Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Silver Bullet on July 19, 2009, 10:37:04 PM
-
This is nicely done. Sorry if it's already been posted, I didn't find it with a quick search.
http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/
(http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/)
I particularly like their use of a political spectrum consisting of totalitarianism at one end and anarchy at the other. Much better than the liberalMedia's left-right = communist-fascist.
Not too deep, but informative.
-
I particularly like their use of a political spectrum consisting of totalitarianism at one end and anarchy at the other.
Yep.
I'm not sure dismissing one-man rule was intellectually legitimate, though I'll concede the dictatorships have been replaced with oligarchies in short order.
That aside, I'm afraid Americans would rather have television and beer than freedom.
-
That aside, I'm afraid Americans would rather have television and beer than freedom.
Sadly, to many Americans, television and beer is freedom. They believe that, if they have the goodies, they are free.
-
Yep.
I'm not sure dismissing one-man rule was intellectually legitimate, though I'll concede the dictatorships have been replaced with oligarchies in short order.
That aside, I'm afraid Americans would rather have television and beer than freedom.
Have faith. It's been so long in America since anyone hasn't had something resembling basic freedom that we all take it for granted. We assume that the freedoms we have are automatic and natural, and we have no real conception of what it would be like without them.
Once our freedoms are gone, you may find that those folks who wanted nothing more than beer and tv, suddenly want nothing more than their freedom back. If for no other reason than so they can go back to drinking beer and watching tv.
-
Have faith. It's been so long in America since anyone hasn't had something resembling basic freedom that we all take it for granted. We assume that the freedoms we have are automatic and natural, and we have no real conception of what it would be like without them.
Once our freedoms are gone, you may find that those folks who wanted nothing more than beer and tv, suddenly want nothing more than their freedom back. If for no other reason than so they can go back to drinking beer and watching tv.
You ever tried to take beer away from one of them folks? Or TV for that matter? Them's fightin words.
-
You ever tried to take beer away from one of them folks? Or TV for that matter? Them's fightin words.
My thoughts exactly. Wait and see what happens when the beer-and-tv-crowd can't have their beer and tv because of an overbearing government.
-
Democracy is the form of government that conservatives and liberals demand when they are confident that the majority supports their views.
A republic is the form of government that conservatives and liberals demand when they are confident that the majority does not support their views.
-
A republic is the form of government that conservatives and liberals demand when they are confident that the majority does not support their views.
So you do not actually have an argument except to criticise others' ostensible motives?
-
He's right, though. =)
-
He's right, though. =)
He is. But the fact of the matter is, Republics are a good thing, no matter what motives politicians have about endorsing them.
-
He is. But the fact of the matter is, Republics are a good thing, no matter what motives politicians have about endorsing them.
It's important to be wary of these discussions in a republic, because republics have a mix of institutions. You can have spectacularly bad governance in a republic as a result of special interest driven demands for "constitutional integrity" or "democratic process."
-
What matters is a Constitutional Republic, with an enlightened Constitution. You know, the kind of country we used to have.
-
You can have spectacularly bad governance in a republic as a result of special interest driven demands for "constitutional integrity" or "democratic process."
My turn. "Special interest" is what conservatives and liberals call any interest group they disagree with. =)
-
My turn. "Special interest" is what conservatives and liberals call any interest group they disagree with. =)
Did you have an argument there, or are you just criticizing the ostensible motives of others? :)
-
You can have spectacularly bad governance in a republic as a result of special interest driven demands for "constitutional integrity" or "democratic process."
"Bad governance" is just a word for "me not getting what I want".
-
"Bad governance" is just a word for "me not getting what I want".
Now this I disagree on - bad governance is that which may give in to your desires today, but as a result becomes unpalatable or unpredictable tomorrow. It constitutes favoring discrete results over sound process.
-
Bad governance is different from bad citizenship. Bad governance is tyrannical, unrepresentative governance. That doesn't mean that the populace, untyrannized over, has a clue; quite often they don't. Bad citiizenship is wish fulfillment and magical thinking replacing reason and sober civic virtue. Unfortunately we appear to be witnessing a perfect storm of both bad governance and bad citizenship in America.
-
My thoughts exactly. Wait and see what happens when the beer-and-tv-crowd can't have their beer and tv because of an overbearing government.
Sometimes I wonder if we will ever reach the tipping point of the government reaching the point where people become fed up with how the government is running things that they will take action. It seems like the government will get close to the edge but not go over the line, at least not fast enough to cause people to realize what is going on, frog in a pot.
-
There will be a lot of boiled frogs. But some, trust me, will jump out of the pot.
-
So it's those frogs that will start the Revolution/Civil War/Great Insurrection that I'm trying desperately to mark on my calendar?
-
So it's those frogs that will start the Revolution/Civil War/Great Insurrection that I'm trying desperately to mark on my calendar?
I checked with the frogs- February 21st, 2011. They said noonish. Mark it down.
-
There will be a lot of boiled frogs. But some, trust me, will jump out of the pot.
One can only hope before it is to late.
