Author Topic: How Identity Politics Created Trump  (Read 4048 times)

makattak

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How Identity Politics Created Trump
« on: October 26, 2018, 09:04:01 AM »
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/michael-barone-will-burly-men-stop-the-democrats-blue-wave

Standard article about the split between college-educated white women vs. non-college educated white men.*

However, a point that I've seen before struck me:

Quote
President Barack Obama’s 2009 stimulus package was heavily tilted toward college women. As my American Enterprise Institute colleague Christina Hoff Summers wrote in The Weekly Standard in June 2009, the Obama economic team’s original idea was to finance infrastructure, construction, and manufacturing, sectors which lost 3 million jobs in 2007-09.

But feminist groups objected. Obama economist Christina Romer, Summers wrote, recalled that her first email “was from a women’s group saying, ‘We don’t want this stimulus package to just create jobs for burly men.’” So Obama ditched his “macho” stimulus plan for one stimulating creation of jobs in government and especially in education and healthcare, which had gained 588,000 jobs during the 2007-09 recession. Forget the bridge-building and electric grid modernization; let’s subsidize more administrators, facilitators, liaisons.

The results were disappointing. Sputtering growth nudged up toward 3 percent and down toward zero, which is what it was during the last quarter of the Obama administration. Administrators outnumbered teachers in higher education but added little value; government payrolls were sheltered from cuts, temporarily. There was little recovery in blue-collar jobs, and millions of men lingered on the disability rolls. Life-expectancy fell among downscale groups amid a rise in opioid dependency and deaths.

Barone here is laying out the actual numbers that created the Trump presidency. The Obama administration was poised to (attempt to) help the people who had suffered the most from the economic downturn. I would argue it would not be as effective as spurring the economy, but, taking the Keynesian or NeoKeynsian view, this is what the government ought to do during downturns.

But feminist groups didn't care that men had suffered the most. Men don't deserve help, so women (especially white, college-educated women) who had fared pretty well during the downturn, were the recipients of most of the jobs from the "stimulus."

Obama could have been heralded as the next FDR by creating some TVA or WPA type effect for the "working class." With the "seen vs. unseen" problem, the workers would never know if they would have been better off some other way, but there would be a lot of "downtrodden" families who saw Obama as putting them back on their feet and "fixing" the economy.

But white, college-educated women had to be appeased. So Obama left the downtrodden where they were and told them they needed to learn to code because those jobs were never coming back.

And now we have Trump, who rightly saw this dissatisfaction and spoke to it. Further, he seems to be fighting specifically for these "left-behinds" (you can argue over the effects of his policies, but the target is pretty clear.)

So Democrats have ensured that their coalition will rely more and more on the vote of white, college-educated women and the Republican Party will have a much larger tent.

I'm going to have to re-examine my classification of the two parties as the Stupid Party and the Evil Party. Looks like it's the Stupid Party and the Stupid and Evil Party.


*An aside: it seems the Democrat policy has been to create both more college educated white women and fewer college educated men... which actually fits in with the entirety of my point about Democrats' identity politics killing the Democrats.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

DittoHead

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Re: How Identity Politics Created Trump
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2018, 08:58:59 AM »
First of all, infrastructure would have been the right place to spend some money (if that's your idea of how to help). Bridge-building and electric grid modernization are going to give more bang for the buck regardless of who's doing the work and what "kind of job" it is. So as far as that point - I don't really disagree.

That being said...

they needed to learn to code because those jobs were never coming back.
Yes! It doesn't have to be coding but learn a new skill, do something to make yourself employable in an industry that's growing. A lot of those lost jobs aren't coming back and the sooner people wake up to that the better their lives will go. Those industries that gained jobs (especially healthcare) - it makes a lot of sense to retrain for those because they're growing. I don't give a **** if you think it's a girly job, if you want a paycheck ya might just have to do it! Trump may be able to stop the bleeding in some of those industries but the landscape is changing.

