Author Topic: Buying my first car, looking for tips and anecdotes  (Read 7483 times)

Winston Smith

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Buying my first car, looking for tips and anecdotes
« on: February 09, 2006, 07:31:31 PM »
Howdy.

For those of you who don't know, I'm 17, and I'm about to buy my first car, with money I'm earning myself. Thankfully, my parents are taking care of insurance. I'm looking for something cheap, good condition, durable, good amounts of power, and stylish. My preferred style is a sedan, but a coupe will do. Preferably a car but an SUV might be interesting.  Oh, and maybe a good sound system.

I'm not looking to spend more than 3k but am willing to get an OLD car, as long as it can still take a bit of a beating. I'll probably be driving 120 miles weekly in addition to normal city driving, once I go off to college.

So I'm looking for suggestions, ideas, anecdots, etcetera. What should I look for? What should I avoid like the plague? Which auto makers have repuations for cars still good past 10 years and 100k miles?

Oh, and any of you selling?
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Parker Dean

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Buying my first car, looking for tips and anecdotes
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2006, 09:41:53 PM »
Hoo boy! Did you just open the proverbial can 'o worms.

Everyone is going to have differing opinions. For instance I've had very good service out of my Fords, usually getting anything from 200-400K miles out of them before sending them on down the road. Others will swear up and down a Ford will explode the second a key touches the door lock, and that their personal favorite is best.

Anyway, for me a general rule of the cheapest/longest lasting game is that you'll be looking at cars that are NOT popular nor are they in style. This is pretty much going to rule out Hondas, Toyotas and the other cars people want, unless they're really old or in bad shape.

Another rule of thumb for this game is ease of repair. That's because you don't have money to pay a shop so you'll be doing it yourself and if you do have to pay for something done, you want it to be as cheap as possible. IME, rear-drive domestics have been the best in this regard.

You also want replacement parts to be plentiful. This translates to readily available, and more importantly, cheap. This means the car should be related to a popular car, but be somewhat unpopular itself so that it will probably be in good material condition but still not command a high price because people are not actively seeking them.

For me, these criteria are best met by the 84-88 Ford Thunderbirds (and Mercury Cougar), particularly the Turbo versions. The things are rear-drive so repairs are not that difficult, parts are available everywhere and they are sisters to the very popular Mustang, so chassis and drivetrain parts are cheap.

Testimonial: I had an 84 Turbo Cougar (XR7) 5-speed that I purchased with 190K miles. I proceeded to use it for work and put about 250K MORE miles on it. I then sold it to a friend who put a gigantic turbo on it and went and beat up on some local sport-compact types. He then sold it to someone he knew down in McAllen who in turn gave it to his son for college. The son used it in Austin for about four years, made about weekly trips between Austin and McAllen, several trips to Florida, and it's now back in McAllen.  I bought the car for $1800, sold it for $1k I wasn't told what my friend sold it for but I doubt it was much different from what I sold it to him for. I'm given to understand that the son loves the car and will not sell it for anything (at least until the girlfriend becomes a wife LOL!)

Would I buy one again? Hell Yes! Just gotta have some money.

garyk/nm

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Buying my first car, looking for tips and anecdotes
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2006, 09:47:28 PM »
Observations of an old guy who's owned lots of vehicles:
Reliable past 100k pretty much rules out American cars in your price range.
Mazda, Subaru and most Euro cars are expensive to maintain (high parts prices).
Stay far, far away from anything built in Korea.
Doesn't leave much to choose from, does it?
Nissan, Toyota and Honda.

Manual transmissions are less troublesome than automatics in older vehicles.
Learning to do your own maint. work will pay dividends throughout your life.
Don't get sucked in to keeping up with the ricers. It will take up all of your funds and you will always be left wanting more.
Car shop with someone who knows cars. That little noise or vibration might be very telling to someone experienced; you might overlook it in the passion of the moment.

