Author Topic: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?  (Read 53067 times)

Scout26

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #75 on: April 28, 2010, 05:16:59 PM »
We did it once before.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback

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The effort began in California and Arizona and coordinated 1075 Border Patrol agents, along with state and local police agencies, to mount an aggressive crackdown, going as far as police sweeps of Mexican-American neighborhoods and random stops and ID checks of "Mexican-looking" people in a region with many Native Americans and native Hispanics.In some cases, illegal immigrants were deported along with their American-born minor dependent children as is standard international practice. This was although the children were by current legal interpretation of the 14th amendment U.S. citizens. [3] Some 750 agents targeted agricultural areas with a goal of 1000 apprehensions a day. By the end of July, over 50,000 immigrants were caught in the two states. Around 488,000 illegal immigrants are claimed to have left voluntarily for fear of being apprehended. By September, 80,000 had been taken into custody in Texas, and the INS estimates that 500,000 to 700,000 had left Texas on their own. To discourage re-entry, buses and trains took many deportees deep within Mexico before releasing them. Tens of thousands more were deported by two chartered ships, the Emancipation and the Mercurio. The ships ferried them from Port Isabel, Texas, to Veracruz, Mexico, more than 500 miles (800 kilometers) to the south. Some were taken as far as 1,000 miles. Deportation by sea was ended after seven deportees jumped overboard from the Mercurio and drowned, provoking a mutiny which led to a public outcry in Mexico.
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sanglant

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #76 on: April 28, 2010, 05:17:15 PM »
and when they are deported, it's in there pink outfit. :'(

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #77 on: April 29, 2010, 11:00:48 PM »
I am another who is dubious about the illegal alien problem being resolved peacefully.  Illegal immigrants are just one more element of the entitlement culture.  Our value for them is to provide them with jobs, welfare, education, while they send money back home.  Are we using each other?  Sure, but I don't buy the "studies" that show them giving more than they getting.  Where I live they have overwhelmed the education system; no way they are paying up full pop for all the kids they are getting educated on our dime.

There is also a lot of empty palaver about creating a tough border.  Fine, but what happens after they get across?  And what about the many millions here already?  The full impact of illegals, their children, and the family members they will be able to sponsor is more than vast, it is a killshot to traditional American culture and values.

I know how you feel, where do you live btw?
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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #78 on: April 30, 2010, 12:59:42 AM »
Longeyes lives in Los Angeles or thereabouts I believe. No wonder he thinks the world's gonna end soon, if I lived there I'd be praying for the Apocalypse myself.  ;)
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longeyes

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #79 on: April 30, 2010, 01:16:35 PM »
Los Angeles.  

Actually, life where I live is, overall, pretty idyllic, which is what makes the invisible slouching beast all the scarier.  My city, county, and state all live in well-reported fiscal fantasy, and, well, you all know the gun rights climate hereabouts isn't very encouraging.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 05:13:01 PM by longeyes »
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mellestad

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #80 on: April 30, 2010, 01:33:55 PM »
@OP:  I don't have any problem with it, as long as the stops aren't abused.

I don't see anything illegal about it, it seems fairly reasonable to me.  I'm not really sure what all the hoopla is about, most of the anger seems directed at a bill that doesn't exist.

Good article:  http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126390888

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #81 on: April 30, 2010, 01:54:32 PM »
By Peter Slevin
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, April 30, 2010

TUCSON -- Every day, as Sgt. Russ Charlton patrols the south side of Tucson, he encounters a wide range of this city's residents -- legal, illegal, native-born, naturalized, just passing through. To him, their immigration status is largely irrelevant. "People are just people," Charlton said.
This Story


But in a city less than an hour's drive from the Mexican border, Charlton and his fellow officers suddenly are at the center of a roiling immigration debate, and Arizona's new and controversial immigration law is almost certain to transform how they do their job.

"We're way too busy," Charlton said of the law's requirement that police officers question anyone they reasonably suspect of being in the country illegally. "We don't have enough officers on the street to look for other stuff like that. If they're not doing anything, they're just being normal people. Why would I do that?"

Supporters view the law as a common-sense tactic to drive away some of the state's estimated 450,000 illegal immigrants and deter others from coming. Opponents foresee harassment, racial profiling and fear. The police find themselves in the middle.

"We are in a tenuous position as law enforcement," Tucson Police Chief Roberto A. Villaseñor said, noting that the law allows citizens to sue police agencies that do not enforce it. "No matter which way we go, there are lawsuits in the wings. The ones who are going to get beaten up on this most are the law enforcement agencies."

