Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Balog on June 01, 2015, 02:44:13 AM
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http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/148353-Embrace-The-Truth-Catastrophic-Gun-Failure
A few posts down the thread the judgment is attached. TLDR, T/C Encore in .300 Win Mag appears to have developed headspace issues, went off like a .40 S&W Glock, and took the guy's eye out. A number of reports of this appear to have been noted, and T/C does not appear to have addressed the issues. On the other hand, it was a reload and the dude appears to have bad reloading practices.
Haven't read it all yet, but looks interesting.
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That same guy posted that same thread on every gun board on the net, it seems.
I was in the THR version until it went bad and got locked. It sucks that he got hurt and lost an eye but it really seems like we aren't getting the whole story.
His claim is that it got excessive headspace, and that let gas hit and depress the locking plunger, which caused the gun to open early, break the stock, and mess him up.
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It's still open on TFL.
I think he's FOS. I think his overload resulted in excessive recoil, and smashing his face with the scope, causing him to drop the rifle, breaking it. I've never heard of an encore "blowing up" in the manner of which he claims, nor have I heard of excessive headspace causing any problems other than accuracy ones.
Chris
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It's still open on TFL.
I think he's FOS. I think his overload resulted in excessive recoil, and smashing his face with the scope, causing him to drop the rifle, breaking it. I've never heard of an encore "blowing up" in the manner of which he claims, nor have I heard of excessive headspace causing any problems other than accuracy ones.
Chris
The photos didn't show it blown up. It was odd that he couldn't squarely explain what blew up in any of the threads.
Funny though - I read the first line and thought "let me guess - hand loads."
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The photos didn't show it blown up. It was odd that he couldn't squarely explain what blew up in any of the threads.
Exactly my point. Also, the Encore isn't an overly strong action (strong, but not *that* strong) and his admitted handload was 2-3 grains over book, on a cartridge already at the edge of what the Encore can reasonably handle.
Chris
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Oh, FWIW, I have an Encore. Until recently, I had a 300wm barrel and the exact same stock as the Plaintiff.
I shot over 100rnds of factory ammo and about as many handloads (not over book though). I sold my barrel because the recoil was obnoxious, but at no point did I have technical issues with it.
I replaced the plastic stock with a laminated thumbhole primarily for aesthetics, but also to provide more recoil mitigation (weight and better grip).
Chris
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I don't have an encore. But in running this guys story around the 'net I found some evidence that they can, and do, open early some times. The description makes it sound more annoying than catastrophic. I'll see if I can hunt up the page with the tech details of that happening, and maybe someone that has held one of these guns can comment.
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Dogmush, that has been my reading of the unlocking issue as well. My Contender did that a time or two and it never caused any problems.
On one board, he was alleging that the gas leakage traveled down into the stock somehow, bursting it. I don't see how that would happen even if the action remained locked because there isn't a tight path through the action and into the stock. There are plenty of places for leakage to occur, reducing the pressure. Assuming that is what happened...
There are several forums dedicated to the Encore (Greybeard Outdoors has a subforum, Specialty Pistols, Encore Classifieds, various other subforums around the net). If this was a known problem, we would have heard of it by now. One guy 10 years ago does not make for a design flaw.
Chris
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This is the article I read (http://www.lasc.us/BellmFiresFliesOpen.htm) but without any familiarity with the platform I don't know how accurate it is. Seems more plausable then a design defect that can't be described.
If I had to guess, he had a hot load in an already hot cartridge. When he fired it the action unlocked (see link) and the drastic change in recoil charectoristics (Instead of straight back, rotational around the hinge) caused him to eat a scope, maybe take some escapeing gas to the face and drop the rifle. Somewhere in here the stock broke.
But the guy isn't being very forthcoming with details, in threads where he claims to be trying to help others escape his fate. Just a basic understanding of how metalic cartridges work makes me wonder about gas playing havoc in the breech without a case rupture. Which he hasn't mentioned.