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brimic

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« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2006, 09:59:07 PM »
I would highly reccommend an early to mid  90's Nissan Maxima. You can pick one of these up for a couple of thousand, it will run forever if you keep it maintained and it has plenty of power. A step down in size and power is the Altima, but they are still dead reliable. Between Me, my dad, and my 2 sisters we've had 4 Nissans- 2 trucks, 1 Altima, and 1 Maxima all of them are still running exept for one of the trucks that was crashed and there were easily 800,000 total miles driven on the 4 vehicles.
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Jamisjockey

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« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2006, 04:20:31 AM »
Cars that are known for high mileage and few problems:

Geos (yes, geos. They are also cheap to rebuild when the go south)
Volvos
Subarus
Hondas
Suzukis
Toyota

High on my list for first cars would be the 4cyl pickup.  A base model 4cyl 5pseed foriegn jobber, either 2x or 4x is fine.  Lots of utility, easy to find parts for and fix up.  Another overlooked vehicle is the Suzuki Sidekick (Geo Tracker).  Reliable, easy to fix, and high-mileage.
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TarpleyG

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« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2006, 04:43:22 AM »
Get an early 90's Honda Civic 4-door or a similar vintage Volvo.  Both can be found in that price range here at least...not sure about in CA.  Trust me on this one--I have both and they ARE reliable if nothing else and that is really all it boils down to.

Greg

Parker Dean

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« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2006, 05:15:18 AM »
A couple of points about negotiations.

Try to buy from a private individual. Car lots add to the price.

Try to only look at a car once. Every time you go back you're essentially telling the seller that you're hooked and he'll be less flexible.

Bring cash. This allows you to offer a lower price by saying you'll pay NOW instead of going away and coming back ("I'll give you $$$ for this car, right now.") . Be prepared to leave if he doesn't like your price. Let him make the counter offer, don't raise yourself. The seller knows that if you leave for whatever reason you might never come back, so he'll probably make a counter offer close to your offer before you get to your car.

Also be prepared to take the car right then. Low-balling the seller on the price doesn't make for an easy time asking for favors. Best to get a ride. This also gets you some back-up, which you hopefully won't need.

Get a bill of sale. This improves your legal position should the car prove to have been stolen, used in a crime, etc.

Sindawe

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Buying my first car, looking for tips and anecdotes
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2006, 05:39:42 AM »
If you have them in your area, contract the search out to a professional car finder/inspector.  I used such when I bought my first car since I knew what I wanted, and the ex did same when she bought HER first car.

Some tips:

Listen the engine fire up when its COLD, that will reveal loose pistons and such that quiet up when warm.  Some early 90s Honda engines had an issue accelerated wear on the piston bores.

Inspect the fluids with a critical eye and nose.  Burnt smells mean stay away.

If you pickup an overhead cam engine that is belt driven, either have documented belt replacement, or budget having it done yourself ASAP.  Breaking the belt while running can trash the engine in an instant, and replacement with a rebuild usually exceeds the cost of the vehicle.

Manual transmissions are more fun than autos.
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RadioFreeSeaLab

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Buying my first car, looking for tips and anecdotes
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2006, 05:51:26 AM »
Volvo 240, pretty much any year.  Not fast, but simple, safe, and dead reliable.  My sister just sold her 245 wagon.  The odometer stopped at 468,000 a year ago.  She replaced it with a 740 Wagon, same drive train, nicer interior.

Art Eatman

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« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2006, 06:12:12 AM »
Halway a joke, but not totally:  An American full-size pickup; straight six with "three on the tree".  Probably around $1,500.  Only 16 or 17 miles per gallon, but that leftover $1,500 buys a lot of gas.  Absent a history of abuse, they're nearly bullet proof and they're easy to work on.  If the paint's bad and there is a ding or two in the sheet metal, folks won't lean on you in traffic, and you usually are given the right of way at an intersection. Smiley

Most any Toyota with the 22R 4-cylinder motor is right at bullet proof to over 200,000 miles.  My '85 4WD PU has 288,000 and I'm still using standard bearings; the crankshaft hasn't had to be turned.  (I do all my own rebuilds.)

I've been very much impressed with Hondas, overall.  I've been inside a couple of the motors, and they're built like watches.

