What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?

[roo_ster]

I wondered about this when I read the law.  Does this mean the Feds can pull the rug out from under the AZ law by declining to render any opinion on the legal status of the people the AZ popo bring in?

IIRC, a Clinton-era law required fed.gov to provide such data when queried by a state.

This law is well-written and AZ is 3/3 WRT other immigration laws vs appeals.  "Well written" in that it mirrors fed law and has MORE restrictions on LEOs than fed law.

[Perd Hapley]

 You can have welfare and open borders if you don't mind plan on running your [enemy's] society into the ground.

You almost described the left-wing platform perfectly.  Tweaked it a bit for ya.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

jfuser
i agree so long as someone rides herd on law enforcement and they don't screw the pooch there it might be a good litmus test

[Nitrogen]

I suspect this strategy is the only real cure for the illegal immigration problem.  Securing the border is good, but so long as there remains strong economic incentive to sneaking through, there will be enterprising people who find a way.

It's absolutely true, you cannot have a welfare state and open borders at the same time.  (Actually, I might modify that a bit.  You can't have open borders, welfare, and a viable economy at the same time.  You can have welfare and open borders if you don't mind running your society into the ground.)

I think the only REAL strategy is to fine any employer $1 million dollars per illegal knowingly hired, and revoke their corporate charter.  The demand would dry up REALLY fast then.

[longeyes]

Yes, except you'd have to extend the employment ban to government jobs...   And educate a lot of white yuppies about America's core principles.

Exploiting cheap labor is only one part of what's going on here.

[MicroBalrog]

Hmm... how about offering illegals something (I ain't sure what) if they roll on their employer and provide information on the smuggling routes?

[red headed stranger]

IIRC, a Clinton-era law required fed.gov to provide such data when queried by a state.

That's correct.  This is one of the beauties of the law.  If the feds stop cooperating, they will be in direct violation of federal law. 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I think the only REAL strategy is to fine any employer $1 million dollars per illegal knowingly hired, and revoke their corporate charter.  The demand would dry up REALLY fast then.

I think it's dangerous for the gov to be able to decide who can hire who.  Hiring the cheapest available labor isn't inherently wrong.

[Leatherneck]

I agree, HTG. Business should be as free of government mandate as we can manage. It's the duty of the federal government to secure our borders. They simply have been unwilling or unable to do so. Not surprising, given the political pressures around the country right now.

TC

[Sindawe]

The immigration law in Arizon is prompting illegal aliens to leave the state.

Sadly, some are going in the WRONG direction, such as this set of two unemployed parents their their brood of 10(!) children.  Instead of going back to their own country, they are coming to Colorado. 

  On a dusty block in Phoenix, 15 years of the Quintana family's possessions are for sale.

Manuela Quintana said that they decided to leave when the Arizona governor signed the new immigration law.

For years, their family thrived with jobs in restaurants and construction, reports CBS News correspondent Kelly Cobiella. Their 10 children were born here and are U.S. citizens. Both she and her husband are undocumented, and currently unemployed.

She said that her biggest fear is being put in jail and having her children taken away from her. Just the thought of moving scares their 12-year-old daughter Graciela.

"I think it's going to be my worst day," Graciela said.

Two years ago, this park was filled with families every weekend. Arizona was home to more than half a million illegal immigrants. Since then, at least 100,000 have left.

Kyle Kester is the Quintana's landlord - he's lost seven tenants in the past week.

"I would say on this block alone we have 20 vacancies at least," Kester said. "It's not just illegal immigrants who are affected by this. I was born in the U.S. and it's hurting me now."

Graciela's best friend fled to California with her family Saturday. She didn't get to say good-bye.

Manuela knows she broke the law when she came here 15 years ago. But she doesn’t see herself as a criminal.

"A criminal is someone who kills," she said in Spanish. "I just want to work."

The family packed up before dawn today and headed north to Colorado. Manuela says she's lost hope in this state. She thinks she'll find it again in another.

Source and video: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/05/03/eveningnews/main6457212.shtml

Just what this state needs, MORE illegal aliens and their progeny.

[sanglant]

Hmm... how about offering illegals something (I ain't sure what) if they roll on their employer and provide information on the smuggling routes?

