Author Topic: Barak Obama - Explained  (Read 20742 times)

grampster

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Re: Barak Obama - Explained
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2008, 08:40:17 AM »
Here's a cut n paste for your reading pleasure.

From the Center for Immigration Studies.

 About the Center for Immigration Studies

 

Who We Are
The Center for Immigration Studies is an independent, non-partisan, non-profit research organization founded in 1985. It is the nation's only think tank devoted exclusively to research and policy analysis of the economic, social, demographic, fiscal, and other impacts of immigration on the United States.

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It is the Center's mission to expand the base of public knowledge and understanding of the need for an immigration policy that gives first concern to the broad national interest. The Center is animated by a pro-immigrant, low-immigration vision which seeks fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted.

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The High Cost of Cheap Labor
Illegal Immigration and the Federal Budget

Executive Summary

This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.

Among the findings:

    *

      Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.
       
    *

      Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).
       
    *

      With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.
       
    *

      On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.
       
    *

      Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access them.
       
    *

      If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion.
       
    *

      Costs increase dramatically because unskilled immigrants with legal status -- what most illegal aliens would become -- can access government programs, but still tend to make very modest tax payments.
       
    *

      Although legalization would increase average tax payments by 77 percent, average costs would rise by 118 percent.
       
    *

      The fact that legal immigrants with few years of schooling are a large fiscal drain does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a net drain -- many legal immigrants are highly skilled.
       
    *

      The vast majority of illegals hold jobs. Thus the fiscal deficit they create for the federal government is not the result of an unwillingness to work.
       
    *

      The results of this study are consistent with a 1997 study by the National Research Council, which also found that immigrants' education level is a key determinant of their fiscal impact.

A Complex Fiscal Picture
Welfare use. Our findings show that many of the preconceived notions about the fiscal impact of illegal households turn out to be inaccurate. In terms of welfare use, receipt of cash assistance programs tends to be very low, while Medicaid use, though significant, is still less than for other households. Only use of food assistance programs is significantly higher than that of the rest of the population. Also, contrary to the perceptions that illegal aliens don't pay payroll taxes, we estimate that more than half of illegals work "on the books." On average, illegal households pay more than $4,200 a year in all forms of federal taxes. Unfortunately, they impose costs of $6,950 per household.



Social Security and Medicare. Although we find that the net effect of illegal households is negative at the federal level, the same is not true for Social Security and Medicare. We estimate that illegal households create a combined net benefit for these two programs in excess of $7 billion a year, accounting for about 4 percent of the total annual surplus in these two programs. However, they create a net deficit of $17.4 billion in the rest of the budget, for a total net loss of $10.4 billion. Nonetheless, their impact on Social Security and Medicare is unambiguously positive. Of course, if the Social Security totalization agreement with Mexico signed in June goes into effect, allowing illegals to collect Social Security, these calculations would change.

The Impact of Amnesty. Finally, our estimates show that amnesty would significantly increase tax revenue. Because both their income and tax compliance would rise, we estimate that under the most likely scenario the average illegal alien household would pay 77 percent ($3,200) more a year in federal taxes once legalized. While not enough to offset the 118 percent ($8,200) per household increase in costs that would come with legalization, amnesty would significantly increase both the average income and tax payments of illegal aliens.

What's Different About Today's Immigration. Many native-born Americans observe that their ancestors came to America and did not place great demands on government services. Perhaps this is true, but the size and scope of government were dramatically smaller during the last great wave of immigration. Not just means-tested programs, but expenditures on everything from public schools to roads were only a fraction of what they are today. Thus, the arrival of unskilled immigrants in the past did not have the negative fiscal implications that it does today. Moreover, the American economy has changed profoundly since the last great wave of immigration, with education now the key determinant of economic success. The costs that unskilled immigrants impose simply reflect the nature of the modern American economy and welfare state. It is doubtful that the fiscal costs can be avoided if our immigration policies remain unchanged.