Out-of-work miners cite many reasons beyond faith in Trump policy for their reluctance to train for new industries, according to Reuters interviews with more than a dozen former and prospective coal workers, career counselors and local economic development officials. They say mining pays well; other industries are unfamiliar; and there’s no income during training and no guarantee of a job afterward.
:mad:
Bootstraps buttercup. The world is moving fast, jobs are being automated and you've just gotta stay ahead. That's how it is now. I get that the coal industry would have been doing better without over-regulation but we've all got to deal with larger circumstances out of our control affecting our employment.
I've been laid off plenty times, got new skills and got different jobs. I've moved to cities because that's where the jobs are. I've got no pity for people who stay in economically depressed rural areas and especially those who refuse to retrain. I know many people from where I grew up who have no job and very little hope for one yet they won't leave. It's a beautiful rural area and I would love to still live there but there's just no jobs to support it.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 09:20:05 AM by DittoHead »
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makattak

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Re: How Identity Politics Created Trump
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2018, 03:52:44 PM »
First of all, infrastructure would have been the right place to spend some money (if that's your idea of how to help). Bridge-building and electric grid modernization are going to give more bang for the buck regardless of who's doing the work and what "kind of job" it is. So as far as that point - I don't really disagree.

That being said...
Yes! It doesn't have to be coding but learn a new skill, do something to make yourself employable in an industry that's growing. A lot of those lost jobs aren't coming back and the sooner people wake up to that the better their lives will go. Those industries that gained jobs (especially healthcare) - it makes a lot of sense to retrain for those because they're growing. I don't give a **** if you think it's a girly job, if you want a paycheck ya might just have to do it! Trump may be able to stop the bleeding in some of those industries but the landscape is changing.
 :mad:
Bootstraps buttercup. The world is moving fast, jobs are being automated and you've just gotta stay ahead. That's how it is now. I get that the coal industry would have been doing better without over-regulation but we've all got to deal with larger circumstances out of our control affecting our employment.
I've been laid off plenty times, got new skills and got different jobs. I've moved to cities because that's where the jobs are. I've got no pity for people who stay in economically depressed rural areas and especially those who refuse to retrain. I know many people from where I grew up who have no job and very little hope for one yet they won't leave. It's a beautiful rural area and I would love to still live there but there's just no jobs to support it.

That's good advice for people facing adverse circumstances.

Now do black people.





If you weren't catching my point, the people to whom you are telling to "suck it up, buttercup" aren't going to take kindly to someone telling them that, yes, some other people are working to destroy your way of life, but there's nothing you can do about it, so just accept it and leave everything you've ever known.

Oh, and the move is likely to make you categorically worse off and unlikely to achieve anything ever approaching your previous standard of living, even in the long term.

Additionally, when at least some of the causes of the misery is demonstrably the result of political policies* by individuals who openly state that they hate you, your message of "it sucks, just deal with it, though" is likely to get them looking elsewhere for assistance.

Which is how they got Trump.

*Demonstrated by the fact that at least some of those jobs ARE coming back under a different political regime. That's pretty difficult to claim that it was just technological shifts.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

DittoHead

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Re: How Identity Politics Created Trump
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2018, 04:37:19 PM »
Now do black people.
???
I don't believe my post ever mentioned race so.... should I just quote the whole thing again for you?

the people to whom you are telling to "suck it up, buttercup" aren't going to take kindly to someone telling them that
Clearly many people enjoy being told what they want to hear, that doesn't make it the truth. Should I call them something clever like snowflakes?

Oh, and the move is likely to make you categorically worse off and unlikely to achieve anything ever approaching your previous standard of living, even in the long term.
Then they either moved to the wrong place or neglected that training I mentioned. "Lingering on the disability rolls" is not (or shouldn't be) a viable option. It's one thing to bemoan what over-regulation has done to an industry and vote\argue against that in whatever form you can. It's another to stubbornly refuse the assistance that is provided because you don't want to train for a "woman's job". The reality is that many industries that used to provide good paying jobs are automating and increasing per-worker productivity - even if the industry does really well it doesn't mean everyone is getting hired back to their old jobs. They need to find other jobs, like programming that automation.
In the moral, catatonic stupor America finds itself in today it is only disagreement we seek, and the more virulent that disagreement, the better.