Whatever you get, go to a car parts store and buy a shop manual.  Read it.   Read it again. Smiley  Only buy tools as you need them for specific jobs:  Spark plugs, oil and filter changes.  Light bulb replacements...

Art
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mfree

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Buying my first car, looking for tips and anecdotes
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2006, 06:19:18 AM »
Dodges with the 2.2 or 2.5 throttle body injected motor and the 5 speed stick. They are dead simple and built like tractors, and if you do need parts they're universally cheap. And even better, since people don't *expect* american vehicles to be reliable, they're cheap used.

Just don't expect the paint to look good Smiley

---edit to rebut before it arrives:

Yes, it's a belt driven engine, but... it's noninterference. If the timing belt pops, you're stranded, but all you're out is a tow, $25 for a belt, and about an hour to change it, and if you goof the timing up on the first shot, it's no big deal, it just won't start Smiley

Only true weak points are as follows: alternator bushings (you can get a urethane set that will last forever cheaply), clutch cable, shifter bushings (one of mine is a sanded down rubber stopper, the other is a piece of heater hose, it's not rocket science), rear wheel cylinders ($15 and aggravation, and this only shows up if the car has been abused), PCV system ($5 for a new valve), exhaust air valve ($10)... you get the point. Oh, and the distributor optical pickup, which is $20 and changed out with a screwdriver in ~2 minutes, just get one and throw it in the glove box.

These motors are based off the slant-six design, and as many old motorheads will tell you, that motor's unkillable. The block is rock-hard high nickel, even the cast crankshaft is *tough* (good for 300hp), bearings are aluminum shell and hard, they'll probably outlive the rings. You *might* have to have the transmission serviced to replace the shifter fork pads at 250,000 miles or so.

There used to be a head gasket issue, but that was a bad early design and really only affects the turbo engines. Mine failed (abused before I got it) at ~95,000 miles and I ended up driving 70 miles home, stopping every so often to depressurize the cooling system, *without any engine damage*.

They are tough, solid cars with a good reliability record and built so even a backyard yahoo like myself can fix almost anything on it.

roo_ster

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Buying my first car, looking for tips and anecdotes
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2006, 06:24:42 AM »
First thing:

Go to your bookstore and buy Remar Sutton's (?) "Dont Get Taken Every Time"

Read it twice and then do your homework and what models are right for you.
Regards,

roo_ster

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Waitone

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« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2006, 06:59:50 AM »
If you rule out pickup trucks you rule out a vehicle which is overbuilt for commuter transportation.  I recommend a 6 cylinder fuel injection with a hydraulic actuated standard transmission.  There is a reason why there is comparatively few pick up trucks in used car lots.  They last.

My only suggestion is when you find something spend a bucks and take it to a mechanic for a look-see.  You don't want to spend hard earned money on a vehicle then find out the front end needs to be rebuilt or brakes overhauled or cooling system flushed or transmission overhauled.  Not trying to scare you, just giving you the benefit of a few years of buying used cards.  I don't buy new vehicles.
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DJJ

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Buying my first car, looking for tips and anecdotes
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2006, 07:55:16 AM »
Being that you're in California, it's the seller's responsibility by law to have the car smogged for the sale. Make darn sure the seller has this along with the title; this must be absolutely non-negotiable. If you don't have it, you'll be responsible for getting it smogged, and if the seller didn't (or won't) do it, there's probably a reason.

garrettwc

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« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2006, 09:31:01 AM »
Good advice in this thread.

Winston when I was your age I bought a 10 yr old Ford Torino for $1800. I kept it tuned up and the oil changed and never had to spend much $$ on repairs. I just retired a 6 yr old Dodge Stratus[that I paid 7X as much for] because it was going to need it's second engine rebuild.

Guess which one I got the most enjoyment out of?

roo_ster

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« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2006, 10:58:01 AM »
OK, now the cars.  There will be lots of opinions out there.  Here are some of mine.