Policy Implications
The negative impact on the federal budget need not be the only or even the primary consideration when deciding what to do about illegal immigration. But assuming that the fiscal status quo is unacceptable, there are three main changes in policy that might reduce or eliminate the fiscal costs of illegal immigration. One set of options is to allow illegal aliens to remain in the country, but attempt to reduce the costs they impose. A second set of options would be to grant them legal status as a way of increasing the taxes they pay. A third option would be to enforce the law and reduce the size of the illegal population and with it the costs of illegal immigration.

Reducing the Cost Side of the Equation. Reducing the costs illegals impose would probably be the most difficult of the three options because illegal households already impose only about 46 percent as much in costs on the federal government as other households. Thus, the amount of money that can be saved by curtailing their use of public services even further is probably quite limited. Moreover, the fact that benefits are often received on behalf of their U.S.-citizen children means that it is very difficult to prevent illegal households from accessing the programs they do. And many of the programs illegals use most extensively are likely to be politically very difficult to cut, such as the Women Infants and Children (WIC) nutrition program. Other costs, such as incarcerating illegals who have been convicted of crimes are unavoidable. It seems almost certain that if illegals are allowed to remain in the country, the fiscal deficit will persist.

Increasing Tax Revenue by Granting Amnesty. As discussed above, our research shows that granting illegal aliens amnesty would dramatically increase tax revenue. Unfortunately, we find that costs would increase even more. Costs would rise dramatically because illegals would be able to access many programs that are currently off limits to them. Moreover, even if legalized illegal aliens continued to be barred from using some means-tested programs, they would still be much more likely to sign their U.S.-citizen children up for them because they would lose whatever fear they had of the government. We know this because immigrants with legal status, who have the same education levels and resulting low incomes as illegal aliens, sign their U.S.-citizen children up for programs like Medicaid at higher rates than illegal aliens with U.S.-citizen children. In addition, direct costs for programs like the Earned Income Tax Credit would also grow dramatically with legalization. Right now, illegals need a Social Security number and have to file a tax return to get the credit. As a result, relatively few actually get it. We estimate that once legalized, payments to illegals under this program would grow more than ten-fold.

From a purely fiscal point of view, the main problem with legalization is that illegals would, for the most part, become unskilled legal immigrants. And unskilled legal immigrants create much larger fiscal costs than unskilled illegal aliens. Legalization will not change the low education levels of illegal aliens or the fact that the American labor market offers very limited opportunities to such workers, whatever their legal status. Nor will it change the basic fact that the United States, like all industrialized democracies, has a well-developed welfare state that provides assistance to low-income workers. Large fiscal costs are simply an unavoidable outcome of unskilled immigration given the economic and fiscal realities of America today.

Enforcing Immigration Laws. If we are serious about avoiding the fiscal costs of illegal immigration, the only real option is to enforce the law and reduce the number of illegal aliens in the country. First, this would entail much greater efforts to police the nation's land and sea borders. At present, less than 2,000 agents are on duty at any one time on the Mexican and Canadian borders. Second, much greater effort must be made to ensure that those allowed into the country on a temporary basis, such as tourists and guest workers, are not likely to stay in the country permanently. Third, the centerpiece of any enforcement effort would be to enforce the ban on hiring illegal aliens. At present, the law is completely unenforced. Enforcement would require using existing databases to ensure that all new hires are authorized to work in the United States and levying heavy fines on businesses that knowingly employ illegal aliens. Finally, a clear message from policymakers, especially senior members of the administration, that enforcement of the law is valued and vitally important to the nation, would dramatically increase the extremely low morale of those who enforce immigration laws.

