Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Nick1911 on March 06, 2022, 09:19:33 PM
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In your opinion, how should the west respond to Russian troops invading Ukraine, and why?
I'll start with a few arguments:
1. The west must stand up to Putin now, because a failure to do so will lead to a bigger war in the future. Appeasement didn’t work in 1939, and it won’t work now. Ukrainians have a freely elected democracy which is being attached by a defacto dictatorship. Mutually assured destruction works both ways, the western world not recognizing that will only further embolden Putin. For some reason, the west seems to think that propping up Ukraine with money and weapons, while simultaneously waging a massive economic war is just fine, but direct involvement is a bridge too far. We’re already directly involved.
2. While democracies should help each other when threatened, this is a very touchy situation in which the west must be careful. We are at present doing all that we can without further escalation. Ultimately, Ukraine may fall. However the west can not risk the implications that come with further involvement. By choosing not to play economic ball with Russia, the west is putting massive pressure on Russia, which will, in time, force a regime change.
3. NATO is a defensive alliance, and has not moral or legal obligation to interfere with the war of non-NATO states. The US is not the world police, and does not need to lose lives and material here. Further, directly interacting puts us in a shooting war with the Russians, which really could escalate to a nuclear war. We do not need to be involved! A lot of these problems are a direct result of our involvement, putting weapons right on the doorstep of Russia. Of course they are threatened, we didn’t like it too much when they did the same thing in Cuba.
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I'm concerned that the die has been cast. WW III is underway and we will soon see the *expletive deleted*it hit the fan with Russia and China as, if not direct allies at least defacto allies, against "the west" and primarily the US. It is my opinion that this is how the NWO comes to be with a totalitarian consolidation of money, power and control.
I'm possibly too optimistic.
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"Vlad, this is Donald. Tell ya what - things aren't looking too good for you long term. I'd suggest that you cut your losses, and I'll sweeten the deal... I've got a resort on Island To Be Named Later, and you and your family can move into the penthouse suites gratis. It has excellent security. What do you say?"
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I'm concerned that the die has been cast. WW III is underway and we will soon see the *expletive deleted*it hit the fan with Russia and China as, if not direct allies at least defacto allies, against "the west" and primarily the US. It is my opinion that this is how the NWO comes to be with a totalitarian consolidation of money, power and control.
I'm possibly too optimistic.
Well, it could be. Many people didn't really think WWII was a thing until Germany invaded France, well after Germany invaded Poland. It's somewhat ironic, many of Hitlers earlier escapades were under the pretext of unifying the German people - in Austria or the Sudetenland. Putin, by his own written commentary, considers the Ukrainian people as fundamentally Russian, and wishes to bring them back to Russia.
History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes.
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During the Korean War, the Soviet Union didn't want to directly confront the USA.
So Russian "Volunteers" flew Mig jets out of Chinese bases against American forces in Korea. It was politically convenient for Truman to pretend this wasn't happening. Not only were the Chinese bases the jets were flying out of off limits to bombing or strafing, but even in the air, US aircraft weren't allowed to pursue their adversaries across the Yalu River dividing North Korea from China. Still, Russian pilots WERE flying directly against American pilots.
I don't know if Putin would "not see" direct NATO involvement the way Truman "didn't see" direct Soviet involvement. But if (formerly) Polish aircraft flew out of bases in western Ukraine and landed back there (instead of flying sorties originating and ending in a NATO country) there would be no actual direct NATO involvement.
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Unfortunately it is number 1 unless Putin falls down the stairs or shoots himself in the back of the head a few times. This is a real damned if we do, damned if we don't deal. Our world order is changing. I know a lot of us here don't like empire America but we have been pretty good at it in the sense that we kept the ones that would do it way less benign contained. Our strength and reach has kept relative peace since WWII. Putin has just destroyed his country, erased decades of progress since the fall of communism. Superpowers don't go quietly. Big winner is going to be India or China. Might as well stop this guy now before it takes a lot more.
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This isn't about how the US gov is responding, but rather how US big business and big tech are responding. IMO, they are doing it wrong.
Who does killing internet, killing US financial services, and killing dumbass crap like Netflix hurt? It's not really hurting the Russian government at all. They have alternatives for finances and internet. It's hurting the Russian populace. Most of the US entities doing this are Trump haters. How would they have felt if foreign businesses did this to us while Trump was in charge because they didn't like something the Trump admin was doing? And who in the US would it hurt?
The only thing (IMO) this virtue signaling is doing is creating push/pull factors that are driving Russia that much closer to China. At this very moment, Russia and China are looking to lock Russia into the CCP's financial systems, thus bypassing US financial services. China can not only replace Russia's internet access, but likely create a viable global alternative to the internet that started in the US. And nobody in Russia gives a *expletive deleted*ck if they can't watch the crappy SJW LGBTQRS shows that make up 90% of Netflix's content.
The US is no longer the 500lb gorilla in the room for financial stuff like Visa and Mastercard. The majority global population can easily switch to China's system, and if we don't realize that there are viable competitors to things "the world has always relied on the US for", we are going to find ourselves in third world status well before the end of the century.
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We are at present doing all that we can without further escalation. Ultimately, Ukraine may fall. However the west can not risk the implications that come with further involvement.
I agree with this. We don't need to get directly involved, Ukraine isn't in NATO. What we are doing now is appropriate and pretty much the correct approach, support Ukraine and isolate Russia as much as possible.
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This a tar baby in large part of our own making. I'm not seeing any good options. The road hell is paved with good intentions. If this wasn't the intended outcome then our foreign policy establishment screwed up big time, again.