General Guidelines
* Manual tranny will last longer and be cheaper to fix than an automatic.
* Front wheel drive will break sooner than rear wheel drive, cost more to fix, and be more difficult to fix.
* Deisels will get 30% better milage and last 300% longer than the equivalent gasoline engine.
* Domestics are cheaper to fix than imports.
* American cars withstand poor maintenence over time better than foreign cars.  (1)
* One reason the Japanese autos last so long is that their owners are the 1st (Honda) and 2nd (Toyota) most likely to perform proper maintenence on their vehicles.
* The newer the auto, the less difference there is in build quality between Japanese & domestic autos.
* Present condition and a hard record of proper maintenence are the most important criteria when evealuating a used car.  Make/model reputation is much less important.
* Of the American makes, Chrysler has the poorest longevity.
* In your price range, avoid Korean makes like the plague.

(1) What does this imply?  A high milage rice burner without all maintenence receipts showing proper maintenence is a riskier proposition than a similar domestic auto.  A rice burner with all maint records showing good maint is a better bet than an American auto with the same maint records.

Given the above, there are a few vehicles that make good basic transport for few $$$.

Older American Full Sized Pickup
Generally speaking, the older it is, the easier it is to work on.  For instance, my buddy just sold his 1976 Chevy 1/2 ton (350/3sp auto) for $1000.  He bought it 5 years earlier...for $1000.  He just kept it maintained and fixed things as they broke, as one should.  The paint was shot by the time he bought it and it had power steering & brakes.  No PW, PDL, A/C or anything fancy.  The points in favor of an old pickup are ease of maint/repair, cost of maint/repair, large size in a collision, hold their value as a basic work truck, and usually are (as mentioned above) overbuilt for day to day driving.  Oh, and a guy/gal can drive one and still be kinda cool, depsite its condition or current styling, as it is purposeful and serious, the way a pipsqueak rice burner is not.  The major downside is fuel economy, though a 1/2 ton with a small V8, V6, or I6 will do alright.  The big gasoline V8s will own your wallet to keep its tank filled.  A deisel will likely be out of your price range, as they maintian a lot of their value, but they get really good milage (mid-1980s Chevy 3/4 ton HD deisel could get 24MPG highway)  Last, you'll never need to rent a U-Haul truck to move from apartment to apartment.

Older Compact Pickup
Similar to the full size, but smaller, better fuel economy, and more manufacturers to choose from.  Good value-leaders are Ford Ranger, Mazda, and Nissan with I4 engines.  Foreign models not as cheap, parts-wise as the domestics.  A basic Ford Ranger with no power equipment, manual tranny, and I4 engine will likely be the cheapest option.

Rice Burner Econobox
A good basic transport option, but it must have been maintained & serviced well, as they don't stand up to abuse as well as American autos.  Given proper servicng (which they require more of than their American counterparts), they'll last a good, long while.

American Vanilla Sedan
Think the boringest rental fleet car and you'll get the idea: Ford Taurus, Buick Regal, Chevy Lumina, Pontiac Grand Prix, etc.  Avoid the aforementioned autos with I4 engines.  Thie V6 engines are pretty darned well-built and last a long while, especially the GM 3800 3.8 V6.

Good luck finding your auto.  Don't worry that you can't afford the coolest, newest car on the block.  At least you'll have transport.

garretwc:
What year Torino?  My gramps owned a 71 with a 351 Cleveland V8 and a 73 with a 302 V8.  He loved that 71.
Regards,

roo_ster

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Art Eatman

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« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2006, 11:43:15 AM »
I sure don't argue with jfruser's ideas.

Art
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Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

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« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2006, 12:11:12 PM »
Listen to Art.  And don't buy a Turbo anything, no matter what.

280plus

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« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2006, 12:34:48 PM »
Quote
These motors are based off the slant-six design, and as many old motorheads will tell you, that motor's unkillable.
Nuh -uhh, I killed one. It did go through 2 x wild 16 yo drivers before I did though...

Threw a rod right through the side of the block. It wasn't pretty. shocked

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matis

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« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2006, 01:28:52 PM »
Excellent ideas here, especially jfruser's.


An excellent car, a sleeper really, is a full-size Ford Crown Vic or Mercury Grand Marquis.

After researching, I was looking for a good one for my GF, but came across a screaming bargain in a different car ($3300 for a '96 with 10,330 mi from her elderly aunt -- 15 months and 15K miles later, it's still like new!).