Perd Hapley

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Re: How Identity Politics Created Trump
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2018, 05:24:06 PM »
Were coal-miners refusing to train to do "women's work"? Is that something I missed?

Personally, I'd find it difficult to go into healthcare, as things medical just make my skin crawl.
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Re: How Identity Politics Created Trump
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2018, 05:26:07 PM »
Were coal-miners refusing to train to do "women's work"? Is that something I missed?

Personally, I'd find it difficult to go into healthcare, as things medical just make my skin crawl.

Would you juggle baby geese?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: How Identity Politics Created Trump
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2018, 05:29:32 PM »
Would you juggle baby geese?

Yes. Yes, I would do that. Where can I train to do that job?
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DittoHead

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Re: How Identity Politics Created Trump
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2018, 05:33:50 PM »
Were coal-miners refusing to train to do "women's work"? Is that something I missed?
No, the coal miners in the article I linked were refusing any retraining and instead placing their faith in Trump to bring back their old jobs.
The original topic was about the women's work, apparently Obama managed to "create jobs" that only white women could do! :O

I understand it's a lot to keep track of, especially for those of us who are only smart enough to do grunt work.
In the moral, catatonic stupor America finds itself in today it is only disagreement we seek, and the more virulent that disagreement, the better.

charby

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Re: How Identity Politics Created Trump
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2018, 06:06:55 PM »
Were coal-miners refusing to train to do "women's work"? Is that something I missed?

Personally, I'd find it difficult to go into healthcare, as things medical just make my skin crawl.

Would pick products at a fulfillment center? Learn to fix robotic equipment, learn a trade like electrician or plumbing? If you lost everything would you move 500 or more miles away from your current location because there is a job that will support you and your household?

Those are a lot thing people flat out refuse to do.
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Ron

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Re: How Identity Politics Created Trump
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2018, 08:59:30 PM »
People get peaved when it is government that they perceive as eliminating their job or raising their health care costs.

They bitch instead of adapt.

Or they vote for someone who does what he can to fix the situation.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Scout26

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Re: How Identity Politics Created Trump
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2018, 09:19:55 PM »
^^^^^^^THIS.

Plus there are other reasons why people don't want to pack up and move.  Like having most of your family near you and the support that can provide (like daycare for young kids), and the sense of community.

 
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


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charby

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Re: How Identity Politics Created Trump
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2018, 09:25:44 PM »
^^^^^^^THIS.

Plus there are other reasons why people don't want to pack up and move.  Like having most of your family near you and the support that can provide (like daycare for young kids), and the sense of community.

 

...but if you can't make ends meet, why? Are you going to depend upon family and the government assistance to provide for your basic needs?
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Scout26

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Re: How Identity Politics Created Trump
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2018, 09:58:24 PM »
Not only them, but the local religious and other groups there form a very strong support network.   I know, I see it when I go visit family in Southern Illinois.  The community bands together to weather the various storms, both natural and man-made.

Besides, China wants to buy our coal.  Lots of it.  We're shipping a lot to them these days.  Mines are re=opening.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-coal/u-s-coal-miners-worry-trump-china-trade-dispute-could-hit-exports-idUSKBN1JL281

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/16/us-coal-exports-are-surging-under-trump-but-it-probably-wont-last.html
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