My opinion is we should try and bargain to save as much of western Ukraine as we possibly can. That probably means quietly acceding to Putins demands regarding the eastern half and Ukraine neutrality.
Fighting Russia with Ukraine as a proxy as we can see is a losing proposition, so far...
There are many in our government that are willing to fight Russia down to the very last Eastern European.
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quietly acceding to Putins demands regarding the eastern half and Ukraine neutrality.
The Obama/Crimea approach, a classic.
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https://youtu.be/RHxZyPdo3L0?t=160
FOX interview with Douglas Macgregor. "Zalensky is a puppet"
His opinion is that Putin wanted or would have accepted a neutral Ukraine.
Doesn't mean Putin is a good guy, just that there are no good guys in this one. Pray for the Ukrainian people stuck in the middle.
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The Obama/Crimea approach, a classic.
Like I said, you guys are happy to fight Russia down to the last East European. Throwing our troops into conflicts with no plan to win and get out is always in the neocon back pocket as well.
If anyone gets a chance to watch the long University of Chicago lecture I posted from 2015 I'd be curious to hear a rebuttal. He acknowledged his thoughts were the minority position but a lot of what he forecasted 6 years ago has come to pass.
The real play as I'm seeing it now would have been to take our time, not pushing the issue in Ukraine but slowly unofficially integrating them into the western economy. That of course ran the risk of Russia getting stronger in the meanwhile. NATO declarations of welcoming them into the organization eventually and talks of EU integration eventually has provoked this whole mess. This was either on purpose or out of incompetence. Either way it doesn't speak well of the establishment.
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It's not a "good" answer, but the best I've got.
Keep doing what we're doing. Isolate Russia economically with sanctions and the pull out everyone seems to be doing.
Give Ukraine weapons, logistics, and humanitarian aid. And hope it turns into a quagmire for Russia.
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Like I said, you guys are happy to fight Russia down to the last East European. Throwing our troops into conflicts with no plan to win and get out is always in the neocon back pocket as well.
If anyone gets a chance to watch the long University of Chicago lecture I posted from 2015 I'd be curious to hear a rebuttal. He acknowledged his thoughts were the minority position but a lot of what he forecasted 6 years ago has come to pass.
The real play as I'm seeing it now would have been to take our time, not pushing the issue in Ukraine but slowly unofficially integrating them into the western economy. That of course ran the risk of Russia getting stronger in the meanwhile. NATO declarations of welcoming them into the organization eventually and talks of EU integration eventually has provoked this whole mess. This was either on purpose or out of incompetence. Either way it doesn't speak well of the establishment.
Where did you post that? The other thread has gotten pretty long.
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I'm rooting for Oceania. I hope Eurasia and Eastasia form a coalition so we can wipe them all out!
Patriotic Fervor Song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-LQahV5pV8)
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Where did you post that? The other thread has gotten pretty long.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4&t=1s
He wasn't right about everything back then but things change in six years also.
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I'm rooting for Oceania. I hope Eurasia and Eastasia form a coalition so we can wipe them all out!
Patriotic Fervor Song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-LQahV5pV8)
How about it, that's why I post crazy things like "maybe this was the plan all along". Firing up conflicts and wars helps consolidate power and keeps the populace on edge. Maybe I'm giving government(s) too much credit and it's incompetence.
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How about it, that's why I post crazy things like "maybe this was the plan all along". Firing up conflicts and wars helps consolidate power and keeps the populace on edge. Maybe I'm giving government(s) too much credit and it's incompetence.
The incompetence of others is the main thing that keeps my paranoia in check. Honestly, I think Orwell was overestimating people's capability by having three main political rivals. It seems that the majority of people can't consider more than two sides to an issue. I'm not sure if that lack of capability is innate or a culturally-induced limitation.
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Send the Ukrainians weapons and other supplies.
We should not fight Russia on behalf of the Ukrainians.
Talking about admitting them to NATO appears to be a huge mistake. I don't we should have expanded NATO eastward at all. Frankly, I'm not sure what the purpose of NATO is at all now. I am leaning towards thinking the USA should leave NATO. The Europeans can fight their own horrific wars.
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Talking about admitting them to NATO appears to be a huge mistake. I don't we should have expanded NATO eastward at all. Frankly, I'm not sure what the purpose of NATO is at all now. I am leaning towards thinking the USA should leave NATO. The Europeans can fight their own horrific wars.
I think "now" proves conclusively what the purpose of NATO is.
In 2014 I thought NATO should have helped Ukraine kick Russia out of Crimea. They didn't, and now we're getting a Mulligan.
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NATO declarations of welcoming them into the organization eventually and talks of EU integration eventually has provoked this whole mess.
Your framing of this conflict has consistently portrayed Putin as lacking any agency whatsoever, and implicitly any responsibility. It's always him being provoked by others yet he is the one who is attempting to dictate what other countries can and cannot do. Why is Putin allowed to decree that Ukraine can't even consider joining NATO or the EU? He's the one drawing absurd "red lines" concerning the actions of other free countries, it's not everyone else's fault that those supposed lines are crossed when they are unreasonable and no one agreed to them to begin with.
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Your framing of this conflict has consistently portrayed Putin as lacking any agency whatsoever, and implicitly any responsibility. It's always him being provoked by others yet he is the one who is attempting to dictate what other countries can and cannot do. Why is Putin allowed to decree that Ukraine can't even consider joining NATO or the EU? He's the one drawing absurd "red lines" concerning the actions of other free countries, it's not everyone else's fault that those supposed lines are crossed when they are unreasonable and no one agreed to them to begin with.
Why? Because NATO is seen as an organization that was organized as the enemy of USSR/Russia.