5lbs of pot, 2 "real"m-16s, and a free trip home with there new toys?

hey that sounds like the start of the 12 days of American Christmas.

[Waitone]

I think it's dangerous for the gov to be able to decide who can hire who.  Hiring the cheapest available labor isn't inherently wrong.

and

Business should be as free of government mandate as we can manage.

No problem with either position as long as the starting point is a level playing field.  Problem is USofA today is anything but a level playing field.  Legal workers (citizens or guests) have a significantly higher breakeven point than do illegal workers.  The higher BE point is in large part courtesy of fed.gov's attempts to create a utopia.  Higher labor rates are no problem as long as there is no ability to substitute lower cost labor.  Enter illegal labor with no compulsion to abide by government enhanced cost structures and the game changes.  By refusing to maintain a level playing field the government defaults to favoring illegal labor if employers receive a pass on violating various laws.  So as good kinda sorta libertarian advocates is it really a consistent position to demand freedom of choice among employers to choose between two potential employees: 1>one who has a significantly reduced personal BE point AND a reduced cost of employment to the employer, or 2>a fully loaded citizen of government's utopia.

Last large company I worked for had a rule of thumb that a fully loaded hourly worker's labor rate was hit with a 45% multiplier while salaried types were hit with a 38% multiplier.  Now compare that to an illegal worker who has no multiplier to his labor rate.

[makattak]

and

No problem with either position as long as the starting point is a level playing field.  Problem is USofA today is anything but a level playing field.  Legal workers (citizens or guests) have a significantly higher breakeven point than do illegal workers.  The higher BE point is in large part courtesy of fed.gov's attempts to create a utopia.  Higher labor rates are no problem as long as there is no ability to substitute lower cost labor.  Enter illegal labor with no compulsion to abide by government enhanced cost structures and the game changes.  By refusing to maintain a level playing field the government defaults to favoring illegal labor if employers receive a pass on violating various laws.  So as good kinda sorta libertarian advocates is it really a consistent position to demand freedom of choice among employers to choose between two potential employees: 1>one who has a significantly reduced personal BE point AND a reduced cost of employment to the employer, or 2>a fully loaded citizen of government's utopia.

Last large company I worked for had a rule of thumb that a fully loaded hourly worker's labor rate was hit with a 45% multiplier while salaried types were hit with a 38% multiplier.  Now compare that to an illegal worker who has no multiplier to his labor rate.

Seems to me your whole second point is:

Business should be as free of government mandate as we can manage.

Just with more specifics about how the government shouldn't be meddling in business.

[Scout26]

Oh that's rich. Only 49 more states to go.

Didn't I hear about Oklahoma doing this about 2-3 years ago ??

Yep, found it.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/02/oklahoma.immigration/index.html

[kgbsquirrel]

I think it's dangerous for the gov to be able to decide who can hire who.  Hiring the cheapest available labor isn't inherently wrong.

So, the fact that their employee had to commit a crime to get into a position of employment, and are continuing to commit a crime in order to maintain that position of employment, and the employer's knowledge and acquiescence of such matters not? We've been talking about getting rid of incentives that cause people to want to enter this country illegally. The employer that will hire them without concern for their legal presence is that incentive. If you refuse to get rid of that primary incentive, then what is the point of the rest of this? If hiring a prison escapee was even cheaper than hiring an illegal alien, would that also be alright? Both of them are someplace that they are not allowed to be, by law.

Didn't I hear about Oklahoma doing this about 2-3 years ago ??

Yep, found it.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/02/oklahoma.immigration/index.html

It'scalled being facetious. Many more states than AZ and OK have passed such laws, as has been noted elsewhere.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

So, the fact that their employee had to commit a crime to get into a position of employment, and are continuing to commit a crime in order to maintain that position of employment, and the employer's knowledge and acquiescence of such matters not? We've been talking about getting rid of incentives that cause people to want to enter this country illegally. The employer that will hire them without concern for their legal presence is that incentive. If you refuse to get rid of that primary incentive, then what is the point of the rest of this? If hiring a prison escapee was even cheaper than hiring an illegal alien, would that also be alright? Both of them are someplace that they are not allowed to be, by law.