Policing the border, enforcing the ban on hiring illegal aliens, denying temporary visas to those likely to remain permanently, and all the other things necessary to reduce illegal immigration will take time and cost money. However, since the cost of illegal immigration to the federal government alone is estimated at over $10 billion a year, significant resources could be devoted to enforcement efforts and still leave taxpayers with significant net savings. Enforcement not only has the advantage of reducing the costs of illegal immigration, it also is very popular with the general public. Nonetheless, policymakers can expect strong opposition from special interest groups, especially ethnic advocacy groups and those elements of the business community that do not want to invest in labor-saving devices and techniques or pay better salaries, but instead want access to large numbers of cheap, unskilled workers. If we choose to continue to not enforce the law or to grant illegals amnesty, both the public and policymakers have to understand that there will be significant long-term costs for taxpayers.

Summary Methodology
Overall Approach. To estimate the impact of households headed by illegal aliens, we rely heavily on the National Research Council's (NRC) 1997 study, "The New Americans." Like that study, we use the March Current Population Survey (CPS) and the decennial Census, both collected by the Census Bureau. We use the March 2003 CPS, which asks questions about income, household structure, and use of public services in the calendar year prior to the survey. We control total federal expenditures and tax receipts by category to reflect actual expenditures and tax payments. Like the NRC, we assume that immigrants have no impact on defense-related expenditures and therefore assign those costs only to native-headed households. Like the NRC, we define a household as persons living together who are related. Individuals living alone or with persons to whom they are unrelated are treated as their own households. As the NRC study points out, a "household is the primary unit through which public services are consumed and taxes paid." Following the NRC's example of using households, many of which include U.S.-citizen children, as the unit of analysis makes sense because the presence of these children and the costs they create are a direct result of their parents having been allowed to enter and remain in country. Thus, counting services used by these children allows for a full accounting of the costs of illegal immigration.

Identifying Illegal Aliens in Census Bureau Data. While the CPS does not ask respondents if they are illegal aliens, the Urban Institute, the former Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), and the Census Bureau have used socio-demographic characteristics in the data to estimate the size and characteristics of the illegal population. To identify illegal aliens in the survey, we used citizenship status, year of arrival in the United States, age, country of birth, educational attainment, sex, receipt of welfare programs, receipt of Social Security, veteran status, and marital status. This method is based on some very well-established facts about the characteristics of the illegal population. In some cases, we assume that individuals have zero chance of being an illegal alien, such as naturalized citizens, veterans, and individuals who report that they personally receive Social Security benefits or cash assistance from a welfare program or those who are enrolled in Medicaid. However, other members of a household, mainly the U.S.-born children of illegal aliens, can and do receive these programs. We estimate that there were 8.7 million illegal aliens included in the March 2003 CPS. By design, our estimates for the size and characteristics of the illegal population are very similar to those prepared by the Census Bureau, the INS, and the Urban Institute.

Estimating the Impact of Amnesty. We assume that any amnesty that passes Congress will have Lawful Permanent Residence (LPR) as a component. Even though the President's amnesty proposal in January seems to envision "temporary" worker status, every major legalization bill in Congress, including those sponsored by Republican legislators, provides illegal aliens with LPR status at some point in the process. Moreover, Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry has indicated his strong desire to give LPR status to illegal aliens.

To estimate the likely impact of legalization, we run two different simulations. In our first simulation, we assume that legalized illegal aliens would use services and pay taxes like all households headed by legal immigrants with the same characteristics. In this simulation, we control for the education level of the household head and whether the head is from Mexico. The first simulation shows that the net fiscal deficit grows from about $2,700 to more than $6,000 per household. In the second simulation, we again control for education and whether the household head is Mexican and also assume that illegals would become like post-1986 legal immigrants, excluding refugees. Because illegals are much more like recently arrived non-refugees than legal immigrants in general, the second simulation is the more plausible. The second simulation shows that the net fiscal deficit per household would climb to $7,700.

