Is it all about the money: red light cameras

[MillCreek]

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/08/13/211723717/a-dilemma-zone-for-red-light-cameras-safety-vs-cash?ft=1&f=1001

These have gotten a lot of press up here in recent years as more cities have started using them.  In one local city, Lynnwood, approximately a quarter of the city's revenue comes from red light cameras.

[HankB]

I think there's a market for two different types of paintball ammo - one filled with opaque epoxy resin, one filled with hardener. MUCH safer than shooting upwards with live ammo in a populated area, and a lens obscured with epoxy won't be taking clear pictures. 

[Marnoot]

I imagine they're pretty similar to the speed cameras I've encountered as far as how they're run. In AZ on my wedding day, I got two speeding tickets on the way to my wedding. From two cameras a 1/4-mile apart on the same stretch of road. I looked into fighting them (what stops them from putting them even closer together? 10 tickets for someone speeding through a half mile, score!), but from what I could see from others experiences the court the tickets went through was pretty well in bed with the company running the cameras, and the judge would uphold tickets in outrageous circumstances.

My favorite was someone got a ticket from this system in the mail, it wasn't their car in the photo, and was obviously not them driving. The judge still ordered them to pay. They had to appeal to the superior court to get the ticket rescinded. Given experiences like that I figured it wouldn't be worth the trouble, paid the extortion money and vowed to not spend any money in the relevant city again if I can avoid it. They have since removed the cameras in the state, I believe.

[tokugawa]

Pretty soon they will use the car's black box with a GPS and uplink, we will be mailed the ticket or have it automatically deducted from our bank account. 

[Jocassee]

I imagine they're pretty similar to the speed cameras I've encountered as far as how they're run. In AZ on my wedding day, I got two speeding tickets on the way to my wedding. From two cameras a 1/4-mile apart on the same stretch of road. I looked into fighting them (what stops them from putting them even closer together? 10 tickets for someone speeding through a half mile, score!), but from what I could see from others experiences the court the tickets went through was pretty well in bed with the company running the cameras, and the judge would uphold tickets in outrageous circumstances.

I received two "tickets" in AZ under the exact same circumstances. Problem is they weren't actually tickets. A ticket is a court summons. You have to either show up or pay. On the documents they sent me there was a little box and signature line where you sign away your right to an actual summons. I never responded in any fashion and never heard anything else. Granted I wasn't driving my car, but since it was a friend of mine I had him give AZ my name and address. My guess is for out of state stuff it isn't worth it. Used to I think AZ had to phsyically give you the summons but now I think they can send em by mail.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

same thing with the ticket i received from pa for my cheap going through an easy pass lane sans easy pass

[brimic]

Pretty soon they will use the car's black box with a GPS and uplink, we will be mailed the ticket or have it automatically deducted from our bank account.

Hacking black boxes to disable certain features could be a very lucrative business in the future.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Hacking black boxes to disable certain features could be a very lucrative business in the future.

farraday cage around antennae

[MechAg94]

All you have to do is ask:  Are the speeding/red light cameras located at the intersections or areas with the most accidents or the ones with the most traffic and potential revenue?  I recall a Texas Legislator making that comment about it here.  Were the red light cameras on the light in the middle of town or were they at the light out on the highway.  They were always out on the highway. 

[Scout26]

When they are not used for good old fashioned kickbacks and bribery:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/watchdog/ct-met-redflex-chicago-investigation-0316-20130316,0,4173395.story

The ones around here they shortened the yellow time, simply to generate more revenue.  Thus causing more accidents:

http://blogs.lawyers.com/2013/05/red-light-cameras-cause-accidents/


It's for the chillun's.

[MrsSmith]

All you have to do is ask:  Are the speeding/red light cameras located at the intersections or areas with the most accidents or the ones with the most traffic and potential revenue?  I recall a Texas Legislator making that comment about it here.  Were the red light cameras on the light in the middle of town or were they at the light out on the highway.  They were always out on the highway. 

That's what I wondered - what's the significance of one spot over another? There's one at a light in mid-town. Fairly busy road with stoplights every block, but only one is photo-enforced. Not seeing the logic in this. It's the only one I know of, but I'm sure there are more.

[Tallpine]

someone got a ticket from this system in the mail

How does that work ... registered mail with return receipt

[Triphammer]

Same as jury summons. Assume received & issue an arrest warrant if you fail to show up.