You are 180 degrees wrong about me not ascribing agency to Putin. I've pointed out regularly that he has been stating in no uncertain terms that Russia will not allow Ukraine to fall into the wests orbit (NATO/EU). We don't have to like it but that is the reality. The west either ignored the reality or acted in a manor that they knew would provoke Russia into military conflict. The strategic significance of Ukraine to Russia is utterly missing from nearly ALL western media.
I'll give our side the benefit of the doubt that they ignored the reality thinking they could use financial leverage to keep Russia in line.
So the brainiacs running the west have managed to lose Ukraine completely and drive Russia, China and probably India into using something other than the dollar for trade amongst themselves. Great job guys.
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Send the Ukrainians weapons and other supplies.
We should not fight Russia on behalf of the Ukrainians.
Talking about admitting them to NATO appears to be a huge mistake. I don't we should have expanded NATO eastward at all. Frankly, I'm not sure what the purpose of NATO is at all now. I am leaning towards thinking the USA should leave NATO. The Europeans can fight their own horrific wars.
There's nothing wrong with treaties. And the US/European trade system inherent to Western life and philosophy is the sole reason for the existence of NATO. As much as I don't like the US as the policeman of the world, the US has every right to engage in international treaties and defense pacts. Every obligation to do so.
What I earnestly want, is the US to stand on the following principles:
1. Defense of the lives of US citizens
2. Defense of the rights of US citizens
3. Defense of the natural rights of all human beings as espoused in the Declaration of Independence
4. Defense of property and trade of US citizens around the world (not to be confused with intrusionary/intimidation based squatting and interference)
There's a hierarchy here, and for the US to act, say, on #3 or #4, then there needs to be an articulable and imminent threat to #1 and #2 to risk American lives in war on foreign soil. And it's important that #3 be above #4 for any action to be moral.
In regards to this quagmire? That's a tough knot to unravel.
I'm confident that the Ukrainian revolution in 2014-2015 that put pro-Western parties in power was certainly CIA backed. I see no difference between that, and the Donbas and other separatist action in the west of Ukraine whose name I cannot remember, which are both fomented by Moscow in interest of Russia.
Putin is looking at this in two facets.
1. Territorial defense. In a classic ground invasion, he wants a front that is as small as possible to make it easier to defend. The Warsaw Pact era pushed such a defensive line all the way to Germany. If Ukraine joins NATO that line stretches from the Baltics to the Black Sea and is indefensible.
2. Economic interest. Russia has a near-monopoly on oil sales to Europe. If Ukraine begins operating its own oil interests, it can use oil transport infrastructure that the Soviet Union built and paid for, to compete with Russia for European market share.
I think that the pre-20th century perspective on territorial control is effectively dead. Territory is a liability, when all is said and done. It's nothing but infrastructure demands, "peasants" to appease, and territory to monitor. Resources certainly matter, but those can be accessed even on foreign territory through trade and development agreements and private property rights. Putin's economic perspective is in some ways in conflict with Western notions, but then again, a lot of US foreign interventions have been couched in counter-terrorism but have involved US investment in resource development in the offending country.
Ultimately I see Russia as having breached the Budapest Memorandum of 1994, when it comes to addressing Ukraine today. However, the Budapest Memorandum effectively has no teeth, and does not obligate the US to participate in defense of Ukraine under the current conditions. France and China supposedly granted Ukraine security assurances related to the document, but not the US, or Germany/Poland/NATO/anyone else. I don't know what those security assurances entail.
I don't see this invasion as a threat to the US, as sad and distasteful as it is. It's not a genocide/extermination event; we don't have Jews in gas chambers or racial concentration camps or anything like that. It's a territorial annexation with the intent of gaining economic control/leverage. The market it impacts is Europe, not the US.
Europe has a population of about 750 million people. Russia accounts for perhaps 150 million, and Ukraine about 40 million. There's 400-500 million people living on the European continent that are members of NATO without counting the US. They have several of the strongest economies in the world and a strong manufacturing base.
Europe can handle this if they want to. The US should sit back and be the MAD deterrent, holding the NATO charter prominently. If Russia introduces nukes into a Europe-led ground war, then it's time for the US to get involved as the NATO treaty dictates. If Europe is the primary party that wants Ukraine into the EU (and possibly NATO) then Europe can handle it. No offense has been committed thus far that requires the US to get involved in a Europe/Russia conflict.
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You are 180 degrees wrong about me not ascribing agency to Putin. I've pointed out regularly that he has been stating in no uncertain terms that Russia will not allow Ukraine to fall into the wests orbit (NATO/EU). We don't have to like it but that is the reality. The west either ignored the reality or acted in a manor that they knew would provoke Russia into military conflict. The strategic significance of Ukraine to Russia is utterly missing from nearly ALL western media.
I'll give our side the benefit of the doubt that they ignored the reality thinking they could use financial leverage to keep Russia in line.
So the brainiacs running the west have managed to lose Ukraine completely and drive Russia, China and probably India into using something other than the dollar for trade amongst themselves. Great job guys.
That's not Putin's decision to make. Ukraine is a sovereign country. He tried a puppet government, and it got ousted by our puppet government, which in turn was ousted by the current government. They can decide if they want to be closer to the west or not, and do in large part to Russia's stance as shitty neighbor they have decided they'd like to be closer to the rest of Europe.
Putin making demands he has no right to make, then being aggressive when those demands are not met, then starting a war when those demands are pushed back against actively is how we got here. Neither the Ukraine nor the rest of Europe are under any obligation to cater to Russia's insecurities, or more truthfully: Russia's energy export ambitions.
It also remains to be seen if Ukraine is lost. A week ago I'd say they were, but that's the thing about war, it doesn't always turn out as predicted.
