Boy Scouts are the new Hitler Youth...

[Scout26]

True.  They call it Two Deep Leadership, meaning there must be two adults present at all time with Scouts.  There's also a Buddy System, meaning that no adult can meet one on one with a Scout in private.  So, you do one-on-one meetings off to the side of a full meeting, within sight of everyone. 

Funny, a few years back, I was doing a child custody case, in which the father was a convicted child molester of two girls.  He was asking for custody of his son.  His argument?  He was a straight pedophile, not a gay one.

Yes, when I meet with Scouts for Merit Badges, it happens at one of three places:  Their Troop meeting, McDonald's, or the Public Library.  I ask that they bring a fellow scout or parent.

[Marnoot]

I emailed it to you, too big/graphics for a PM.

Thanks. That made it sound like the gist is possible organizational cooperation/merger with GSA, but not "program"-level co-ed integration. That is, there wouldn't be co-ed patrols, or possibly even co-ed troops. Is that a correct summation?

Re: Some LDS perspective re: the LDS church pulling out of Scouts. I think it's inevitable, given the direction BSA has been going, but I don't know how soon it will be. Co-ed units would certainly hurry it along. Our church has representatives on the National Executive Board of the BSA, including the current National Commissioner. So in some ways the LDS church has a good bit of sway on decisions, but the BSA has also pulled parliamentary maneuvers in the recent past to push through decisions when LDS board-members were absent.

A very big factor for the LDS church that's completely separate from all the recent BSA drama is the fact that we have youth in countries all over the world, and the Boy Scouts of America is only available in . . . America, so I think a departure from BSA will happen at some point regardless of any self-immolation the BSA undergoes as we are looking for a unified program for our youth across the world. The recent departure from the Varsity and Explorer programs was only surprising in that it didn't happen sooner. The 14-18 year old young-men programs in most congregations have never really closely adhered to those programs, largely due to many boys losing interest as they age out of regular Boy Scouts.

[MechAg94]

and the Boy Scouts of America is only available in . . . America

I was thinking scouts have been around the world for quite some time, but I have no idea how big it is in other parts. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Organization_of_the_Scout_Movement_members

[Scout26]

The recent departure from the Varsity and Explorer programs was only surprising in that it didn't happen sooner. The 14-18 year old young-men programs in most congregations have never really closely adhered to those programs, largely due to many boys losing interest as they age out of regular Boy Scouts.

The impression we were given was the at least initially Cub Scouting will be Co-ed.

And Varsity scouting isn't all that big.  And it's Sports oriented.  We don't have any Varisty Crews in our entire council. 

Venturing (which is more high Adventure and Co-Ed for 14-21 yo youth) is what LDS pulled out of recently.  They focus on one of more high adventure type activities like Whitewater Rafting, Rock Climbing, Shooting Sports, etc.

Exploring is more career based (We have Veterinary, Police, and Fire Exploring Posts in our council, I can't see the LDS dropping those any time soon) for 14-21 yo youth.  Again Co-Ed, but not camping and like, they go to Vet's office or the Police Station/Fire House for their meetings.  Those are run by the Vet, Police Dept or Fire Dept, and not so much by the BSA.

It will be interesting.

[T.O.M.]

I don't know how Varsity scouting is surviving.   Kids that age into sports are generally involved in either club/travel programs or school programs.  Exploring survives because of law enforcement and fire programs primarily, but some others like Scout...Amy...mentioned.  Venturing is available in my area, just not as popular.

I've heard Cubs are going to be co-ed, like Venturing.  The future of Scouting is yet to be determined.  But I know of at least two possible suits based on refusal to admit females, citing to the value of an Eagle Scout medal for future employment, military enlistment, etc.  Wonder how much that will come into play in the eventual decision.

[Hawkmoon]

But I know of at least two possible suits based on refusal to admit females, citing to the value of an Eagle Scout medal for future employment, military enlistment, etc.  Wonder how much that will come into play in the eventual decision.

So why can't the Girl Scouts have an Eagle Scout program, without merging with the Boy Scouts?