DittoHead

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Re: How Identity Politics Created Trump
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2018, 09:59:53 PM »
Plus there are other reasons why people don't want to pack up and move.  Like having most of your family near you and the support that can provide (like daycare for young kids), and the sense of community.
Certainly there are reasons to stay, the question is whether they outweigh reasons to move. I would like to live closer to my retired parents and have them help provide daycare. However, that wouldn't be enough to make up for two good paying jobs (me full time and the wife part time) that simply aren't available where I grew up and they still live. Not only did we easily find those jobs in a larger city, if something changes we both have a better chance of finding new jobs, and for that matter education/training for new jobs down the line. The calculation might work out differently for some people but if the good jobs aren't there, it's pretty hard to make up for that.
In the moral, catatonic stupor America finds itself in today it is only disagreement we seek, and the more virulent that disagreement, the better.

makattak

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Re: How Identity Politics Created Trump
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2018, 08:44:32 AM »
Then they either moved to the wrong place or neglected that training I mentioned. "Lingering on the disability rolls" is not (or shouldn't be) a viable option. It's one thing to bemoan what over-regulation has done to an industry and vote\argue against that in whatever form you can. It's another to stubbornly refuse the assistance that is provided because you don't want to train for a "woman's job". The reality is that many industries that used to provide good paying jobs are automating and increasing per-worker productivity - even if the industry does really well it doesn't mean everyone is getting hired back to their old jobs. They need to find other jobs, like programming that automation.

Funny, again, how arguments like that only go one way.

When women are under-represented in a job (that is seen as a good job), it's the fault of men.

When men are under-represented in a job (whatever it is seen as), it's the fault of men.

Men and women BOTH have preferences in the type of things they like to do. On average, women prefer dealing with people (as crazy as that is), and men prefer dealing with things. For the same people who make the above arguments to scream to high heaven about the underrepresentation of women at, say, Google, and the also attack men for not wanting to do "women's work" is part of the reason the left got Trump.

Yet again, this is another instance where a specific cohort of people is being singled out for attacks and/or ridicule while others in very similar situations are pandered to and coddled.

My point in this is not that your advice may be helpful (though it clearly missed just how much it costs to follow that advice), but that people who hear that advice given to them while others are getting MUCH different treatment are not going to react well to it.

We have a problem with hypocrisy in this country, and such blatant hypocritical treatment of people based on their identity alone is creating the backlash we've seen.

I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

DittoHead

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Re: How Identity Politics Created Trump
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2018, 09:20:55 AM »
People aren't going to "react well" to a lot of realities that they will eventually need to face: pre-existing conditions, social security, taxes & debt, etc. The answer isn't to tell them it will all be fine, everything will be covered and if they like their doctor they can keep their doctor.
The answer to identity politics isn't to coddle and give preference to your own tribe, it's to reject the premise. Obama tried to create jobs for women, I say a job is a job when you need one.
In the moral, catatonic stupor America finds itself in today it is only disagreement we seek, and the more virulent that disagreement, the better.

charby

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Re: How Identity Politics Created Trump
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2018, 09:34:23 AM »
I say a job is a job when you need one.

X2, a lot of people can't figure that out.
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Ron

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Re: How Identity Politics Created Trump
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2018, 09:40:17 AM »
A global economy of rootless corporations that continually seeks out and exploits the cheapest labor world wide will create a different job market than a nationalist economy that seeks to retain industries that are crucial to the nations security.

Is “the economy” for the people or are the people for “the economy”?
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

makattak

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Re: How Identity Politics Created Trump
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2018, 10:11:40 AM »
People aren't going to "react well" to a lot of realities that they will eventually need to face: pre-existing conditions, social security, taxes & debt, etc. The answer isn't to tell them it will all be fine, everything will be covered and if they like their doctor they can keep their doctor.
The answer to identity politics isn't to coddle and give preference to your own tribe, it's to reject the premise. Obama tried to create jobs for women, I say a job is a job when you need one.

On that you are completely wrong.

"No one wants war! The answer isn't to arm yourself and defend yourself, but to reject the premise of war!"

You aren't going to get less identity politics by allowing your political opponents to practice it to their own benefit and the detriment of your "identity" and completely disarm yourself in the process.