Around $3000 will buy one of these surprisingly young -- close to a 2, if you buy private party (the ONLY way to go).

They're good for over 200K miles if they were decently maintained (maintenance is crucial for any used car), they're large and comfortable and you can get 20-21mpg on the highway.

And since many are owned by older, retired people, you can find them with a true 50-90K miles.  Just barely broken in (grin).

Since they're large and perceived as gas-guzzlers (they're not really), they can be bought cheaper since gas prices went up.

They're MUCH safer in a crash.

And I happen to like the way they look and run.


In my research, I read a post from a college kid who said he loved the car 'cause he could get all his friends inside.



The used pick-up truck suggestions are excellent, as well.  I drive one for the reasons given above.

Good luck in college.


matis
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Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

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« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2006, 01:43:48 PM »
I hadn't planned on buying another car, but I saw a minty Volvo 240 wagon sitting on a lot for about 2 months here in Mayberry.  Since very few folks drive anything other than pickemups, SUV's, or hoopdies here in Mayberry, I suspected (correctly, I found out later) that no one was even giving a second look at this funny looking eurobox.

I went in, looked it over REAL good, and found that it looked as if it had been driven from the showroom to the garage, and left there for 12 years.  No rust.  No grime. No knocks, pings, shimmies, or clunks. Just a touch over a hundred k miles (almost broken in on a Volvo).  Asking $4000.00

I went back, said thanks but no thanks, and left.  
Next day, I called the dealer, threw a lowball offer of $2600 out and said 'call me if you're interested'.
30 minutes later, he called and said "I'll take it."

Still just like a showroom model.  Amazing what cash money, in conjunction with being willing to walk away from the deal, will do.

ALWAYS be willing to walk away from the deal, even if you really WANT it.
Decide what it's worth to you, throw it out there and see if it sticks.

Did I mention: be willing to WALK AWAY?

RadioFreeSeaLab

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« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2006, 01:47:01 PM »
Felonious, year? Pictures?  I love those wagons.

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

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« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2006, 02:02:22 PM »
Sorry, don't have pics.  It's a '92, silver, Charcoal-grey cloth interior that looks showroom condition.  
Not my favorite color, but I've pretty much put color out of my mind as a purchase factor on a used car.

The black '91 sedan I bought last year is not in as good shape as this one, but it has cruise, heated seats (what am I going to do with that in ALOBAMMO?), and a few other goodies that the wagon doesn't.  
I may do some MINOR tuning on the sedan (cold air intake, HD struts/shocks, beefed up brake assemblies, larger capacity exhaust system.).  That's of course, AFTER SWMBO's shopping list gets checked off rolleyes

RadioFreeSeaLab

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« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2006, 02:03:05 PM »
Ah, so good to hear another person loves 240s!

brimic

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« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2006, 02:37:49 PM »
Quote
The V6 engines are pretty darned well-built and last a long while, especially the GM 3800 3.8 V6
yes and no.  The series 1 3800s are really good engines and will run forever- probably the best V-6 ever made. The early series II with the plastic intake manifold have an achille's heal- The whizkid engineers put the EGR (a very hot part of the engine) through the manifold with very little heat shielding and used gaskets incompatible with Dexcool coolant. They tend to last 70,000-100,000 miles before a hole gets burned in the manifold or the gasket fails necessitating an expensive repair ($1200+....My wife's cost $800 to fix because our neighbor is a retired mechanic and did the work for a lot less than a garage would)  and that's if you catch it in time and don't don't have your coolant run into your crankcase while driving.
I highly reccomend the 3800 engine above all other GM passenger car engines, so long as you avoid the Series II engine like the plague. Apparantly GM fixed the problems of the Series II and renamed it the Series III, but to this day GM will not acknowledge that there ever was an issue witht he series II engine. Sad

Edit: The problem with GM engines also extends to some of their 4 cyl and 3.1L V-6 engines of the lates 90s as well- they had somewhat similar issues and are even more prone to failure because of the dexcool/gasket compatibility issue.
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