Puppy food recommendations

[cordex]

Seeing as how APS needs to have violent arguments every now and again I thought I'd seek opinions about dog food.

We got a new dog about a week ago (supposedly a 9 week old GSD/lab mix but currently looks pretty lab-like).  We started off with a grain-free Wellness Core puppy food from a local pet store (https://www.wellnesspetfood.com/natural-dog-food/product-catalog/core-puppy-puppy).  She likes the food and I'm happy to keep buying it for her, but before we get settled in and buy a bunch I thought I'd seek opinions here.  Is there something about it that is to be avoided?

Chewy has a shot of the back of the bag to show the ingredients and analysis: https://www.chewy.com/wellness-core-grain-free-puppy/dp/37164
A summary:
Crude Protein: 36%
Crude Fat: 17.5%
Crude fiber: 5%

First three ingredients:
Deboned Chicken
Chicken Meal
Turkey Meal

[castle key]

I might think about something with a lower protein than 36% That level, for what will likely be a large dog, can lead to rapid growth with pano, growing pains. Baring malnutrition, the dog will grow to its genetically intended size, so maybe back down on the protein "fertilizer."

Also, the grain free has been linked to an increased risk of heart problems. Initially I didn't really believe that too much, but my friend who is a veterinarian and has pretty good sense without too much bullheaded opinion, leans towards this link.... that pushes me to that consideration.

[cordex]

Good info, thanks.

I was thinking she should be a pretty big dog, but we recently ran into a younger (by a week or two) lab recently and ours was about half his size.  Part of that may be the male/female size disparity, but I think she may also be a runt.

[charby]

My lab made it to 15 being on Purina puppy chow for the first 18 months of her life (wasn't many dog food choices in the 90s) . Then she went on Purina Pro Plan. My current dog, 11 year old weimaraner has been on Purina Pro Plan his whole life. I tried incorporating "better" dog foods but either he doesn't like them or has gastric issues. I also like to be able buy my dog food locally at a farm and home store. Just easier to return if there is an issue and don't have to worry about a bag getting broke open in shipping. I actually find it cheaper at the store vs online. No sales tax savings anymore either.

[brimic]

My breeder highly recommended Eukanuba or Hill's Large Breed Puppy food for my golden, its what I've used so far.

[Kingcreek]

We had 14.5 very healthy years with our lab on holistic select feeds before switching to Costco Kirkland natural select or whatever it’s called. He was always supplemented with raw bones and vegetables like carrot and beet and he stole and ate zucchini and cucumber and tomato. Also stole apples in season.

[zxcvbob]

I think we used Kirkland's puppy chow.  (and my Aussie got really fat from stealing puppy food)  

You might want to stay away from anything "grain free" unless it comes from a big pet food company like Purina or Iam's, and even then be skeptical.  My vet gave me a warning pamphlet published by the FDA (?) last time about fancy grain-free dogfoods being linked to cardiomyopathy in dogs.

[Boomhauer]

Wife says grain free is actually harmful

We’ve always fed our dogs normal dog foods and they’ve always lived long healthy lives. In fact my wife tried feeding ours “better” foods (not crazy expensive like that blue buffalo crap though) and they had lots of stomach trouble so we dropped back down to Purina

I’ve heard the Kirklands is good stuff and is what I’d go with if I wanted a step up from what we give them now

[K Frame]

Agreed, too high on protein.

IIRC, when Seren was a puppy, I started her with Nutro Adult Large Breed recipe with a protein content of, IIRC, around 20-25%.

Even that didn't keep her from developing a nasty, nasty case of pano.

Castle Key and I both were feeding our Leos a raw diet for quite awhile. Then Seren started rejecting the raw diet. I got so frustrated that I started looking at moving her back to kibble because she was wasting so much money.

I spoke with the same vet he mentioned (she also has Leos) and that's when I learned about the possible connection between grain free diets and dialated cardiomyoapathy. She recommended going with any one of the major food brands that Seren would eat. I ended up going with Iams.

For awhile I was using the standard Iams chicken base (green bag), but her digestive output was pretty sloppy. So, on the theory that she was having digestive issues with the chicken, I switched her to Iams Lamb and Rice. Good move. She likes it, and her poop is a LOT better.

[zxcvbob]

For awhile I was using the standard Iams chicken base (green bag), but her digestive output was pretty sloppy. So, on the theory that she was having digestive issues with the chicken, I switched her to Iams Lamb and Rice. Good move. She likes it, and her poop is a LOT better.

I might need to try that with Shadow.  Her poop is way too loose; hard to clean up when we go on walks.  She eats either Sam's Club or Kirkland (they look and smell the same) chicken-based kibble.

[Calumus]

You should take a look at Annamaet. Family owned company who actually produces their own food instead of contracting it out. No recalls ever, and they have a decent range of formulas. Chewy carries them.

As far as grain free diets goes (and I don't want to start a cornbread situation here) the question still remains. While some of the most common foods showing up on the list of potentially bad foods are grain free, not all of them are. Nor are they all "boutique" foods. Nutro is on the list, and it's what I would consider pretty run of the mill.

There's also a reporting issue. Not all vets report when they diagnose DCM, and not all dogs that actually have it may be diagnosed as such. It could be that there's a concrete link; but it could also be unrelated and it's more likely that people who but expensive foods are more likely to pay for additional testing to get a specific diagnoses.

https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/nutrition/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-fdas-grain-free-diet-alert/

[K Frame]

Yep, the question still remains as to whether there's a true causal link or not.

But, I'm not taking that chance given that Seren is a giant breed with a genetic heritage that means she has a predisposition toward DCM.