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I am going to go with-
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fp311%2Fanundrr%2Fhum-bullshit-1024x768-wallpaper-861314_zpso4qtlddv.jpg&hash=389b17694aab15bb667e1f656b4f4e2de8883c82) (http://s131.photobucket.com/user/anundrr/media/hum-bullshit-1024x768-wallpaper-861314_zpso4qtlddv.jpg.html)
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This is the article I read (http://www.lasc.us/BellmFiresFliesOpen.htm) but without any familiarity with the platform I don't know how accurate it is. Seems more plausable then a design defect that can't be described.
I've had my Encore torn down to components, so I'm very familiar with the mechanism and assembly described in the article. I also did the felt tip pen test with my Contender (Misremembered it unlocking, that was an old single shot shotgun). Mike Bellm is one of the leading experts on TC break-action guns.
If I had to guess, he had a hot load in an already hot cartridge. When he fired it the action unlocked (see link) and the drastic change in recoil charectoristics (Instead of straight back, rotational around the hinge) caused him to eat a scope, maybe take some escapeing gas to the face and drop the rifle. Somewhere in here the stock broke.
Possibly. More plausible than his story.
But the guy isn't being very forthcoming with details, in threads where he claims to be trying to help others escape his fate. Just a basic understanding of how metalic cartridges work makes me wonder about gas playing havoc in the breech without a case rupture. Which he hasn't mentioned.
Guy.Is.FOS. He got lucky with the jury.
Chris
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This sounds like another spilling coffee on our crotch at McDonald's lawsuit.
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This sounds like another spilling coffee on our crotch at McDonald's lawsuit.
Actually, that one ended up having some validity. It got misrepresented in the media.
Chris
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This sounds like another spilling coffee on our crotch at McDonald's lawsuit.
At least with coffee cooch they had a point that the coffee way hotter than normal which led to scalding far in excess of a more normal coffee, or any other beverage meant to be consumed for the matter, could have caused. Which was factually accurate.
This case is more akin to the woman who ran her mouth saying she found a finger in the Wendy's chili. Something people might actually find remotely plausible, but ultimately bullshit.
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Both factory ammo or reloads....last shot was with a reload.
I saw this quote from the poster on that link. It is always that last shot isn't it? :laugh:
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and his admitted handload was 2-3 grains over book, on a cartridge already at the edge of what the Encore can reasonably handle.
Guy.Is.FOS. He got lucky with the jury.
Handloading over published specs? :facepalm: Very lucky with the jury.
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Handloading over published specs? :facepalm: Very lucky with the jury.
Yeah, that.
No reason to hotrod cartridges, that goes quadruple times when the hotrodding isn't being done in a modern bolt action.
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This is the article I read (http://www.lasc.us/BellmFiresFliesOpen.htm) but without any familiarity with the platform I don't know how accurate it is. Seems more plausable then a design defect that can't be described.
If I had to guess, he had a hot load in an already hot cartridge. When he fired it the action unlocked (see link) and the drastic change in recoil charectoristics (Instead of straight back, rotational around the hinge) caused him to eat a scope, maybe take some escapeing gas to the face and drop the rifle. Somewhere in here the stock broke.
But the guy isn't being very forthcoming with details, in threads where he claims to be trying to help others escape his fate. Just a basic understanding of how metalic cartridges work makes me wonder about gas playing havoc in the breech without a case rupture. Which he hasn't mentioned.
That's my take - there clearly appear to be issues with the gun, but how those factored into the case is impossible to tell. I don't understand why the guy can't just share a bit of detail.
Warnings about the relative risk of different designs could be useful. The manual saying "warning - if a case lets go in this type of action the gas is pointed at your eye rather than out the side" for example.
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Actually, that one ended up having some validity. It got misrepresented in the media.
And McDonalds is still doing it. I don't drink coffee, but I do drink tea. The water McDonald's serves with a tea bag can't be touched for at least ten or fifteen minutes after purchase.
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That's my take - there clearly appear to be issues with the gun, but how those factored into the case is impossible to tell. I don't understand why the guy can't just share a bit of detail.