Although some police groups have endorsed the law, a Tucson patrolman on Thursday sued Arizona to block it. Martin Escobar, acting on his own, argued that enforcing the law would impede criminal investigations and violate the U.S. Constitution.

A Latino religious consortium also filed suit, while national civil liberties organizations prepared a separate challenge and the Justice Department continued to consider one. An array of opponents pushed for an economic boycott of the state and planned nationwide protests on Saturday, even as politicians in several other states called for similar laws.

On Capitol Hill, partly in response to the Arizona law, Senate Democrats introduced a "framework" for an immigration bill designed to strengthen security along the 2,000-mile border with Mexico and create a path to legalization for millions of undocumented immigrants in the country. House Minority Leader John A. Boehner (R-Ohio) said there is "not a chance" that Congress will pass an immigration bill this year.
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Police consider Tucson, a city of 550,000, a way station for drugs and people headed north. Immigration politics have always been complicated here, pitting those who say undocumented migrants bring crime and tax burdens against those who say welcoming them is a matter of social justice.

The day after the Arizona legislature approved the bill, the police headquarters was flooded with phone calls. A typical complaint, according to Villaseñor, was this: "Hey, there are some Mexicans standing on the corner? You need to check them out."

The police chief considered the requests "ridiculous" because "a lot of people stand on street corners." Villaseñor, a Tucson native who joined the police force in 1980 and became chief last year, said he understands the frustrations but objects to the law on several levels.

"Too many vagaries," he said. He said that he doubts there is a law officer "anywhere in the state of Arizona" who can accurately describe how to enforce the measure and that he fears it will lead to racial profiling, despite the law's prohibition of the practice.

"It says you can't use race and ethnicity. If you're not paying attention to race and ethnicity, what other elements are there?" Villaseñor asked. "If it's 95 percent based on race and ethnicity, what's the other 5 percent? No one knows."

Villaseñor said he is confident in his department's professionalism. While he described the agency as a microcosm of society, inevitably employing a small number of biased officers, he said, "I don't think you have police officers frothing at the bit to go out and do racial profiling."

President Obama, who brokered an effort to curb racial profiling as an Illinois state senator, warned that the law could lead to civil rights violations, and he urged Congress to pass an immigration bill to keep other states from enacting similar measures.

Gov. Jan Brewer (R) said racial profiling will play no part in enforcement, and she promised strong training. "We have to trust law enforcement," she said.

She said Arizona had little choice but to act because the federal government has failed to address immigration concerns. Some advocates say the law will give police a powerful tool in a state deeply affected by the growing ranks of the undocumented.

"It takes a proactive approach to illegal immigration instead of allowing an illegal alien to commit another crime first," said Mark Spencer, president of the Phoenix Law Enforcement Association, which represents 2,500 detectives and patrol officers.

Charlton, the police sergeant, supervises patrol officers in a sprawling, heavily Hispanic working-class section of Tucson. After 30 years on the force, he said his job is "to investigate crimes and help people who need help."

During a recent shift, between responding to a traffic accident and to a report of a man brandishing a gun, he considered the effect of the new law. Although he acknowledges that the law provides a potential law enforcement tool, he worries that people who need assistance or could help solve a crime would hesitate to call police.

Charlton also wonders where undocumented immigrants arrested under the new law would be jailed. Then there are questions about paperwork and prosecution and the coordination among local and federal agencies.
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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #82 on: April 30, 2010, 01:56:32 PM »
they tweaked the wording i'm good with it now  i hope it works but i'm not hopeful.  they will be the guinea pig for the country


The first concerns the phrase “lawful contact,” which is contained in this controversial portion of the bill: “For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency…where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person…” Although drafters of the law said the intent of “lawful contact” was to specify situations in which police have stopped someone because he or she was suspected of violating some other law — like a traffic stop — critics said it would allow cops to pick anyone out of a crowd and “demand their papers.”

So now, in response to those critics, lawmakers have removed “lawful contact” from the bill and replaced it with “lawful stop, detention or arrest.” In an explanatory note, lawmakers added that the change “stipulates that a lawful stop, detention or arrest must be in the enforcement of any other law or ordinance of a county, city or town or this state.”

“It was the intent of the legislature for ‘lawful contact’ to mean arrests and stops, but people on the left mischaracterized it,” says Kris Kobach, the law professor and former Bush Justice Department official who helped draft the law. “So that term is now defined.”



Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/op...#ixzz0mbQMqkUD
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 02:53:12 PM by cassandra and sara's daddy »
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Balog

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #83 on: April 30, 2010, 02:13:51 PM »
The cops are too busy to bother enforcing the laws? Poor babies, they should go into a less demanding career field. I hear community organizing has a low threshold to entry.
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red headed stranger

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #84 on: April 30, 2010, 03:14:37 PM »
Opponents of the bill were being intentionally obtuse about the phrase "lawful contact." That phrase was already essentially defined in Arizona statutes as a police stop.   
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longeyes

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #85 on: April 30, 2010, 05:15:04 PM »
"Racial profiling" scares people?

Why not call it affirmative action and disparate impact and make everyone happy?  It's got a long tradition in modern America.

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #86 on: April 30, 2010, 05:39:37 PM »
Byron York does a little work on the reality of the legal construction of AZ's law.  I provide highlighting.  If York's set up is accurate, AZ just passed a well crafted law that will be tough to defeat in court. 
Quote
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/How-Obama-could-lose-Arizona-immigration-battle-92460459.html
How Obama could lose Arizona immigration battle
By: Byron York
Chief Political Correspondent
April 30, 2010
(AP)

We know one thing for sure about the fight over Arizona's new immigration law. Civil-rights groups will file a lawsuit trying to kill the law and will ask a federal judge to issue an injunction to keep it from taking effect as scheduled this summer. What we don't know is how those proceedings will be affected by the Obama Justice Department, which is contemplating the highly unusual step of filing its own suit against the state of Arizona. Also unknown is the influence of President Obama himself, who has gone out of his way to raise questions -- some of them strikingly uninformed -- about the law.

The drafters of the law knew the lawsuit was coming; a lawsuit is always coming when a state tries to enforce the nation's immigration laws. What the drafters didn't expect was Obama's aggressive and personal role in trying to undermine the new measure.

"You can imagine, if you are a Hispanic American in Arizona ..." the president said Tuesday at a campaign-style appearance in Iowa, "suddenly, if you don't have your papers and you took your kid out to get ice cream, you're going to be harassed." On the same day, Attorney General Eric Holder said he was considering a court challenge.

"The practice of the Justice Department in the past with states involving immigration has been to let the courts settle it and not weigh in as a party," says Kris Kobach, the law professor and former Bush Justice Department official who helped draft the Arizona law. Having Justice intervene, Kobach and other experts say, would be extraordinary.

The problem for Obama and Holder is that the people behind the new law have been through this before -- and won. Arizona is three-for-three in defending its immigration measures. In 2008, the state successfully defended its employer-sanctions law, which made it a state crime to knowingly employ an illegal immigrant. Facing some of the same groups that are now planning to challenge the new law, Arizona prevailed both in federal district court and at the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, the nation's most liberal federal appeals court.

In federal court in 2005, Arizona successfully defended Proposition 200, which required proof of citizenship for voting and also restricted benefits to illegals. And in 2006, officials won a state-court challenge to Arizona's human smuggling law.

The arguments that liberal groups make against the new law are similar to those made in the past. Foremost among them is the claim that only the federal government can handle immigration matters, and thus the Arizona measure pre-empts federal law.

Lawmakers thought of that ahead of time. "This law was carefully drafted to avoid any legal challenge on pre-emption in two ways," explains Kobach. "One, it perfectly mirrors federal law. Courts usually ask whether a state law is in conflict with federal law, and this law is in perfect harmony with federal law.

"Two, the new law requires local law enforcement officers not to make their own judgment about a person's immigration status but to rely on the federal government," Kobach continues. Any officer who reasonably suspects a person is illegal is required to check with federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement. "As long as the state or city is relying on the federal government to determine immigration status, that will protect against a pre-emption challenge," says Kobach.

But what if the Obama administration argues that the law is a burden on the federal government? Or refuses to assist Arizona in determining a person's legality? The drafters thought of that, too. There's a federal statute -- 8 USC 1373, passed during the Clinton years -- requiring the feds to verify a person's immigration status any time a state or local official asks for it. The federal government cannot deny assistance to Arizona without breaking the law itself.

Given all that, Obama and Holder will have a hard time stopping this law. Their best hope is that a judge might be swayed by the political storm that has erupted, mostly on the left, by opponents raising the specter of fascism, Nazism, and a police state in Arizona.

That was one thing the drafters didn't expect. As they see it, the old employer verification law was broader in scope and more serious in effect than the new law, and it didn't set off this kind of national controversy. That tells Kris Kobach one thing about the current battle: "It's more about the politics of 2010 than it is about this particular law."
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longeyes

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #87 on: April 30, 2010, 08:40:48 PM »
This issue is not about legality, it's about competing cultural imperatives.  