Results Similar to Other Studies. Our overall conclusion that education level is the primary determinant of tax payments made and services used is very similar to the conclusion of the 1997 National Research Council report, "The New Americans." The results of our study also closely match the findings of a 1998 Urban Institute study, which examined tax payments by illegal aliens in New York State. In order to test our results we ran separate estimates for federal taxes and found that, when adjusted for inflation, our estimated federal taxes are almost identical to those of the Urban Institute. The results of this study are also buttressed by an analysis of illegal alien tax returns done by the Inspector General's Office of the Department of Treasury in 2004, which found that about half of illegals had no federal income tax liability, very similar to our finding of 45 percent.
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The Rabbi

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Re: Barak Obama - Explained
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2008, 08:49:43 AM »
Rabbi, if statistics is what you wish, 30% of the inmates in our jails and prisons are illegal aliens. Each prisoner-year costs roughly $50k to the taxpayer. Is this a sufficient problem for you?


That really isn't very telling. First off, I don't believe that one third of U.S. prisoners are illegals.
Secondly, you have to compare apples to apples.  Look at the average socio-economic level of immigrants.  Compare their incarceration rates to the same U.S. born socio-economic level.
You will find the rate of illegals incaracerated is actually less than the rate of U.S. born people in the same socio-economic class.
Further, if illegals spawned the crime wave everyone seems to think, why has crime actually fallen in this country in the last 20 years?
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MechAg94

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Re: Barak Obama - Explained
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2008, 09:04:20 AM »
I don't know I personally consider illegal immigration a threat.  Mainly because I think it is easily solved, just no one wants to do it. 
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Re: Barak Obama - Explained
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2008, 10:41:23 AM »
Yeah, I consider illegal immigration a threat. I don't want Domestic Enemies to become reality, but I have a feeling we are in for it soon...and not ONE of the presidential candidates (besides You-know-who) has a desire to do a damn thing to stop it.

I also recognize that the Islamic terrorists (whether or not the rest of the Islamic world practices a "peaceful religion") would like to see us dead and the world under Islamic law...so I am just returning the love in wanting them dead...I do recognize, however, that most of the crap that goes on at the Department of Homeland security is farce when it comes to actually doing something about the threat, and that the Patriot Act and other measures are very, very scary...




 

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roo_ster

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Re: Barak Obama - Explained
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2008, 11:49:11 AM »
I've provided both logical and statistical evidence.  You respond with anecdote while Longeyes responds with paranoia and conspiracy theory.  Which side wins that debate?
If you re-define "logic and statistical evidence" as snide Nazi references, O Son of Godwin, your above statement is spot-on accurate.

I have provided you with a large amount of data over time as to the effects of illegal aliens on my taxes, down here in N Texas. 

For some reason, you think we ought to just keep on getting kicked in the financial Jimmy.  Don't be surprised when we don't just sit idly by while your precious illegals suck on the gov't teat and illegal alien employers screw over their neighbors.
No, I have not defined it in the manner you say.  Maybe if your reading skills were better we wouldnt be having this conversation.
You have not provided any info on the effects of illegals on your taxes in North Texas.  Frankly it is irrelevant to a discussion of crime, but nice try anyway.
Rabbi, why do you make it so easy to prove you wrong?

Illegal Alien Prison Pop Numbers, Public Hospital Use, Public School Use,
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=4416.msg65933#msg65933

Impact of Low-Skilled Folks (Note ~2/3 of illegals are classified as "low skill")
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=6654.msg105550#msg105550

Illegal Aliens in Prisons, To Include BOP, GAO, dallasnews.com, census.gov and Data Importable into Spreadsheet
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=2711382&highlight=illegal#post2711382

Illegal Aliens & Meth
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=2558717&highlight=illegal#post2558717

Illegal Alien Impact on Property Taxes, Schools, Hospitals
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=2148467&highlight=illegal#post2148467

Bureau of Econ Analysis Growth Rates
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=1692447&highlight=illegal#post1692447

Other Posts with Data:
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=3297.msg49582#msg49582
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=8211.msg136789#msg136789

Oddly enough, there was a fellow going by the handle, "The Rabbi" in many of those threads I posted above.

