Women in combat arms

[makattak]

She hoisted seven grown men up trees while injured, tied them to the trees, and then advanced on the enemy. Then she killed ten German troops in close combat.

Do you take all Soviet propaganda at face value?

I'm not saying she didn't do it. I'm saying I'm skeptical- I place an automatic flag on any information reported by a Communist government.

[RevDisk]

I served with women in non-combat roles. Officially noncombat. Signal units tend to be everywhere, including the "front lines." Thing is, there rarely is a front line anymore. Combat can be friggin anywhere.

It's very simple. Allow women to join if they wish, and keep the standards uniform and job specific. Can you raise an antenna mast? Fine. You can be a 25U. Can you ruck 80 lbs for 20 miles? Fine, you can be an 11B. PT standards are not the best indicator. They're good enough indicators. I had PT gods that could not hang during forced ruck marches carrying their load, plus SAW, plus body armor, plus the kitchen sink. I've had PT gods that could max running, situps and pushups...  And couldn't lift a 60 lb radio or carry an M2 by himself. (Fillipino dude, I think he weighted maybe 100 lbs, he was often on profile to INCREASE his weight.) But, by and by, PT scores are the lowest common denominator.

Some female soldiers were good, some sucked horribly, and most were good enough to get the job done. We had an all-female medevac crew, that everyone requested first because they were very good. We also had female soldiers NO ONE requested, EVER. Best and most requested female soldier I knew was Bombe. She was tiny. Like, "How did she get into the Army, even with a waiver?" tiny. She was a wrench monkey, and could fit into engine compartments that no other guys could. Often, one or two of the big guys would pick her up, and lower her into the engine, and she could fix whatever upset down, with no issues. Walking through the motor pool, you'd often see two feet sticking out of the most random places on, in or under vehicles. She wasn't the best skilled wrench monkey (that was the MSG, 30+ years in), but she was a very practical one.

Set the standard, and set it appropriately. Those that make it will do good enough.

[RevDisk]

Do you take all Soviet propaganda at face value?

I'm not saying she didn't do it. I'm saying I'm skeptical- I place an automatic flag on any information reported by a Communist government.

She was denied three times for Hero of the Soviet Union, makattak. Soviet propaganda tried to hide the Soviet inequality, not promote it. She was given the Hero of the Soviet Union, Order of Lenin and Gold Star by President Gorbachev on 5 May 1990. Not only because of her actions during the Great Patriotic War. She also served in the Soviet Red Cross and Red Crescent Society, and did plenty of other doctor-hero type stuff.

She was awarded the Orders of the Patriotic War and Order of the Red Banner, during the Great Patriotic War. Which is about as expected for someone not politically correct to get a Hero of the Soviet Union at the time.

[Fitz]

This is a new one.

I was told I don't want women in the infantry because I don't want the poor innocent women I rape to have a gun.

[Perd Hapley]

This is a new one.

I was told I don't want women in the infantry because I don't want the poor innocent women I rape to have a gun.

Doesn't this person know that guns are useless against rapists?

[BlueStarLizzard]

I would like to see a military that can take advantage of the strengths or skills more inherent in women then men, rather then a military that disregards such in favor of insisting women be men.

It might be a pipe dream, but that's what I'd like. I still don't hold with lowering standards. There should be no reason a guy has to do 37 push ups and the women only do 19.

But even a womans smaller stature can be a benifit (like the lady Rev served with) and could be in combat. She might not be able to carry a fellow solider out of a flaming humvee, but can you... Let's say a humvee flipped and someones trapped underneath, crawl under there and give aid or stablize the wounded till the humvee can be removed? Could you fit?

IDK, having never served, but seems to me I would prefer being in a group with a varity of diffrent skills or talents that could cover a multitude of scenorios, then "one size fits all" group that can only do a things to a certain standard.

Like I said, pipe dream and an idealized veiw of a misty future. For now, in regards to the US Military, I'll just leave it at "if she can hack it, let her go." which includes dealing with the gender politics of the situation.