[Marnoot]

Oops, yeah, not Explorer scouts (I don't deal with the older kids, and they've changed that stuff around a bit, the last 25 years), yeah it was Varsity and Venturing the LDS church pulled out of. As mentioned, I've never been in a ward/congregation that really did the actual Varsity or Venturing programs, so that exit was no surprise. The older boys do plenty of high-adventure stuff in the summers, but nothing really formal within those programs.

I was thinking scouts have been around the world for quite some time, but I have no idea how big it is in other parts.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Organization_of_the_Scout_Movement_members

There are definitely other organizations, but they're completely separate organizations from the BSA only loosely associated by general mission and ideological origin. It'd be quite a mess to try integrate with the different local Scouting organizations in every single country.

So why can't the Girl Scouts have an Eagle Scout program, without merging with the Boy Scouts?

It's less about giving girls more opportunities as it is about attempting to water-down differences. Differences are bad-think and double-plus ungood.

A(n effective) girl scouting organization (not to be confused with Girl Scouts) could create a program that would equate the effort, focus, drive, and usefulness of an Eagle Scout award, but for girls, and be more focused on things girls find interesting and useful. But They're not interested in such things. They're only interested in sameness.

[Pb]

Boy Scouts apologizes for Trump's speech:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/07/27/539802987/boy-scouts-chief-apologizes-for-political-rhetoric-in-trumps-speech

[makattak]

So why can't the Girl Scouts have an Eagle Scout program, without merging with the Boy Scouts?

Because leftists are like Melkor. They cannot create, they can only mangle and corrupt the good until it serves their purpose.

(From which we get this modus operandi:

1. Identify a respected institution.
2. kill it.
3. gut it.
4. wear its carcass as a skin suit, while demanding respect.
#lefties)

[DittoHead]

Boy Scouts apologizes for Trump's speech

They apologized? But Trump said it was "the greatest speech that was ever made to them"?  

[Ben]

Folks here know I'm generally socially liberal. And my take is, the BSA were morons for giving in to demands of an extreme minority of marginal scouts. Yes, I'm aware it's hard for an organization to fight off legal battles of dozens of angry activists. But they should have dug in their heels. WHILE offering to help support special scouts for whatever niche group. "You want Scouts to accept Apache attack helicopters as a valid alternative gender? Fine. You're now the Apache Helicopter Scout Troop #1. Have a nice day. Insurance premiums are $10,000. Due net 30 or your chapter is disbanded."

By giving in not just to SJW but every Safety Gestapo and Tile Crawler Sue Happy lawyers to serve them papers, they gutted themselves. They could have tried to get a legal shield, like the gun manufacturers did. Instead, they caved and caved and caved. Until except for a handful of well led troops, their numbers dropped like a rock. Lawfare and poor leadership killed the Scouts. I'm sure the name and brand will survive for couple more decades.

Freedom of association sure has taken a beating over the last couple decades. Take any association with any substantial meaning, and try to reduce it to the lowest, most meaningless common denominator while crying a river over individual edge cases that couldn't make the cut.

I wish more organizations would dig their heels in as well, but in some ways understand why some just give in. Refer to the Christian bakery in Oregon that was fined $135K by the state and lost their business for digging in heels.

I just do not understand the mindset of those who actively pursue people or organizations they disagree with and force them to completely change for "social justice". Start your own group (like the Mormons are doing*) and set whatever philosophy you want.


*And they're not the ones who should have to be starting their own organization. Marnoot should pipe up since I only have "headline knowledge", but AFAIK, they were hunky dory with BSA until BSA started changing their core values.

[Perd Hapley]

I just do not understand the mindset of those who actively pursue people or organizations they disagree with and force them to completely change for "social justice".

It's how you "fundamentally transform" America. To put it another way, it's how you destroy America, erecting a "progressive" "liberal" European-style democracy in its place.

[Marnoot]

Marnoot should pipe up since I only have "headline knowledge", but AFAIK, they were hunky dory with BSA until BSA started changing their core values.

I've piped-up above, but to go more into that specific if BSA hadn't turned into a SJW doormat the LDS church would be more likely to have stuck with BSA long term. The church still had/has the desire and need for a unified program for boys and young men throughout the world. If the BSA hadn't started the string of caving-in it could have gone two ways:

1) Stick with BSA in the United States and develop a similar church-run program for boys in other countries.
2) Develop a similar church-run program for boys in all countries and withdraw from the BSA.