Twenty million people later we're pretending that this is about the law?  The people who want the illegals here don't give a fig about this or any law and will find ways to ignore any legal impediment.
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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #88 on: April 30, 2010, 09:45:31 PM »

“It was the intent of the legislature for ‘lawful contact’ to mean arrests and stops, but people on the left mischaracterized it,” says Kris Kobach, the law professor and former Bush Justice Department official who helped draft the law. “So that term is now defined.”

Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/op...#ixzz0mbQMqkUD

That's pretty much what I THOUGHT was involved, and I'm glad they clarified it now.  I had a hard time believing AZ was THAT evil, I mean it's not Mississippi from the 60's or anything :)
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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #91 on: April 30, 2010, 10:25:55 PM »
This issue is not about legality, it's about competing cultural imperatives.  

Twenty million people later we're pretending that this is about the law?  The people who want the illegals here don't give a fig about this or any law and will find ways to ignore any legal impediment.

I'm for letting anyone come to America that wants to.  Given that, as an American. it is reasonable to ask you who you are, what do you plan on doing and where?  You are, after all, asking me to give you a piece of what I have.  You should not have to sneak in the back door if you seek freedom and opoortunity.  Look me in the eye and say I will be one of you and I tell you, Welcome!  

 
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longeyes

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #92 on: May 01, 2010, 01:42:00 AM »
Open borders and welfare states do not mix.
"Domari nolo."

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mellestad

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #93 on: May 01, 2010, 02:08:06 AM »
Open borders and welfare states do not mix.

Only if laws are set up to integrate new arrivals immediately.  (No fights about welfare states, I'm just saying you could set it up so the two are not mutually contradictory if you had something like a 'grace' period.)

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #94 on: May 01, 2010, 07:09:18 AM »
Open borders and welfare states do not mix.

Eliminate the welfare state and you'll have to keep the border open to let people out.

Not that I see any drawbacks to that plan, mind you.


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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #95 on: May 01, 2010, 08:47:04 AM »
Open borders and welfare states do not mix.
But, but, it's working so well in france!
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longeyes

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #96 on: May 01, 2010, 10:53:14 AM »
And in California. =D
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Perd Hapley

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #97 on: May 02, 2010, 06:45:41 PM »
http://www.helium.com/items/1819327-illegal-immigrants-plan-to-leave-arizona-over-new-immigration-law
(already linked by sanglant)

Quote
Although illegals may find leaving the state inconvenient, many are threatening to do just that in an effort to evade accountability and possible deportation under the new law. The Associate Press has reported on some families who have uprooted themselves and moved to New Mexico, for example.

Those leaving Arizona may need to act fast because an increasing number of states have taken up legislation similar to the Arizona law. Oklahoma, Ohio, Utah, Georgia, Colorado, Maryland, North Carolina, Texas, Nebraska, and Missouri have all taken up measures similar to that of Arizona.

Although some people are concerned that, if too many states pass laws to enforce legal presence, illegals will have no place to go except back to Mexico unless they want to risk deportation. 

Others have expressed the notion that illegals leaving Arizona would be a good thing: citizens and those in the state legally will have a shot at filling some of the jobs the illegals vacate, reducing the 9.6% unemployment rate.

Threatening to leave?  Some people think it might be a good thing?  This author seems to lack any sense of irony.   =|
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #98 on: May 03, 2010, 08:49:47 PM »
Quote from: Byron York article
"Two, the new law requires local law enforcement officers not to make their own judgment about a person's immigration status but to rely on the federal government," Kobach continues. Any officer who reasonably suspects a person is illegal is required to check with federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement. "As long as the state or city is relying on the federal government to determine immigration status, that will protect against a pre-emption challenge," says Kobach.
I wondered about this when I read the law.  Does this mean the Feds can pull the rug out from under the AZ law by declining to render any opinion on the legal status of the people the AZ popo bring in?

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #99 on: May 03, 2010, 08:53:33 PM »
Eliminate the welfare state and you'll have to keep the border open to let people out.

Not that I see any drawbacks to that plan, mind you.

I suspect this strategy is the only real cure for the illegal immigration problem.  Securing the border is good, but so long as there remains strong economic incentive to sneaking through, there will be enterprising people who find a way.

It's absolutely true, you cannot have a welfare state and open borders at the same time.  (Actually, I might modify that a bit.  You can't have open borders, welfare, and a viable economy at the same time.  You can have welfare and open borders if you don't mind running your society into the ground.)