I tend to think that the west should continue giving Ukraine all the explody toys it can use, and should continue, or do more, in isolating the Russian government from money and influence over Europe. There is a real risk that might nudge Russia into a bigger war of desperation, much the way the oil embargo did to Japan, but if they're that close to going all in, I suspect it's just a matter of time until they do it anyway.
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In 2014 I thought NATO should have helped Ukraine kick Russia out of Crimea.
What do you mean by "helped"? I don't understand. Do you mean get into a war with Russia? If we did, it would probably kill millions of Americans.
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So the brainiacs running the west have managed to lose Ukraine completely and drive Russia, China and probably India into using something other than the dollar for trade amongst themselves. Great job guys.
This is an potentially large geopolitical outcome of current events with negative impacts to the US, and one that probably doesn't get enough attention. Weaponizing our financial system will push people away from it, at a time when the US has recklessly increased the money supply, and seems uninterested in adjusting interest rates significantly enough to combat inflation.
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That's not Putin's decision to make. Ukraine is a sovereign country. He tried a puppet government, and it got ousted by our puppet government, which in turn was ousted by the current government. They can decide if they want to be closer to the west or not, and do in large part to Russia's stance as shitty neighbor they have decided they'd like to be closer to the rest of Europe.
Putin making demands he has no right to make, then being aggressive when those demands are not met, then starting a war when those demands are pushed back against actively is how we got here. Neither the Ukraine nor the rest of Europe are under any obligation to cater to Russia's insecurities, or more truthfully: Russia's energy export ambitions...
I didn't say it was right or moral. I am just stating what the reality on the ground has been all along.
Putin pretty much said if you want Russia to use the military option then start bringing Ukraine into the EU and NATO. To him the wests actions aren't the benevolent spread of freedom but an act of aggression that weakens Russia's national security on several levels if allowed.
It appears we decided to call his bluff.
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I didn't say it was right or moral. I am just stating what the reality on the ground has been all along.
Putin pretty much said if you want Russia to use the military option then start bringing Ukraine into the EU and NATO. To him the wests actions aren't the benevolent spread of freedom but an act of aggression that weakens Russia's security on several levels if allowed.
It appears we decided to call his bluff.
That is sort of my thought at present, but it is just hindsight now. If there had been coherent leadership in place, the Ukraine could probably have figured out some way to be independent and neutral. With all the corruption there and external interests pushing things, that didn't happen.
I don't know if the "interests in the West" are necessarily US interests. I figure it is the same people backing a lot of the elitists here.
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It also remains to be seen if Ukraine is lost. A week ago I'd say they were, but that's the thing about war, it doesn't always turn out as predicted.
I tend to think that the west should continue giving Ukraine all the explody toys it can use, and should continue, or do more, in isolating the Russian government from money and influence over Europe. There is a real risk that might nudge Russia into a bigger war of desperation, much the way the oil embargo did to Japan, but if they're that close to going all in, I suspect it's just a matter of time until they do it anyway.
If you want war with Russia there was hardly a better policy than the one we've implemented and followed for at least the last decade.
I know some scoffed at my saying the "globalists" wanted this war with Russia but I still think that is a possibility.
Maybe taking out Russia is part of the great reset.
Or maybe, dethroning the dollar by setting up the Russia/China/India system is the play.
We're all just fumbling in the dark here in actuality, there are wheels within wheels going on and we aren't in the "need to know" category or part of the big club.
My default is NO on military actions and wars. If I'm not considered in the need to know and there isn't a clear and present national security concern then the answer is no.
Somebodies interests are being pursued and it ain't ours.
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If you want war with Russia there was hardly a better policy than the one we've implemented and followed for at least the last decade.
I know some scoffed at my saying the "globalists" wanted this war with Russia but I still think that is a possibility.
Maybe taking out Russia is part of the great reset.
Or maybe, dethroning the dollar by setting up the Russia/China/India system is the play.
We're all just fumbling in the dark here in actuality, there are wheels within wheels going on and we aren't in the "need to know" category or part of the big club.
My default is NO on military actions and wars. If I'm not considered in the need to know and there isn't a clear and present national security concern then the answer is no.
Somebodies interests are being pursued and it ain't ours.
It would be nice to know what's actually going on behind the scenes sometimes.
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Since watching the Ukraine invasion I have been fascinated at the ineffectiveness of Russia's conventional military, however that makes me worry more about them feeling like they need to resort to their nuclear capability. A nuclear exchange terrifies me.
I have no desire to get our nation involved in another shooting war with anyone, but much less someone with the capacity to glass American cities at will.
I'd love for Ukraine to win, and I'm all for doing whatever we can to help short of sending US troops or giving pretext to expanding the war.
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I see us getting pulled in via an attack on a NATO county like Poland. Other than that, support from a distance with weapons and ammo.
Question is, when does Putin go all in and claim the US is intervening via weapons and ammo…and start hitting those along the Ukraine borders or a cyber attack.
A cyber attack may likely bring our economy to a standstill and cause a bunch of chaos
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I don't see this invasion as a threat to the US, as sad and distasteful as it is. It's not a genocide/extermination event; we don't have Jews in gas chambers or racial concentration camps or anything like that. It's a territorial annexation with the intent of gaining economic control/leverage. The market it impacts is Europe, not the US.
The prices at the gas pumps argue otherwise.
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The prices at the gas pumps argue otherwise.
One could argue the US did that to itself.
Gas has been spiraling upwards ever since Biden got in office, as a byproduct of domestic policy. Add to that a US embargo on Russian petroleum imports, which I believe accounts for around 3% of total US petroleum imports, and that will create far more than a 3% jump in price at the pump.