With things being what they actually are, I see option 2 as inevitable. Had the BSA kept their backbone it would have been more likely to be option 1, at least for the foreseeable future, as our present leadership have been big believers in the benefits of Scouting for boys.

[T.O.M.]

I've piped-up above, but to go more into that specific if BSA hadn't turned into a SJW doormat the LDS church would be more likely to have stuck with BSA long term. The church still had/has the desire and need for a unified program for boys and young men throughout the world. If the BSA hadn't started the string of caving-in it could have gone two ways:

1) Stick with BSA in the United States and develop a similar church-run program for boys in other countries.
2) Develop a similar church-run program for boys in all countries and withdraw from the BSA.

With things being what they actually are, I see option 2 as inevitable. Had the BSA kept their backbone it would have been more likely to be option 1, at least for the foreseeable future, as our present leadership have been big believers in the benefits of Scouting for boys.

That matches conversations I've had with LDS Scout leaders in the recent past.  LDS wants a youth organization.  BSA had a solid program in place.  Rather than reinvent the wheel, they went along, but still had a desire to have one of their own.  Don't know if the social issues made up their minds, but it sure didn't hurt their desire to have a program of their own.

[T.O.M.]

I wish more organizations would dig their heels in as well, but in some ways understand why some just give in. Refer to the Christian bakery in Oregon that was fined $135K by the state and lost their business for digging in heels.

I just do not understand the mindset of those who actively pursue people or organizations they disagree with and force them to completely change for "social justice". Start your own group (like the Mormons are doing*) and set whatever philosophy you want.

Hate to say it comes down to money. but it does.  With BSA, they've got pending/possible litigation in several states, in state and federal court, regarding girls in BSA.  At the same time, they're still dealing with the wreckage of the gay issues, and the financial/membership losses from that.  And they're anticipating the losses that will come when LDS pulls all of the boys from the program, which is estimated to be around 16%-20% of the current membership (2.4 million Scouts).  And with that loss of membership will come the loss of funds from Mormon donors.

Once upon a time, in Title IX, there was a specific provision allowing for single sex organizations including, by name, Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts.  What's now being argued is, like Brown v. Topeka Board of Ed., separate but equal ain't flying here, because they are separate and unequal.  BSA is arguing that it's a private organization, it's permitted under Title IX, and it's tradition and a key part of the program.  Argument back?  Scouts are co-ed in a lot of countries.  Laws change to reflect the society they were made for.  And, lots of traditions die off because of progress.  Women graduated Ranger School, and may soon be going to BUDS.  They may have to argue that the exceptions in Title IX are unconstitutional, which depending on how "progressive" the judge is, may or may not happen.  Bottom line is that for an organization losing money by the bucketful, looking down the barrel of expensive litigation in several courts isn't a great view.  And, even if they win, how long will this last?  Dems win control over one or both houses next time, Title IX gets amended to remove the protections, and BSA/GSA as single sex organizations are history.  Even if Dems don't win, some RhINOS may do this for them.

Got Scout meeting tonight.  Hope to hear our newest Eagle passed his Board of Review.

[Scout26]

It's less about giving girls more opportunities as it is about attempting to water-down differences. Differences are bad-think and double-plus ungood.

A(n effective) girl scouting organization (not to be confused with Girl Scouts) could create a program that would equate the effort, focus, drive, and usefulness of an Eagle Scout award, but for girls, and be more focused on things girls find interesting and useful. But They're not interested in such things. They're only interested in sameness.

Actually it is about giving girls more opportunities.  Think about it.  No men are allowed to be GSA leaders.  So they don't camp very much (maybe in someone's backyard, but not "out in the woods"), because the Mom's/Leaders don't like camping.  Also they don't do cool stuff.  Like I said, the Cubmaster's daughter who is older than her brothers, like going on the Pack Campouts and to the the Den meeting because they do "Fun Stuff", unlike her GSA Troop.   And the GSA has the Gold Award, which is the equivalent of Eagle Scout.  But no one knows that.  No one even knows what a Gold Award is.  Everyone knows "Eagle Scout", they may not know the hows or whys, but they know it's a big deal.

And that's where Girl Scouts loses their members, they don't do the Cool and Fun stuff that Boy Scouts do.