Note this in the article:

"In the Dec. 1 version of the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, Lisa M. Freeman, DVM, Ph.D., DACVN, provided an update to the research on DCM and emphasized the issue is not just grain-free diets. She calls the suspected diets “BEG” diets (boutique companies, exotic ingredients, or grain-free diets). Freeman emphasizes that although there appears to be an association between DCM and BEG diets, the relationship has not yet been proven, and other factors may be equally or more important."

So, it may not be just a grain-free diet (which was implicated in connection with the canine's body to process taurine, IIRC). It may be a combination of a lot of things. Or just one thing.

To be honest, thinking about this makes me somewhat frantic. That's just the way I am.

[castle key]

I guess one could feed a pup cornbread, but there is too much controversy on a proper recipe.

Purina Pro Plan is a pretty good food that is readily available and reasonably priced.

Sticking to a number limited protein source can be a good plan if you find some reaction or allergy, such as hot spots. Often these are the result of a food allergy, usually a protein, and if the proteins are limited in number, it can be easier to figure out the offending item so as to make finding a novel or new protein change.

[BlueStarLizzard]

Grain free was proven to be a factor for cardiomyopathy in Goldens earlier this year.

Katie generally uses Pro Plan for pups and special needs dogs.

The whole grain free thing was always BS. The Blue Buffalo commercial irks me to no end. "Feed them like wolves" *snort* The dog was domesticated thousands and thousands of years ago and developed guts to eat our trash (which includes a lot of grain) Not only does the average dog not need the "grain free" diet of their ancestors, they can't HANDLE the diet of their ancestors.

[zxcvbob]

Grain free was proven to be a factor for cardiomyopathy in Goldens earlier this year.

Katie generally uses Pro Plan for pups and special needs dogs.

The whole grain free thing was always BS. The Blue Buffalo commercial irks me to no end. "Feed them like wolves" *snort* The dog was domesticated thousands and thousands of years ago and developed guts to eat our trash (which includes a lot of grain) Not only does the average dog not need the "grain free" diet of their ancestors, they can't HANDLE the diet of their ancestors.

Don't wolves eat the whole prey animal, including its stomach and gut contents?  They get their grain that way.   

[charby]

I guess one could feed a pup cornbread, but there is too much controversy on a proper recipe.

Need to add a little meat for some of the protein amino acids, or have a variety of veggie protein to get all necessary amino acids from no meat. Yes it's possible to feed a domesticated dog a vegetarian diet and be quite healthy. 

[zxcvbob]

Need to add a little meat for some of the protein amino acids, or have a variety of veggie protein to get all necessary amino acids from no meat. Yes it's possible to feed a domesticated dog a vegetarian diet and be quite healthy. 

But please don't try that with a cat.  It might be possible with some vitamins and supplements, but I don't think so. 

Dogs are a different animal. 

[charby]

But please don't try that with a cat.  It might be possible with some vitamins and supplements, but I don't think so. 

Dogs are a different animal. 

Cats are a different animal. 

[dogmush]

I've been following the DCM/ Boutique food issue pretty closely because we still feed Ruger Taste of the Wild.  While it's not a concrete link, it seems like more evidence is mounting.  I'm not sure I would start a new dog on one of those food right now, even if I haven't switched him from food he eats.* He's getting up there in age enough now, that I've been thinking about putting him on a senior diet to help with both weight (he was recently diagnosed with thyroid issues) and joint health.  It might also be too late for that for him.

On the next dog, I think I'm just going to go back to Eukanuba.  It's what I used to feed the sled dogs back in the day, and it was always a good kibble.  You can always supplement with meat if they need more protein.


*realistically I don't know how much kibble he's getting anymore.  I'm not at home, and the wife has taken to giving him some wet food every night for his pills, plus he gets some human food, plus we make him homemade chicken jerky for treats, which he gets every night before bed.  The kibble is there, but he was never a big eater and I think he just nibbles it.  He's almost 16.  At this point he can just do whatever he wants.

[K Frame]

"we still feed Ruger "

You have a dog named Ruger?

Aw...

Now I have the sads, missing my beautiful girl...

[cordex]

Thank you all for your input.  I'm a little bit disappointed that this thread devolved into violent agreement, but the advice helps.

Ixnay on the meaty goodness, thumbs up on the all grain all the time.  I'll hold off on buying any more dog food until she sees the vet on Thursday to see if there are any specific needs we might need to address.  If not, we'll shop around for some alternate food options.

Possible or not, we won't be trying to raise a vegan dog.

[zxcvbob]

Thank you all for your input.  I'm a little bit disappointed that this thread devolved into violent agreement, but the advice helps.

I would be disappoint if it *didnt* devolve into an argument

[K Frame]

I would be disappoint if it *didnt* devolve into an argument

What a completely *expletive deleted*bag thing to say, you pillock! I should kick your ass for that! 

[dogmush]

"we still feed Ruger "

You have a dog named Ruger?

Aw...

Now I have the sads, missing my beautiful girl...

He's our good boy, we rescued him like 15 years ago.  Mrs. Mush said we should name him after a German gun, what with the GSD and all.  I suggested "Luger".  She said no, to close to "Loogie".  She suggested "Ruger"  I said they were from Arizona.  She didn't care, and the dog has been Ruger since.

[K Frame]

My Ruger named herself.

The first time I met her her people were being arrested and she lying on top of a Ruger Blackhawk revolver.

I made Castle Key (I was doing a ride along with him) take me to animal control at 4 in the morning so that I could put in adoption papers on her.

That was late December 1996. Early January 1997 I was finally cleared to pick her up. She was with me for a little over 10 years until cancer took her in late January 2007.

Funny to think about, but Castle Key has been directly responsible for 3 of my 4 dogs -- Ruger, Mason, and Seren. My 4th dog, Nikky, I adopted as a companion for Ruger.