Part of why the world is likely to see a brief flirtation with $200 a barrel oil is because everyone wants to embargo Russian oil, and they're jockeying to redirect their supply chains with the least interruption.
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An aside:
There's a stickied thread at the top of the politics section, regarding nicknames. Does this apply to "Brandon" as well? I would assume so but I'm pretty sure I've seen it here used casually, not sure if that one is somehow okay since the MSM more or less created it themselves.
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An aside:
There's a stickied thread at the top of the politics section, regarding nicknames. Does this apply to "Brandon" as well? I would assume so but I'm pretty sure I've seen it here used casually, not sure if that one is somehow okay since the MSM more or less created it themselves.
Rule doesn't apply when the target thinks that is their name :P
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An aside:
There's a stickied thread at the top of the politics section, regarding nicknames. Does this apply to "Brandon" as well? I would assume so but I'm pretty sure I've seen it here used casually, not sure if that one is somehow okay since the MSM more or less created it themselves.
That's a good question... I can really see both sides of the argument. I've raised the question with the moderators.
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It’s the nicest thing we can call him.
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One could argue the US did that to itself.
Gas has been spiraling upwards ever since Biden got in office, as a byproduct of domestic policy. Add to that a US embargo on Russian petroleum imports, which I believe accounts for around 3% of total US petroleum imports, and that will create far more than a 3% jump in price at the pump.
Part of why the world is likely to see a brief flirtation with $200 a barrel oil is because everyone wants to embargo Russian oil, and they're jockeying to redirect their supply chains with the least interruption.
Environmental activists have been arguing that we should let the price of gas go sky high for a long time to make alternatives more attractive. Yes, I think the US has control of our own oil costs if we choose to take control over it.
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Well, I never expected NYC artists to be warmongers. New one on me.
https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2022/03/07/new-york-based-artists-litter-museum-with-paper-planes-to-call-for-a-no-fly-zone-over-ukraine/
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Environmental activists have been arguing that we should let the price of gas go sky high for a long time to make alternatives more attractive. Yes, I think the US has control of our own oil costs if we choose to take control over it.
It appears we choose not to:
https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/transportation-secretary-pete-buttigieg-says-electric-transportation-cost-savings-americans
It seems to me that the administration is in full "never let a crisis go to waste" mode. This is their big chance to send billions into EV and public transport while blaming the ruskies for the high gas prices these policies will continue to cause long after this conflict is over.
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Electric vehicles won't be popular until they are at entry-level pricing, instead of virtue-signaling pricing.
The first company that can produce a sub $10k electric "city car" is gonna make some bank.
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Electric vehicles won't be popular until they are at entry-level pricing, instead of virtue-signaling pricing.
The first company that can produce a sub $10k electric "city car" is gonna make some bank.
There are no sub $10k ICE vehicles. I wouldn't hold your breath for an EV.
The cheaper EV's are high 20's-low 30s. Not entry level, but certainly low-mid level pricing for a new car.
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The cheaper EV's are high 20's-low 30s. Not entry level, but certainly low-mid level pricing for a new car.
What's out there in that price range?
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It appears we choose not to:
https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/transportation-secretary-pete-buttigieg-says-electric-transportation-cost-savings-americans
It seems to me that the administration is in full "never let a crisis go to waste" mode. This is their big chance to send billions into EV and public transport while blaming the ruskies for the high gas prices these policies will continue to cause long after this conflict is over.
I'm at "fedpoast the *expletive deleted*it out of this" and resisting valiantly.
*expletive deleted*ck that and *expletive deleted*ck him.
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What's out there in that price range?
Nissan Leaf, Chevy Bolt, Mini SE, Mazda MX-30, and I'm pretty sure one of the Hyandai Ioniq's is under 35k.
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Iran nuclear deal possible soon, Russia's contribution constructive -Iranian spokesperson
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/iran-nuclear-deal-possible-shortly-if-us-accepts-tehrans-points-iranian-2022-03-07/
Don't worry, reviving the Iran Nuclear Deal will save us all.
Maybe this belongs in the "World has Gone Mad" thread.
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Iran nuclear deal possible soon, Russia's contribution constructive -Iranian spokesperson
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/iran-nuclear-deal-possible-shortly-if-us-accepts-tehrans-points-iranian-2022-03-07/
Don't worry, reviving the Iran Nuclear Deal will save us all.
Maybe this belongs in the "World has Gone Mad" thread.
I'm this close to shaving my mustache, keeping the beard and joining the bloody Amish. They seem to have their *expletive deleted*it together.
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Saw the Tucker Carlson show tonight. Man, his monologue was on point. Strange that FOX keeps him around. He is practically on the dissident right these days.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MW6gp0aGY0
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Stop sending Lego toys to the Russkies?
https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/companies/arid-40823622.html
That'll show 'em.
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Regarding EV prices, I found this chart. It's from September 2021, so I expect many of these (like gas vehicles) are probably a good 15% higher by now.
https://insideevs.com/news/534027/electric-car-prices-us-20210918/
Edit: Note that the chart includes tax credits. The tax credits are listed below the chart, so that you can see the real cost of the vehicles without a credit.
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From roughly the same time period:
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/average-new-car-costs-price-increase/
The Average price of a new car was $45,000. There are several EV's below that number.