[Levant]

It's not safety.  The cities get the system for free in exchange for giving the vendor a piece of the pie.  It's pure extortion.  

Red light accidents do not happen in the first seconds after the light changes.  In that case, traffic coming the other way is already stopped and will see the car running the light - or at least is obligated to verify that the intersection is actually clear before proceeding on the green light.  It is the red light runner 3 to 8 seconds later and beyond that cause the accidents.

In Oklahoma, as in most states, they publish stopping distances based on speed.  Additionally, they teach, and test, that you should follow two or three seconds or longer because that is the reaction time to recognize and respond to a traffic hazard.  So the state recognizes that it takes up to three seconds to respond - or even work with the two second figure.  Next, take the safe stopping time at the speed limit on the street where the camera is, and you can accurately predict the minimum yellow time that should be enforceable using the state's own figures.  Any time a ticket is issued with a yellow that is shorter than that it is abusive and not justifiable.

I can't stop wondering how we expect to take back our country from abusive and self-serving government when we can't take back even the smallest towns in America from abusive and self-serving government.

[Cliffh]

I'd heard something today about cameras on stop signs, a quick ASK search found that cameras indeed being mounted on stop signs.  Not only the stationary signs at intersections, but also the stop signs on school buses.

[MechAg94]

I can't stop wondering how we expect to take back our country from abusive and self-serving government when we can't take back even the smallest towns in America from abusive and self-serving government.

The trick is getting the voters interested and getting the state legislators to ignore the city lobbyists.  Not easy.  We didn't manage to outlaw them in Texas, but they were limited and regulated.  They were also limited to civil fines only. For a while there, I was afraid they were going to start popping up everywhere. 

[Levant]

It wouldn't take much work at all, virtually anywhere in the nation, to unseat a city councilman.  Granted, a Houston city councilman would be tougher than an Oklahoma governor, but it could still be done.  And certainly anywhere outside of a metropolis.  We need to start in our own town and work out from there.  Grass roots doesn't work nationally but it will spread like a national wildfire if we start with our own cities and towns and our own state legislators.

[Hawkmoon]

The ones around here they shortened the yellow time, simply to generate more revenue.  Thus causing more accidents:

That has been reported at various locations all across the country. Red light cameras are one thing, but shortening the yellow light interval to less than the minimum safe time recommended by traffic experts is unconscionable. And, yes, statistics are showing that intersections with red light cameras have subsequently experienced a dramatic increase in rear end collisions as drivers slam on the brakes, trying to avoid getting a camera citation.

[TechMan]

We had the same issue here in Cincinnati, but with speed cameras.  A small town around here setup 2 speeding cameras in the name of "safety".  In one month they issued 6,600 tickets for a total of $1.5 million.  The local businesses in the area started to see a decline in customers and the customers were telling them that they were not coming back because of the cameras.  The businesses sued the town and the judge ruled that the cameras were illegal as they violated due process.  He order the town to take them down.  The town decided to ignore him.  This thumbing of the town's nose was brought to the judge's attention, who got very angry (rightfully so), he ordered the sheriff to confiscate the cameras.  I believe the town and the speed camera company may be facing a class action civil lawsuit.  IIRC the state legislature may be working on a bill to make all these cameras illegal.

[MechAg94]

I think very few people like automated enforcement and fines. 

When it gets down to it, what would happen if all traffic enforcement stopped.  Limit LEOs to enforcing hit and run and going after people for causing accidents/problems. 

[Tallpine]

I think very few people like automated enforcement and fines. 

When it gets down to it, what would happen if all traffic enforcement stopped.  Limit LEOs to enforcing hit and run and going after people for causing accidents/problems. 

They would have to find some other way to extort money.

[HankB]

After speed cameras, what . . . ?

[RevDisk]

Exposed belts = free ammo.

I approve.   

[brimic]

Exposed belts = free ammo.

I approve.   

Free sentry gun.

[Scout26]

That's one Sawzall blade away from being in my front yard.  "Get off my lawn!!!" 


Also see http://www.shortyellowlights.com/standards/

For the recommended yellow light times and formula used by the Institute for Traffic Engineers.  If the yellows are shorter then that they are creating a traffic hazard.  That may or may not be actionable in court.  IANAL,NDISAAHIELN.  Your mileage may vary. Check your state lawyers and local traffic engineer.