The way to get less identity politics is to make it in the best interest of everyone to stop playing identity politics. Otherwise you get rather foolish statements like the one I italicized.

I'm sure you didn't think it was foolish, so let me translate so that you can hear what you are saying from the ears of its intended audience.

"Yes, you suffered the worst from the event*, and the administration recognized that. Nevertheless, because an identity group that hates you is far more effective at lobbying for their interests to the detriment of your own, you need to just suck it up and accept that you're going to have much worse jobs than what would have actually helped you. Oh, and you're going to have to make significant sacrifices to get training for these much worse jobs that are really designed to appeal to college educated women."

Yes, I know you didn't intend that statement, but that's what will be heard by the audience. And it is NOT a way to get less identity politics. Effectively you've just said that identity politics works for other people, and a clearly identifiable group that was targeted by identity politics needs to just take it.

I've read a large number of people who just don't understand that. (Kevin Williamson being among the worst offenders.)

You can argue all you want that it is good advice, but when people are faced with a reality that identity politics rewards those who play it- you're not going to get less identity politics.



*We'll leave aside who is responsible for the collapse.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

charby

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Re: How Identity Politics Created Trump
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2018, 10:30:32 AM »
A global economy of rootless corporations that continually seeks out and exploits the cheapest labor world wide will create a different job market than a nationalist economy that seeks to retain industries that are crucial to the nations security.

Is “the economy” for the people or are the people for “the economy”?

Makes the mind hurt trying to rationalize and comprehend that. *expletive deleted*ck the party loyalty, we really need to take back the government for the citizens, vote every incumbent out of office.
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Ron

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Re: How Identity Politics Created Trump
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2018, 10:39:42 AM »
Makes the mind hurt trying to rationalize and comprehend that. *expletive deleted*ck the party loyalty, we really need to take back the government for the citizens, vote every incumbent out of office.

Vote for nationalists over globalists.

Vote for proponents of States rights over Federal control.

Vote for proponents of county and city rights over State control.

The right needs to systematically take over or create new institutions and platforms.

I think the Roman Catholic Church has a doctrine or philosophy that is called “subsidiarity” that dovetails nicely with a federalism devolving more authority down to the states.


« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 11:02:14 AM by Ron »
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

DittoHead

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Re: How Identity Politics Created Trump
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2018, 10:41:50 AM »
The way to get less identity politics is to make it in the best interest of everyone to stop playing identity politics.
That's really vague. How is that done?
Rejecting the premise of identity politics isn't pretending it doesn't exist, it's arguing that it shouldn't and demonstrating that it doesn't need to.
In the moral, catatonic stupor America finds itself in today it is only disagreement we seek, and the more virulent that disagreement, the better.

charby

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Re: How Identity Politics Created Trump
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2018, 10:44:59 AM »

The right needs to systematically take over or create new institutions and platforms.



Not all of the Right, most of them can pound sand.
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Re: How Identity Politics Created Trump
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2018, 10:57:49 AM »
Not all of the Right, most of them can pound sand.

The left/progressives are detached from reality.

I’ll take anyone on the right over anyone who identifies as a progressive.

Even mostly worthless Republicans like Flake, Collins and Murkowski have some utility until the Senate has a more favorable rightist majority.

The right has to win elections and Trump has showed how. The alternatives are too terrible to consider.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

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Re: How Identity Politics Created Trump
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2018, 11:12:00 AM »
That's really vague. How is that done?
Rejecting the premise of identity politics isn't pretending it doesn't exist, it's arguing that it shouldn't and demonstrating that it doesn't need to.

Identity politics is reality.

If you fight against identity politics you lose because you always lose fighting against reality.

The right needs to win the identity politics battle.

What is the American identity?

Heritage Americans are mostly white ethnicities but native Americans, Mexicans have been here all along and Africans from very early on also.

The right needs a brand that can peel off the minority conservatives from the minority Heritage Americans.

If only the right had someone that was a master of branding.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.