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It appears that we'll be cutting off Russian oil exports today. Things should get sporty at the pumps. I think I'll fill up the truck and the gas cans for the small motors today. =)
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/03/08/leadership-biden-admin-reportedly-set-to-announce-ban-on-russian-oil-which-will-stick-it-to-putin-by-sending-us-gas-prices-skyrocketing/
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It appears that we'll be cutting off Russian oil exports today. Things should get sporty at the pumps. I think I'll fill up the truck and the gas cans for the small motors today. =)
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/03/08/leadership-biden-admin-reportedly-set-to-announce-ban-on-russian-oil-which-will-stick-it-to-putin-by-sending-us-gas-prices-skyrocketing/
It's about 3% of total US petroleum imports.
Yeah, it'll create a bump in fuel costs to discourage weekend road trips for some. But it's not like a Saudi embargo or something like that.
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It's about 3% of total US petroleum imports.
Yeah, it'll create a bump in fuel costs to discourage weekend road trips for some. But it's not like a Saudi embargo or something like that.
What should happen and what will happen can be two very different things.
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What should happen and what will happen can be two very different things.
Yup. This will be another "crisis not going to waste", which will see more speeches by the admin on immediately switching to alternative energy, along with making Iran and Venezuela our good, dear friends, with oil and nuke deals and whatnot. I suspect the Ruskie embargo will now be a major talking point for pushing through a new Iran deal.
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So letting people drill for oil at their own expense is economically bad, but propping up EV with tax dollars is good.
Biden says loosening environmental regs & pulling back on clean energy investment "will not lower energy prices for families." But subsidizing "electric vehicles powered by clean energy," he says "that will help."
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/03/08/joe-biden-gaslights-on-gas-prices-claims-its-simply-not-true-that-his-admin-is-stifling-us-energy-production-and-promptly-heads-for-the-hills-videos/
To reiterate my position on EV, I think the tech is great, and have even investigated it for myself. I'm not sure propping up the companies and giving consumers thousands of tax dollars to buy one is a fair solution. I note on that chart that I posted, the average credit is $7500. I also note that tax credits for Teslas don't exist, but there are plenty for Government Motors.
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US electrical production is 60% fossil fuels. Why does he think EVs are "powered by clean energy"?
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US electrical production is 60% fossil fuels. Why does he think EVs are "powered by clean energy"?
I shake my head whenever I see an EV with a "Zero Emissions" sticker for that very reason.
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Right? And I LIKE EV's. I'd have one except I don't want one of the cheap ones.
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I shake my head whenever I see an EV with a "Zero Emissions" sticker for that very reason.
I shake my head every time I read the plaque on my Subaru that says "Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle"!
So, my Subaru.... emits.
Whomever came up with that wording should be hooked up to the ignition discharge pack to see if they emit.
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McDonald's is shutting down its Russia locations.
Way to take a positive stand, MickeyD's... waited until you supply chain dried up and you couldn't keep the stores open any longer is my guess... ;/
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McDonald's is shutting down its Russia locations.
Way to take a positive stand, MickeyD's... waited until you supply chain dried up and you couldn't keep the stores open any longer is my guess... ;/
People were calling for a boycott of McDs and Coke
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McDonald's is shutting down its Russia locations.
Way to take a positive stand, MickeyD's... waited until you supply chain dried up and you couldn't keep the stores open any longer is my guess... ;/
In a month everyone in Russia will have lost 20lb and be in over all better health
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Right? And I LIKE EV's. I'd have one except I don't want one of the cheap ones.
I'd consider an EV once my corolla bites it, but I'm really at the place where I prefer to buy used cars, in the 5-10k bracket for cash. I wonder what the used EV market will look like in another 5-10 years?
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I wonder what the used EV market will look like in another 5-10 years?
The way things are going maybe $150,000-$200,000 at the low end, and a $50 loaf of bread?
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The way things are going maybe $150,000-$200,000 at the low end, and a $50 loaf of bread?
=D =D
:'(
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And all restaurants will be Taco Bell
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I'd consider an EV once my corolla bites it, but I'm really at the place where I prefer to buy used cars, in the 5-10k bracket for cash. I wonder what the used EV market will look like in another 5-10 years?
I don't foresee anything good out of the used EV market.
An ICE engine can run for 10 years just fine and maybe need some seals replaced. Coolant pump, maybe the air conditioner needs servicing, radiator. Stuff like that.
The battery pack is more than half the value of the total car, and it's not going to last 10 years. Replacing it is a 5-figure commitment. Then the thing still needs air conditioner equipment just like a regular car. The drive motors are far less expensive than an ICE engine, but they're not immune to fatigue or depolarization of their magnets or electrolytic decay of their capacitors.
Buying a used EV is a near guarantee of a steep repair bill. Buying a used ICE vehicle is not, if you have a discriminating eye and decent vehicle knowledge.
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The way things are going maybe $150,000-$200,000 at the low end, and a $50 loaf of bread?
I just happened to check F150 prices a couple of days ago. I recall posting during early covid that the local dealer offered me I think $34K for my 2016 F150 XLT, with the identical 2021 F150 (except the 2021 was 4WD) going for $36K, which would have put me in a brand new truck for probably around $3500.
The current price for the 2022 version of mine? $52K.
Cars are getting to be like houses. You've got to get yourself into one and hope yours holds its value so you can get another one down the road. I'm having a hard time accepting that I'll have to pay over $50K for my next new ride. Kinda like I wouldn't buy my current home at today's price.
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Putin: Retreat! Retreat!
Starbucks to pause operations in Russia
Starbucks has said it will pause all business activity in Russia, including shipments and cafe operations.
This follows McDonald's decision to also temporarily close all restaurants and pause operations in Russia.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60657155
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Subaru partial zero emissions always gets me too. They divided zero!
I have been trying to listen to conservative talk radio as well as npr. All the gloom and doom that hannity can muster. Lemme tell you, for every AOC there are three “conservatives” that are way dumber. They chase every boogie man. With this one every show is drill more, Biden is an idiot, EVs lol ol!