[Fitz]

I would like to see a military that can take advantage of the strengths or skills more inherent in women then men, rather then a military that disregards such in favor of insisting women be men.

It might be a pipe dream, but that's what I'd like. I still don't hold with lowering standards. There should be no reason a guy has to do 37 push ups and the women only do 19.

But even a womans smaller stature can be a benifit (like the lady Rev served with) and could be in combat. She might not be able to carry a fellow solider out of a flaming humvee, but can you... Let's say a humvee flipped and someones trapped underneath, crawl under there and give aid or stablize the wounded till the humvee can be removed? Could you fit?

IDK, having never served, but seems to me I would prefer being in a group with a varity of diffrent skills or talents that could cover a multitude of scenorios, then "one size fits all" group that can only do a things to a certain standard.

Like I said, pipe dream and an idealized veiw of a misty future. For now, in regards to the US Military, I'll just leave it at "if she can hack it, let her go." which includes dealing with the gender politics of the situation.

There are certainly female advantages.

I say if they adhere to MALE physical standards (and yeah, the APFT isn't a good measure. Fine. So find what IS, including ruckmarches etc) and can hack it, let em do it.

Then, the female advantages will be allowed to shine without the encumbrance of any lack of physical skill (if they're meeting the same standards as everyone else.

[erictank]

There are certainly female advantages.

I say if they adhere to MALE physical standards (and yeah, the APFT isn't a good measure. Fine. So find what IS, including ruckmarches etc) and can hack it, let em do it.

Then, the female advantages will be allowed to shine without the encumbrance of any lack of physical skill (if they're meeting the same standards as everyone else.

Thought the new APFT was centered around more practical skills than pushups, running in PT shorts and sneakers, and situps?

I agree with the majority of posters here - no problem with women in front-line infantry-combat positions, so long as they can hack the job. No double standards.

[Fitz]

New, better APFT got nixed

[drewtam]

There will never be a female U.S. Navy SEAL.

really? seems like it is already in the works

The official said the services will develop plans for allowing women to seek the combat positions. Some jobs may open as soon as this year. Assessments for others, such as special operations forces, including Navy SEALs and the Army’s Delta Force, may take longer.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2013/01/ap-panetta-women-in-combat-ban-012313

[Fitz]

really? seems like it is already in the works
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2013/01/ap-panetta-women-in-combat-ban-012313

allowing them to try != them making it. Hopefully the SEALS won't drop their standards. I doubt they will

[red headed stranger]

Do they even have Selective Services any more?

Yep. In order to work for the government and many contractors you need to be registered.  You also need to be registered to take get federal student aid. 

[TommyGunn]

There will never be a female U.S. Navy SEAL.

really? seems like it is already in the works


Quote
The official said the services will develop plans for allowing women to seek the combat positions. Some jobs may open as soon as this year. Assessments for others, such as special operations forces, including Navy SEALs and the Army’s Delta Force, may take longer.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2013/01/ap-panetta-women-in-combat-ban-012313

They may try, but it won't happen.  If they lower the standard for the women ... maybe. 
If there is a female SEAL here is a photo of what she might look like:

[MicroBalrog]

More likely:

[kgbsquirrel]

New, better APFT got nixed

Never understood running as part of the Navy PRT. I half-jokingly suggested it be replaced by a practical exertion test composed of putting on a full fire-fighting ensemble and SCBA, going on mask air, and then picking up a vari-nozzle attached to 50 feet of sand filled fire hose and just walking with it for 30 minutes. Must keep a certain pace the entire time. Pass/fail grading.

[dm1333]

They may try, but it won't happen.  If they lower the standard for the women ... maybe. 
If there is a female SEAL here is a photo of what she might look like:

Until that first urinalysis.  They still test for steroids.

[roo_ster]

Until that first urinalysis.  They still test for steroids.

When did that begin?