Regards,

roo_ster

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The Rabbi

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Re: Barak Obama - Explained
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2008, 12:03:19 PM »
And amazingly your points are still irrelevant.
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Paddy

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Re: Barak Obama - Explained
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2008, 12:39:27 PM »
Rabbi, you're hilarious.  You make all sorts of ridiculous assertions, then when you're proven wrong, the proof is irrelevant.  laugh   

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Re: Barak Obama - Explained
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2008, 12:50:33 PM »
Rabbi, you're hilarious.  You make all sorts of ridiculous assertions, then when you're proven wrong, the proof is irrelevant.  laugh   

No, every assertion I have made has been backed up with evidence or logical argument.  JFruser cannot seem to grasp the difference between statistical evidence and anecdote.
The simple fact is that if illegals were the crime scourge they have been made out to be then crime rates where most illegals live would skyrocket.  And they haven't. In fact there is less crime, both violent and property, in those areas now than there was 10 years ago.  And more illegals to boot.
This is a simple fact.
And yet the "enforcement" crowd cannot get their minds around it. They know there must be a trick somewhere but cannot find it.  But until they do they will never stop believing that illegals constitute a crime wave of historic proportions.  No matter how often challenged they will respond with irrelevant arguments and numbers. But nothing is going to change the facts on the ground.
They are the sheeple of the enforcement movement.  Facts will not sway their firm convictions.
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roo_ster

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Obama is a stripper and Hilary is your wife
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2008, 12:57:16 PM »
On the lighter side...

So, while watching the debates over the weekend, I figured out why Obama is rising in popularity, and why Hilary is sinking like something that sinks. Obama doesn't have to do a damn thing but sit there and look pretty, and we love him. And Hilary doesn't have to do a damn thing but sit there and look constipated, and you hate her.

In a nutshell: Obama is a stripper and Hilary is your wife. Think about it. When you go to a strip club, you see the very best attributes of the stripper you're ogling. You see her curves and her implants, but you see none of her problems. You don't see her meth habit, her biker ex-boyfriend, the box of severed ears she keeps in her closet. But with your wife, you are familiar not with only the good, but with the bad. The very bad. And this is why men sometimes prefer strippers to their wives.

But, once you leave your wife and start dating a stripper - you quickly find out that she's far worse than your wife could ever be. Your wife doesn't eat her own hair, for example. If the elections were held now, Obama would probably win - which is essentially like marrying a stripper after spending a weekend with her in Vegas, doing lines off her butt. But unlike that entirely made up scenario which definitely didn't happen to me in 1992 when I had long hair and a competitive bobsled racer's physique, a quickie election can't be annulled. If you tie the knot with Obama, as shapely as he is, you're stuck with him for at least four years.
And that's why I recommend ditching both of them and voting for me. I promise a unicorn in every pot and a houseboy in every bed.


And if you disagree with me, then you sir, are worse than Hitler.
Regards,

roo_ster

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Re: Barak Obama - Explained
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2008, 01:03:37 PM »
OK, JFruser, we can always agree on something.
And that there's funny, I dont care who you are.
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grampster

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Re: Barak Obama - Explained
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2008, 03:17:42 PM »
So Reb,

Any comment about the cut n paste that I posted?
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Re: Barak Obama - Explained
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2008, 03:27:14 PM »
So Reb,

Any comment about the cut n paste that I posted?
Yes.  It was a waste of bandwidth.  The question of whether illegals are a net value to society or a net drain on society has never been settled and there are plenty of studies on both sides.
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longeyes

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Re: Barak Obama - Explained
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2008, 03:28:48 PM »
Quote
he simple fact is that if illegals were the crime scourge they have been made out to be then crime rates where most illegals live would skyrocket.  And they haven't. In fact there is less crime, both violent and property, in those areas now than there was 10 years ago.  And more illegals to boot.
This is a simple fact.
And yet the "enforcement" crowd cannot get their minds around it. They know there must be a trick somewhere but cannot find it.  But until they do they will never stop believing that illegals constitute a crime wave of historic proportions.  No matter how often challenged they will respond with irrelevant arguments and numbers. But nothing is going to change the facts on the ground.
They are the sheeple of the enforcement movement.  Facts will not sway their firm convictions.