Not once do I hear nuclear. If there was actually any leaders in the stupid party they would be out there pushing a put a man on the moon in this decade level race to nuclear. Pick spots on federal installations, do the permits per existing rules, declare a national emergency to halt the lawfare activists and give the power to the grid for free. Last time we wanted a world war we flooded a good bit of eastern Tennessee to get the power to do it.
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Not once do I hear nuclear. If there was actually any leaders in the stupid party they would be out there pushing a put a man on the moon in this decade level race to nuclear. Pick spots on federal installations, do the permits per existing rules, declare a national emergency to halt the lawfare activists and give the power to the grid for free. Last time we wanted a world war we flooded a good bit of eastern Tennessee to get the power to do it.
Right? I have trouble taking anyone seriously about environmentalism, climate change, or energy policy if the opening statements don't contain a push for nuclear. We fixed how to get cheap, clean energy half a century ago, we're just not doing it.
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Right? I have trouble taking anyone seriously about environmentalism, climate change, or energy policy if the opening statements don't contain a push for nuclear. We fixed how to get cheap, clean energy half a century ago, we're just not doing it.
There is a lot of incoherency in the way things are run.
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There is a lot of incoherency in the way things are run.
The energy sector has a lot of money, and can buy a lot of policy.
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I'm always trying to find visualizations of footprints for nuclear, solar, and wind for the same output. I haven't found any, but plenty of text descriptions, such as:
Wind farms require up to 360 times as much land area to produce the same amount of electricity as a nuclear energy facility, a Nuclear Energy Institute analysis has found. Solar photovoltaic (PV) facilities require up to 75 times the land area.
For 1000 megawatts:
Nuclear = 1.3 sq mi
Solar = 45-75 sq mi
Wind = 260-360 sq mi
Solar and wind vary due to available sunlight and wind at various locations. I was actually surprised at solar - I would have thought it would be much closer to wind. Nevertheless, the footprints are huge, and certainly destroy a lot more habitat than a nuke plant.
https://www.nei.org/news/2015/land-needs-for-wind-solar-dwarf-nuclear-plants
This also goes back to my griping that solar should not be a centralized source for power distribution, but rather a distributed power source for individuals or communities. Roofs already have a footprint that you can stick panels on top of where you can locally create and store your power, rather than getting it from a ginormous solar farm somewhere that requires all kinds of distribution infrastructure.
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Poland punts, gives the ball to the USA and Germany.
"The authorities of the Republic of Poland, after consultations between the President and the Government, are ready to deploy – immediately and free of charge – all their MIG-29 jets to the Ramstein Air Base and place them at the disposal of the Government of the United States of America."
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/poland-announces-all-its-mig-29-jets-will-be-transferred-us-send-ukraine
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Here's a couple Ben:
Wind vs nuclear (https://www.ans.org/news/article-1462/wind-power-and-nuclear-power/)
Wind and solar vs Nuclear (http://www.cfact.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Infographic-nuclear-solar-wind-footprints-628x353.jpg)
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Here's a couple Ben:
Wind vs nuclear (https://www.ans.org/news/article-1462/wind-power-and-nuclear-power/)
Wind and solar vs Nuclear (http://www.cfact.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Infographic-nuclear-solar-wind-footprints-628x353.jpg)
Thanks!
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The energy sector has a lot of money, and can buy a lot of policy.
Politics makes for strange bedfellows.
Bootleggers and Baptists, right?
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https://www.theepochtimes.com/poland-offer-to-send-fighter-jets-is-not-tenable-pentagon_4325392.html?
The Pentagon said late on March 8 that Poland’s offer to send fighter jets is not tenable, after Poland’s Foreign Ministry announced it would deploy MiG-29 jets to the U.S. Air Force’s Ramstein Air Base in Germany “and place them at the disposal of the Government of the United States of America.”
The deployment of the 28 MiG-29s would be immediate and free of charge, the Foreign Ministry added. “At the same time, Poland requests the United States to provide us with used aircraft with corresponding operational capabilities,” it said in a statement.
The Polish government also called on other NATO member nations that own MiG-29 planes to transfer their planes to the United States.
In a statement late on March 8, Pentagon press secretary John F. Kirby said: “The prospect of fighter jets ‘at the disposal of the Government of the United States of America’ departing from a U.S./NATO base in Germany to fly into airspace that is contested with Russia over Ukraine raises serious concerns for the entire NATO alliance.
“It is simply not clear to us that there is a substantive rationale for it. We will continue to consult with Poland and our other NATO allies about this issue and the difficult logistical challenges it presents, but we do not believe Poland’s proposal is a tenable one,” he said.
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Poland punts, gives the ball to the USA and Germany.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/poland-announces-all-its-mig-29-jets-will-be-transferred-us-send-ukraine
And the U.S. punts -- or something.
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-europe-poland-nato-5724ff192113703d829024dc4410664e
I don't understand why Poland would have to deliver the planes to the U.S. base in Germany. Poland has about a 200-mile border shared directly with Ukraine. Poland could just fly the planes directly across the border to Ukraine -- or allow Ukrainian pilots to come to Poland to pick them up.
The sticky wicket (I suspect) is really that the U.S. doesn't want to be seen providing replacement aircraft to Poland. But there must be some international arms dealer who can arrange for Poland to buy some used American warplanes at the right price, and have them delivered without the U.S. leaving visible fingerprints on the deal.
I don't get it.
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And the U.S. punts -- or something.