Warnings about the relative risk of different designs could be useful. The manual saying "warning - if a case lets go in this type of action the gas is pointed at your eye rather than out the side" for example.
They could put the 'industrial accident' style stickers on the guns, like they do on lawnmowers, fork lifts, etc... >:D
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I haven't had a chance to look at the lawsuit links. Do the court documents spell out any details of what happened?
Also, was this one of those % liability cases?
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What the OP/Plaintiff claims happened doesn't make sense and he won't provide more detail.
Yes, % liability. Also, it seems TC is appealing or having it re-tried or some such.
Chris
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Yep, the OP isn't forthcoming with many answers. The thread at TFL was closed down yesterday, in large part because people were asking serious questions about the incident and the OP wasn't providing answers.
I didn't really keep up with the thread, because I don't have an Encore and don't have much interest in them, but it was rather interesting when someone pointed out that the OP's handloads were likely significantly over pressure for the cartridge.
The more I see of it, the more I'm thinking that he won the jury lottery.
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Yup. I don't get why he had to hotrod it like that. It's not like the 300wm is a slouch velocity-wise.
Chris
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Yup. I don't get why he had to hotrod it like that. It's not like the 300wm is a slouch velocity-wise.
Chris
"Them man yoo fackshers under rate them caaatrijis. I know whut them enjineers wuz up to and this iz whut it awter do."
Some people just have to play engineer. That's fine if you have a reasonable understanding of the subject matter. If you don't, well, sometimes the subject matter bites back.
Brad
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"Them man yoo fackshers under rate them caaatrijis. I know whut them enjineers wuz up to and this iz whut it awter do."
Some people just have to play engineer. That's fine if you have a reasonable understanding of the subject matter. If you don't, well, sometimes the subject matter bites back.
Brad
Truth be told, they frequently do, but mainly in older cartridges that started out in weaker actions (45-70, 6.5x55, etc). More modern cartridges (such as the 300wm), developed upon the same platforms we have today, suffer no such downgrades.
You have to know the history of the cartridge you're working with, the platform it'll be fired from, and at what gun strength-level the reloading manual is assuming. My manuals have multiple sections for older cartridges (original and various flavors of modern).
Chris
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Yep, the OP isn't forthcoming with many answers. The thread at TFL was closed down yesterday, in large part because people were asking serious questions about the incident and the OP wasn't providing answers.
I didn't really keep up with the thread, because I don't have an Encore and don't have much interest in them, but it was rather interesting when someone pointed out that the OP's handloads were likely significantly over pressure for the cartridge.
The more I see of it, the more I'm thinking that he won the jury lottery.
Maybe that and Encore did not have a very good speaker testifying on the technical issues.
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I caught Dad setting up to load 45 Colt from the "Ruger Blackhawk/Redhawk Only" section. The only thing he has chambered in 45 Colt is a Peacemaker clone. Yikes.
Dad knows how critical it is to be careful with powder measuring and such. Unfortunately small details make him crazy so he also has a habit of not paying close attention to incidentals. He's also a form-over-function type. Never mind double-checking settings, confirming measurements, or reading notes for warnings and specs. As long as it looks good it fine. It never occurred to him to read beyond the cartridge name and the powder weight for his bullet selection. Not even the BOLD RED DISCLAIMER at the top of the page.
It's gotten him in a bind on many occasions. We've learned through experience not to let him navigate on family trips unless we have a lot of extra time. Hand him a map and he'll know where we are and where we want to be, but all those little squiggly bits in between might as well be Hamlet in hieroglyphics. We have discovered lots of new out-of-the way places, though.
Brad
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but all those little squiggly bits in between might as well be Hamlet in hieroglyphics.
Brad
There be poetry!
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When I got my .45 Long a few years ago I wrote NO! on a couple of sticky notes and pasted them to the T/C and Ruger only pages in my loading manuals just so I wouldn't make a huge mistake and damage a gun I'd spend a decade looking for.