Just compare magazines







It's not that hard to understand why many pre-teen and teenage girls want to be in Cub/Boy Scouts.

[Marnoot]

My point was just that someone could start a girl scouting organization (again, not GSA) that was just as fun and effective as BSA has been historically, even be an allied organization of the BSA. Rather than do that, they've attacked the BSA and are trying to re-form it in the process.

I'm sure much of the pressure on the BSA is from what you say, girls that just want to do the BSA-type stuff since GSA sure doesn't, I've no problem with them and am sympathetic to the lack of a good program for them. My problem is with the more shrill SJW voices insisting girls must be the same as boys, and therefore must belong to the exact same organizations as boys, filing lawsuits to force a private organization at proverbial gunpoint to admit members the organization was never designed or intended for.

Done well, I'd have no issue with a combined Scouting organization that ran very similar, but perhaps appropriately different, programs for boys and girls, with gender-specific patrols/dens. However the SJW-folk won't be happy until troops and patrols are all co-ed, LGBTBBQ+ and other-kin friendly and requirements, ranks, and awards are all watered-down beyond recognition.

[Perd Hapley]

A girl's group is talking about fashion? What's next? A boy's group racing toy cars?  

Surely there are (or could be) youth-oriented groups that teach outdoor skills, but without being gender-based. Surely, we don't have to sacrifice something as vital as gender distinctions to achieve that.

[Scout26]

That training is required I think nearly every year as well. I know I've taken it at least 4 times.

Youth Protection is required every two years. 

[Marnoot]

Surely there are (or could be) youth-oriented groups that teach outdoor skills, but without being gender-based. Surely, we don't have to sacrifice something as vital as gender distinctions to achieve that.

Surely there could be, and no reason not to, but must it be created by essentially forcing an existing gender-based organization to fill the role?

[Perd Hapley]

Surely there could be, and no reason not to, but must it be created by essentially forcing an existing gender-based organization to fill the role?

It must be, or you're a facist!!11

[KD5NRH]

Had the BSA kept their backbone it would have been more likely to be option 1, at least for the foreseeable future, as our present leadership have been big believers in the benefits of Scouting for boys.

Had the BSA ever had a backbone, there would have been some outside verification of skills signed off by Scoutmaster Dad, at least for Eagle candidates.

[Marnoot]

Had the BSA ever had a backbone, there would have been some outside verification of skills signed off by Scoutmaster Dad, at least for Eagle candidates.

Not sure what you're getting at with that non-sequitur, though I don't disagree in the slightest. Requirement-lax Eagle Scout mills are a problem with troops inside and outside the LDS church, and in fact is one of many problems I've had with the BSA. I'm actually not quite so big a BSA fan as my posts might suggest. I'm absolutely against the SJW-pressured changes to the BSA, and I actively support and work with the Scouts I lead to get their requirements (legitimately) fulfilled, but I'm not going to miss it awfully when the LDS church goes to its own alternative. I've had issues with some of the council/district-level financial management, fundraising issues, some of the rank requirements, etc. for years.

I think it's a great program for many, even most, boys. I don't think it's a great fit for every boy, and thus will welcome the extra flexibility a church-run program will provide for the youth I work with. The above thoughts are certainly my own, though; there are many hardcore pro-BSA types in my local congregation that will be quite sad about a departure.

[T.O.M.]

Had the BSA ever had a backbone, there would have been some outside verification of skills signed off by Scoutmaster Dad, at least for Eagle candidates.

In my area, any Scout going for his Eagle must appear before a board made up of volunteers chosen by the district.  The goal is to verify that the Scout satisfied the requirements.  This includes testing the Scouts knowledge and skills (as best as can be done in a meeting room).  Only when that board signs off has the Scout earned Eagle. 

In my own Troop, fathers are not permitted to sign off requirements for their own sons.  Avoids daddy giving his sons badges without truly meeting the requirements.

[Marnoot]

In my own Troop, fathers are not permitted to sign off requirements for their own sons.  Avoids daddy giving his sons badges without truly meeting the requirements.

I wish that was a BSA-wide rule. Even without the nepotistic situations like that, you also get situations where leaders let themselves get pressured by parents into passing-off a boy for some activity he missed, for instance, though that's a leader-not-having-a-backbone issue, not a BSA issue.