-
There will be a lot of boiled frogs. But some, trust me, will jump out of the pot.
Then jump, if you're so hellbent on causing the revolution. Just remember, the outcome might not be what you're hoping for. Hop, hop.
-
What are you getting at? That we should continue to kow-tow to the government? Should the founding fathers have done that?
-
What are you getting at? That we should continue to kow-tow to the government? Should the founding fathers have done that?
Dood. Go "Galt." That's always an option for someone truly fed up with the system. You can still even participate on the intarwebz revolución debates while Galting it.
I know a couple folks who have quietly divorced themselves from society with very little external interaction.
Thing is... you have to put down the beer and the TV remote to git 'er dun. Owning land without financing it is a challenge. Building your own infrastructure on that land (home, shop, electricity, well, garden, etc) is expensive too. Paying credit card payments and mortgages requires a job with the outside world, which requires taxes.
And after all that, you still need some "stuff" from outside. Gotta have some sort of low key means to generate enough cash income to meet your property tax obligations and other consumables like clothes, certain foods, medicine and gasoline.
The best war you can wage against the FedGov (if you want to) is legally absolve yourself of any income tax liability while living happily and comfortably in an independently sustainable manner.
Or, you can stroke your AR15 in the soft glow of your computer monitor, waiting for ARFCOM's homepage to say "John has a long moustache."
-
Galt?
Thing is... you have to put down the beer and the TV remote to git 'er dun.
I'm not much of a drinker. Nor do I do much TV watching now that I have joined the Navy.
The best war you can wage against the FedGov (if you want to) is legally absolve yourself of any income tax liability while living happily and comfortably in an independently sustainable manner.
Doing just that wouldn't help change anything.
-
What are you getting at? That we should continue to kow-tow to the government? Should the founding fathers have done that?
What I'm getting at is there is alot of chest-beating and posturing going on. Tell me, what have you done for the revolution lately?
-
What I'm getting at is there is alot of chest-beating and posturing going on.
I haven't seen any.
Tell me, what have you done for the revolution lately?
Depends on what you mean by "revolution". You could say that people petitioning for bills supporting the 2nd Amendment are working towards the revolution. Or you could say that people who have joined the Navy because they wish "to defend the Constitution of the United States of America" are also working towards the revolution. But I am guessing that you are actually asking it in a fallacious way. And you didn't really answer the second part of the question. You seem to propose that we do nothing, that things aren't really bad.
-
Tell me, what have you done for the revolution lately?
No, there's no need to do anything for any revolution and you know that. We all have jobs, you know. Opposing injustice is for smelly hippies and basement-dwellers.
-
Opposing injustice is for smelly hippies and basement-dwellers.
lol
I forgot to add in my last post, that also when push comes to shove on our rights and the government because really oppressive that "from my cold dead hands" will be more than just a motto.
-
I haven't seen any.
Then you haven't been reading the threads on the politics side very closely.
Depends on what you mean by "revolution". You could say that people petitioning for bills supporting the 2nd Amendment are working towards the revolution. Or you could say that people who have joined the Navy because they wish "to defend the Constitution of the United States of America" are also working towards the revolution. But I am guessing that you are actually asking it in a fallacious way. And you didn't really answer the second part of the question. You seem to propose that we do nothing, that things aren't really bad.
Sure, do something. Wailing and gnashing of teeth on an internet forum isn't really doing something, though.
-
Sure, do something. Wailing and gnashing of teeth on an internet forum isn't really doing something, though.
I have seen no implication that "wailing and gnashing of teeth" is the only thing FZ does. Besides, as stated elsewhere on this forum, the mere discussion of political events can in itself be productive.
-
I have seen no implication that "wailing and gnashing of teeth" is the only thing FZ does. Besides, as stated elsewhere on this forum, the mere discussion of political events can in itself be productive.
I never accused him of it, and my posts were targeted to other posters.
-
While I didn't believe you to be accusing me, but there is the assumption that no one, or at least very few, are doing anything.
Then you haven't been reading the threads on the politics side very closely.
While I usually only briefly view the threads on this side. I still doubt that that is all that there is.
And again, what is meant by to go Galt?
-
Go Galt = retire from civilized society, so it doesn't benefit from your talents/input/tax money.
-
You mean, retire from un-civilized society?
-
While I didn't believe you to be accusing me, but there is the assumption that no one, or at least very few, are doing anything.
While I usually only briefly view the threads on this side. I still doubt that that is all that there is.
And again, what is meant by to go Galt?
The posts are there and I've said my piece.
-
And again, what is meant by to go Galt?
"Going Galt" is a reference to Atlas Shrugged.
John Galt builds an engine that runs off of atmospheric electricity. Limitless energy.
He looks at the world around him and decides it doesn't deserve his labor or invention. He leaves it in the lab of the company for whom he worked, complete with documentation and everything, and it lies forgotten for years.
In the meantime, he works with the best and brightest industrialists in the world (while the socialist whiners work in opposite directions) to simply "let go" of their lives in the moocher world. He builds a small retreat hidden from the rest of the world, and as socialism eats all of man's accomplishments he draws all the talent in the world to his valley as the lights of the world go out.