Well, I guess the answer to crime is simple then: just swap out the old, felonious native population and swap in the new, crime-averse illegal alien population.  Paradise is just around the corner.   Funny, though, that the crime rate in Mexico, where most of the illegals hail from, is sky-high, particularly the violent kind.  You'd have thought Mexicans would bring "Mexico" with them...
"Domari nolo."

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Re: Barak Obama - Explained
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2008, 03:31:33 PM »
Quote
he simple fact is that if illegals were the crime scourge they have been made out to be then crime rates where most illegals live would skyrocket.  And they haven't. In fact there is less crime, both violent and property, in those areas now than there was 10 years ago.  And more illegals to boot.
This is a simple fact.
And yet the "enforcement" crowd cannot get their minds around it. They know there must be a trick somewhere but cannot find it.  But until they do they will never stop believing that illegals constitute a crime wave of historic proportions.  No matter how often challenged they will respond with irrelevant arguments and numbers. But nothing is going to change the facts on the ground.
They are the sheeple of the enforcement movement.  Facts will not sway their firm convictions.

Well, I guess the answer to crime is simple then: just swap out the old, felonious native population and swap in the new, crime-averse illegal alien population.  Paradise is just around the corner.   Funny, though, that the crime rate in Mexico, where most of the illegals hail from, is sky-high, particularly the violent kind.  You'd have thought Mexicans would bring "Mexico" with them...
I think you're actually beginning to understand now.  People emigrate to escape where they were.
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longeyes

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Re: Barak Obama - Explained
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2008, 03:32:29 PM »
Quote
The question of whether illegals are a net value to society or a net drain on society has never been settled and there are plenty of studies on both sides.

Most of the kids in the L.A. Unified School District are either illegals or children of illegals.  Budget per year is about $6 billion.  That's a "drain" on somebody, and since it comes from my property taxes, I'd say it's on me.

People breaking the law can never be of "net value" to a society, not if you value the rule of law.  Unfortunately, an increasing number of Americans no longer do.  They will come to regret that.
"Domari nolo."

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longeyes

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Re: Barak Obama - Explained
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2008, 03:35:18 PM »
People escape where they came from only when there's assimilation.

But assimilation went by the wayside when multiculturalism became the religion of the American elite.

A Mexican with a job in the U.S. is still a Mexican.
"Domari nolo."

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Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

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Paddy

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Re: Barak Obama - Explained
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2008, 03:40:01 PM »
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A Mexican with a job in the U.S. is still a Mexican.

Exactly right.  Because the bulk of his earnings go back to Mexico and are not spent in the U.S. (envios dinero, 'we send money').  But, any extraordinary expenses are borne by the public ie, crime, injury, etc.

So, we, as a country, are ahead.........how?

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Barak Obama - Explained
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2008, 04:18:14 PM »

The Rabbi

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Re: Barak Obama - Explained
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2008, 05:01:53 PM »
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The question of whether illegals are a net value to society or a net drain on society has never been settled and there are plenty of studies on both sides.

Most of the kids in the L.A. Unified School District are either illegals or children of illegals.  Budget per year is about $6 billion.  That's a "drain" on somebody, and since it comes from my property taxes, I'd say it's on me.

People breaking the law can never be of "net value" to a society, not if you value the rule of law.  Unfortunately, an increasing number of Americans no longer do.  They will come to regret that.
And those same kids will grow up and start businesses or work in jobs paying taxes to support your retired butt.  Sounds like a fair trade to me.
In fact most of the so-called "gov't subsidy" that goes to illegals goes for public education for their kids.  Really not a bad bargain in the scheme of things.
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Tecumseh

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Re: Barak Obama - Explained
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2008, 05:04:08 PM »
Here's a cut n paste for your reading pleasure.