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-europe-poland-nato-5724ff192113703d829024dc4410664e
I don't understand why Poland would have to deliver the planes to the U.S. base in Germany. Poland has about a 200-mile border shared directly with Ukraine. Poland could just fly the planes directly across the border to Ukraine -- or allow Ukrainian pilots to come to Poland to pick them up.
There's this war thing going on in Ukraine. Russia has air superiority. If Polish pilots fly aircraft into Ukraine, Russian pilots may intercept them and engage them. If Russians don't intercept in the air, they may target the air field with artillery or missiles while the planes are down.
The trick is getting the aircraft into Ukrainian hands somewhere neutral, and out of reach of Russia, which is hard to do.
Aside from that, the Mig-29 isn't much of a match for current Russian fighter craft. Two dozen Mig-29's won't make a dent in Russia's front. MANPADs and Javelins, on the other hand, are far more effective and easier to get into the right hands.
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Russia said they would consider the movement of those jets into the war theater an act of war.
Poland ropes in both Germany and the USA by suggesting they deliver the jets to Germany for the USA to do whatever they will. I don't think that would get Poland off the hook with Russia but it does relieve them from being the country that dragged NATO into war. They put that hot potato where it belongs, with the USA.
You guys do realize nobody wants war with Russia except the lunatics in the Biden administration?
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2022/03/08/blinken-and-biden-fold-pentagon-rejects-poland-offer-for-united-states-to-start-world-war-iii/#more-229503
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You guys do realize nobody wants war with Russia except the lunatics in the Biden administration?
Seeing a lot of neocons also wanting it, on bookfeces.
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Russia said they would consider the movement of those jets into the war theater an act of war.
They keep saying that about things. And yet, when those things happen, crickets. Hyperbole.
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They keep saying that about things. And yet, when those things happen, crickets. Hyperbole.
Yeah, it's hyperbole ... until it isn't.
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Yeah, it's hyperbole ... until it isn't.
Hazard of being the boy who cried wolf.
Also, letting a country just do whatever it wants if it makes threats doesn't end well either.
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Hazard of being the boy who cried wolf.
Also, letting a country just do whatever it wants if it makes threats doesn't end well either.
That's what I see as one of Russia's desperate outs. They pick a western ally that is non nuclear and make a city glow, threaten to make the whole world glow if there is a response.
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Seeing a lot of neocons also wanting it, on bookfeces.
I stand corrected, you are absolutely correct. The neocons are full speed ahead and onboard with the Biden admin. on this issue.
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I stand corrected, you are absolutely correct. The neocons are full speed ahead and onboard with the Biden admin. on this issue.
It seems that 75% of the country wants us to do stuff that vastly increases the probability of war. I mean, I posted that NYC artists of all people were pushing for things they don't understand. It's almost like how so many people jumped on BLM and supported antifa because it was a popular thing to do that you could talk about at wine and cheese parties, but who were completely insulated from the effects of what they supported.
I notice that a lot of US entities, across the political spectrum, are full on into cancel culture against Russia. Fast food, hotel, and other businesses "boycotting" Russia as an example. I'm not sure that does anything but get the Russian people - especially those who were against Putin's plans - turned into if not Putin supporters, certainly Russia supporters.
This cancel culture stuff does little to hurt the Russian government. It certainly hits Russian citizens, but probably not as much as these entities think it does. They seem to think it will upset Russians the same as it would Americans, who freak out if they can't get on the internet for 20 minutes, or can't get a pizza delivered. Last year I got into watching these Youtube videos on small town Russian life, made by very amateur youtubers just wanting to show everyday life. While certainly they have modern conveniences, they also do 1920s type stuff like heat their homes with wood. I don't think they are going to crumble in tears if they can't get the Dominoes. They might be inclined to think the US sucks though, even though beforehand, from the videos I've seen, many of them thought of the US as cool.
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The pivot from Covid-19 herstaria to Russia Russia Russia warmongering was instantaneous and flawlessly executed.
The dirt people NPC's are fully under the control of TPTB cloud people. Welcome to the machine.
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The pivot from Covid-19 herstaria to Russia Russia Russia warmongering was instantaneous and flawlessly executed.
The dirt people NPC's are fully under the control of TPTB cloud people.
Normal news cycle. The media got bored with COVID a while back but had nothing else to jump on other than stuff that made Biden look bad and they sure as heck wasn't going to do that. Russia/Ukraine gave them something to jump on than doesn't hurt Biden and the dems in their opinion in a long time.
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Normal news cycle. The media got bored with COVID a while back but had nothing else to jump on other than stuff that made Biden look bad and they sure as heck wasn't going to do that. Russia/Ukraine gave them something to jump on than doesn't hurt Biden and the dems in their opinion.
The normal news cycle is sophisticated conditioning and regime propaganda. It's not journalism.
You can wake up if you want. Now is a good time to reflect on truth vs psyops. Don't believe liars.
For some reason the regime needs our consent to become NPC's (non-player characters ie programmed drones) , it has to be a willing suspension of disbelief, self delusion, don't do that.
Rule of thumb, everything the media and government says is to be doubted and questioned.
They are no more trustworthy than the CCP or Kremlin. You know this of course, who doesn't?
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The normal news cycle is sophisticated conditioning and regime propaganda. It's not journalism.
You can wake up if you want. Now is a good time to reflect on truth vs psyops. Don't believe liars.
huh?
Kind of what I said just without all the extra baggage
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huh?
Kind of what I said just without all the extra baggage
That's not how I read what you wrote. It's good you know they are always lying.
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I think you may want to unwind a little, I think you may be automatically assuming any reply is a counter argument to yours. Relax a little.
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I think you may want to unwind a little, I think you may be automatically assuming any reply is a counter argument to yours. Relax a little.
The dude abides =D