Dramatic... but educational. If you don't like how the country is going and how it is using your contributions, retreat from it. Don't contribute. Or reduce your contribution.
If enough talent simply says "nah, I don't want anything to do with this crap" and looks out only for its own self interest, the system that you despise will run out of fuel and come to a stop.
Once you kick out the driver you can re-prime it with the right kind of people and start it up again.
At least, that's the theory.
-
I see a lot of chest-beating. Unfortunately, it's mostly in Washington, D.C.
-
Not everyone in this country will be served as a French delicacy.
I don't know of anyone on this forum who really salivates over having to lock horns with Authority. We're not really stupid fools, you know. But it's obvious that there are times when you have to push back or get trampled. For a lot of Americans that time is fast approaching. Those in power appear to have no problem with posturing and chest-beating. I can see that display on prime-time tv pretty regularly now. There are plenty of people in government today who have clearly forgotten they work for US and are beholden to US. If you find that a militant statement, so be it; I call it being a responsible citizen.
-
Then jump, if you're so hellbent on causing the revolution. Just remember, the outcome might not be what you're hoping for. Hop, hop.
You're the one jumping--to wrong conclusions. But I'll tell you this: we don't have to guess at what the outcome is going to be if we all just let that water keep boiling. We have plenty of historical evidence to tell us what goes down when ruthless people seize control and bully others.
-
You're the one jumping--to wrong conclusions. But I'll tell you this: we don't have to guess at what the outcome is going to be if we all just let that water keep boiling. We have plenty of historical evidence to tell us what goes down when ruthless people seize control and bully others.
And what is your plan to stop the impending doom?
-
What is yours?
-
What is yours?
For starters, I don't subscribe to the same utter doom and gloom stance that some do. So my big question, for those preaching about "Divorce" and other doom scenarios, is what are they doing about it?
-
For starters, I don't subscribe to the same utter doom and gloom stance that some do. So my big question, for those preaching about "Divorce" and other doom scenarios, is what are they doing about it?
It would seem that "they" (if by "they" you mean longeyes) are spreading awareness of the problem and provoking thought about it and its potential solutions. What more would you have "them" do here in our little corner of the intarwebz?
-
For starters, I don't subscribe to the same utter doom and gloom stance that some do. So my big question, for those preaching about "Divorce" and other doom scenarios, is what are they doing about it?
Unlike longeyes I believe the problem is not uniquely American, but international in scope.
I donate to the appropriate educational charities - CATO has branches operating throughout the world, in Russia, Europe, the Arab world and Iran, and so does Bureaucrash - and write columns for a variety of periodicals. I also volunteer and attend various protests, rallies, and so forth, having to do with a variety of issues like drug legalization and anti-unionism. Of course, Israel has no dedicated libertarian activist network - which is sad - but one does what one can.
-
It would seem that "they" (if by "they" you mean longeyes) are spreading awareness of the problem and provoking thought about it and its potential solutions. What more would you have "them" do here in our little corner of the intarwebz?
I'm seeing plenty of "spreading awareness of the problem and provoking thought about it" and not much "and its potential solutions.", besides some obtuse references. He's not the only one.
My solution? If you've identified a problem, maybe adding a solution besides bleating about the impending "divorce".
Unlike longeyes I believe the problem is not uniquely American, but international in scope.
I donate to the appropriate educational charities - CATO has branches operating throughout the world, in Russia, Europe, the Arab world and Iran, and so does Bureaucrash - and write columns for a variety of periodicals. I also volunteer and attend various protests, rallies, and so forth, having to do with a variety of issues like drug legalization and anti-unionism. Of course, Israel has no dedicated libertarian activist network - which is sad - but one does what one can.
Like that. Good stuff.
-
"Unlike Longeyes...?"
Excuse me, but you really don't know what my state of awareness is regarding the "problem" on an international scale. I read widely and have friends abroad. I do have some inkling of what's going "over there."
***
I don't do any bleating, by the way; I leave that for the sheep. Rather than propose large-scale assaults on our enemies I prefer to suggest that "drawing a moat" around ourselves and our values is quite possibly the most pragmatic, if not the only, course. To many it will not seem that way yet. Yet. But if you look at the way the show's evolving, in terms of demographics, culture, and policies, you may begin to realize that my remarks regarding "divorce" aren't so wild-eyed as they might initially appear. We can begin by making clear to our socialist countrymen that they are perfectly free to create their own paradise somewhere inside these hallowed borders, only not with our help or on our dime.
There's nothing opaque or obtuse about taking a stand on Constitutional liberties, at every turn, in every way, and promoting states' rights or even wider political autonomy. It's happened in other nations; it can happen here.
-
There's nothing opaque or obtuse about taking a stand on Constitutional liberties, at every turn, in every way, and promoting states' rights or even wider political autonomy.
Very well said.
-
Power only respects greater power.
Cede your ability/willingness to use power from the get-go and you can expect others with power to treat you with less respect.