From the Center for Immigration Studies.

 About the Center for Immigration Studies

Do you have anything from an unbiased website?  The CIS is basically the equivalent of the KKK in regards to immigration. 

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Barak Obama - Explained
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2008, 05:24:16 PM »
they have a more refined veneer  and a slighly more liberal dress code

longeyes

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Re: Barak Obama - Explained
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2008, 05:29:53 PM »
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And those same kids will grow up and start businesses or work in jobs paying taxes to support your retired butt.  Sounds like a fair trade to me.

They will have to graduate first, which too many don't--and they will have to stay out of gangs and out of jail.

I expect to suppport myself in retirement through savings and investments, a concept I realize is rapidly disappearing as people live for today and expect Big Gov't to take care of tomorrow.  A saver today is considered either a chump or a thief.

"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

Paddy

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Re: Barak Obama - Explained
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2008, 05:33:40 PM »
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And those same kids will grow up and start businesses or work in jobs paying taxes .........

hahahahaha. That's a good one.  Truth is, they won't even be able to speak English, let alone 'start businesses', unless you mean pushing a churro wagon.  laugh

Ben

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Re: Barak Obama - Explained
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2008, 06:41:59 PM »
I completely forgot that Obama's original opponent for Senate was Jack Ryan until I read this article:

http://atomictrousers.blogspot.com/2008/01/woman-who-changed-world.html

As the article says, Obama might have beat Ryan regardless, but if nothing else, I give you eye candy to make up for the closing of the Ukrainian army thread.  Smiley
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Barak Obama - Explained
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2008, 07:52:56 PM »
Rabbi, if statistics is what you wish, 30% of the inmates in our jails and prisons are illegal aliens. Each prisoner-year costs roughly $50k to the taxpayer. Is this a sufficient problem for you?


That really isn't very telling. First off, I don't believe that one third of U.S. prisoners are illegals.

To answer Tecumseh's question, my numbers come from people I know that work for Dept of Corrections and see prisoners every day. I do not believe they lie to me, and neither do I believe there is something wrong with their eyes or ears. I have seen the same or comparable numbers elsewhere as well. I am sorry you do not believe it. Frightening, isn't it?

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Secondly, you have to compare apples to apples.  Look at the average socio-economic level of immigrants.  Compare their incarceration rates to the same U.S. born socio-economic level. You will find the rate of illegals incaracerated is actually less than the rate of U.S. born people in the same socio-economic class.

I think your analysis is based on the tacit assumption that certain types and numbers of crimes are going to be committed no matter who is around. I submit to you that if the criminal is not there to commit the crime, it will not be committed. Illegal immigration and lack of enforcement mean that all sorts of people can come to our communities freely, from the best to the worst. I say we do not need the worst and should not let the worst in because some good ones sneak in as well. The good ones can come here legally. That is why I have always supported controlled legal immigration.

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Further, if illegals spawned the crime wave everyone seems to think, why has crime actually fallen in this country in the last 20 years?

It is my time to say that the above is not telling. Total crime numbers are influenced by too many factors. Let's not cloud the issue with uninterpretable data when something far more straightforward is available. The reality is that if borders were controlled and immigration laws enforced, we would not have those 30% having committed crimes and now being paid for by the taxpayer in our jails and prisons. It does not get any simpler and more obvious than that.

Adding to what longeyes has mentioned, I must point out car insurance as well. A few years ago, a friend of mine got his new Ford totaled by an uninsured illegal. If the illegal were not here, he would not have totaled my friend's car. It simply does not get more clear-cut than this. Another friend of mine got her red Nissan truck stolen and taken to Mexico. It was taken apart and unsalvageable. Thankfully, in both cases, my friends were insured, so it was not a total loss. But, insurance companies do not print money to pay claims. That money comes from premiums my friends, longeyes, and I pay to the insurance company. That is an example of money I directly lose on account of illegals.