First off, it isn't the employers job to enforce the law.  If Person X can do the job, then any employer should be free to consider hiring him.  It should be up to the police to render Person X unable to do the job (i.e. put him in jail or kick him out of the country) if he's illegal.

Second, I think the prime incentive for immigrating illegally is the promise of free goods and services provided on the American taxpayers dime.  This can be anything from free medical care to foodstamps to clean streets to 1st world education for the kids.  Eliminate that and it becomes a lot less appealing to jumpt he border.

Sure, a few folks might still come to here to work and earn a paycheck.  But I don't have any problem with immigrants coming here to earn a paycheck.  I'd prefer they do it through legal channels, and to that end we ought to make sure that there are legal channels and that they work.  But all on its own, I don't care if any of my self-supporting neighbors are illegal immigrants, legal immigrants, or natives.

It's true that there are more barriers to hiring legal Americans than hiring illegals.  That's a real problem.  But the root of that problem is that the American government has imposed barriers on American businesses seeking to hire American workers, barriers that don't apply to immigrants willing to work outside the law.  Is that the immigrants' fault or ours?

[kgbsquirrel]

Here's a thought though. If my employer is required by law to draw tax on my wages for social security, how can they (the employer) comply with the law if they hire someone without a social security number? The short and sweet answer is the employer is breaking the law as much as the illegal alien employee.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Here's a thought though. If my employer is required by law to draw tax on my wages for social security, how can they (the employer) comply with the law if they hire someone without a social security number? The short and sweet answer is the employer is breaking the law as much as the illegal alien employee.

Illegals often present false SS cards when obtaining a new job.  The employer still pays into SS, it just winds up going to a complete stranger.

[kgbsquirrel]

Illegals often present false SS cards when obtaining a new job.  The employer still pays into SS, it just winds up going to a complete stranger.

Of what of those that don't even have that as an excuse? You stated it's not the employer's job to enforce the law, however it's still their obligation to comply with it.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Of what of those that don't even have that as an excuse? You stated it's not the employer's job to enforce the law, however it's still their obligation to comply with it.

Depends on the law.  Some laws are worth having and enforcing, some aren't. 

The particular law being broken makes a big difference to my giveadamn.

[Balog]

And immigration laws are on the HTG "Ok to break" list?

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Define 'ok'.

I figure there are plenty enough problems worth worrying about.  Once we get through the big issues we can spare a care for the little ones. 

As long as my neighbors are peaceable and self-supporting, I see little reason to fuss about their immigration status.

[alex_trebek]

Define 'ok'.

I figure there are plenty enough problems worth worrying about.  Once we get through the big issues we can spare a care for the little ones. 

As long as my neighbors are peaceable and self-supporting, I see little reason to fuss about their immigration status.

I agree. Going further, I think that what matters most is the individual's actions when they get here. Sometimes people don't have the money to start the imigration process, or to bribe their native government to give them a visa.

If someone comes here illegally, but is making steps to assimilate, I say we should welcome them.

I am all for deporting those that come here leech off the system, and commit other crimes.

[Balog]

So if I stroll into your house and watch some tv, that's cool right? As long as I just stay quiet, maybe snag some stuff out of your fridge... Or do property rights not extend to nations? Call me crazy, I'm a fan of national sovereignty.

[Scout26]

As some who frequently ended up hiring illegal immigrants, if they present you with a SS card and other ID, even they are done in freakin' crayon, and you don't hire them, expect to be standing in front of judge trying to 'splain why you're not a racist gringo, trying to keep the brown brothers down.

I even called the company lawyers saying we shouldn't hire a new group that showed up in response to one fo our ads.
 
"Why" they said.

"I've never seen before and I don't think our new green cards say 'Estados Unidos' on them."

"Hire 'em."

"What !?!?!??!?!"

"Hire 'em we'll end up with Luis Gutierrez, Fr Pfleger and Jesse Jackson on our *expletive deleted*ss."

Well, I didn't.  I told 'em that we were full up and try again later.   

Yep, someone in Little Village was scamming the recent arrivals with really bad SS and Green Cards.