They didn't when I was in, or many of my buddies would have been tossed.  MJ, cocaine, opiates, ex, but no roids back then.

[roo_ster]

Neither of those gals likely would make it in SOCOM's spiffy units.  The muscle gal would likely get stress fractures in her lower legs and feet.  Gals are more prone to them than guys in the first place and with all that meat on her, her tibia, fibula, and bones south of there would not last though a week's worth of runs or a single ruck march.  That is why you see the body builder gals on the stationary cycle when they do cardio.

The other gal is is not lean enough, you can tell by her face.  Also likely lacks the muscle needed. 

The likely female candidate will have a build more like the little guys (sub 150lbs, close to 135lbs) who make it in those sorts of units: lean & wiry, very efficient, and know how to use what they got to full effect.  Like our little medic, who when he taught the combat lifesaver course, always had my oversized self there to assist when demonstrating carry techniques.  Little man could move my 215lb self at a shambling pace.

Think an Olympic class or pro champion female boxer or suchlike.   Getting the crap knocked out of them before their service would also be a plus.







Note, none of these gals has any of the bodyfat that provides the feminine softening of features the cute gal in the beret has.

Of the gals I knew who were built this way, maybe one would have had a chance in a SOF unit, maybe a handful in infantry.  They would have to struggle mightily to maintain their strength. 

[TommyGunn]

Or, for a mere $6,000,000 maybe she could be the first SEAL:

[MicroBalrog]

Gals are more prone to them than guys in the first place and with all that meat on her, her tibia, fibula, and bones south of there would not last though a week's worth of runs or a single ruck march.

Except, the women I posted images of already made it through dozens of kilometers of ruck marches etc.

And that last lady I posted is a champion Sambist.

I'm going to take photos of what actual female special operations troops look like over your speculation, thank you.

[MicroBalrog]

The fact is, healthy women are capable of serving in combat infantry - and already do, around the world.

Healthy women in the upper-bounds of physical performance - not all of whom look like freaks  - have done special forces service around the world, in units quite as hardcore as US SOCOM in terms of physical requirements.

[gunsmith]

I was in the first ever mixed gender basic training at Ft Jackson in 77, there was a gal I liked and a Drill was running beside her and she couldn't go as fast as him ( she was barely 5ft he was nearly 7ft ) and he accidentally pushed her face first in the mud, I had a very strong urge to whack him upside the head with the nearest rock.

Later another Drill was asked about women in combat and he said he had friends that were killed by women Viet Cong and that they were just as deadly as any male.

I've never been in combat and unless "they come to git my guns" I doubt I ever will, but I'm pretty sure that most combat can be done equally by both men and women, there will be some weird situations like taking a leak under heavy enemy fire, but by the time a platoon makes it to real combat everyone will know the other soldiers capabilities and will look out for each other ... I hope...

It does seem to me that more and more our military leadership are liberal idjits more interested in engineering ideas rather then winning battles not to happy about that but not to worried about women in combat, of course its real easy for me to say that from the comfort of home.

[Fitz]

The fact is, healthy women are capable of serving in combat infantry - and already do, around the world.

Healthy women in the upper-bounds of physical performance - not all of whom look like freaks  - have done special forces service around the world, in units quite as hardcore as US SOCOM in terms of physical requirements.

Probably in countries with a better applicant pool too

I've trained female troops as a drill sergeant. I just don't see it working here

And you KNOW the US military will allow them to perform less than the males and still make it

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Except, the women I posted images of already made it through dozens of kilometers of ruck marches etc.

And that last lady I posted is a champion Sambist.

I'm going to take photos of what actual female special operations troops look like over your speculation, thank you.

what missions they go on? i mean real ones not exercises.
got a pair of grand daughters who are true warriors.  they would not cut it in some units.  by their own admission.   chief reason they give?  they couldn't haul a wounded buddy out. to them its an important detail.  ymmv

[longeyes]

If it empties the shopping malls and therefore curbs our spendaholism I'm for it.