone really cares about a HUGO award, other than the authors.  I know that designation plays no part in my selecting something to read.