Author Topic: Dreams, ideaology, the war on terror and stupid people  (Read 2417 times)

BillBlank

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Dreams, ideaology, the war on terror and stupid people
« on: July 21, 2005, 01:33:42 AM »
Some thoughts I had this morning, nobody about to discuss them with so you lot get lumbered with it. Thoughts?

The Brain is a strange fruit.

As I've stated before I'm not a hippy and navel gazing searches for meaning in dreams are an excellent definition of the phrase waste of time. However, last night one minute I'm in an office at an old drawing board working on the design of an improvised demolition charge in a barge for the purpose of severing an underground tunnel to flood the tube system because I was unimpressed with the recent efforts of the nutters from the other week and then the next I'm shoving my house around like a piece of old furniture using a broom handle and a house brick as a fulcrum to get better light in the garden.  Time for a change of medication methinks.

This has led to some odd thoughts in my head over the morning cornflakes.  Please excuse the simplistic terms.

Terrorists are not engineers. They don't seem to analyse the task at hand very well or find the easy way of achieving their objective. The objective I assume they have is twofold, to create fear,  panic and disruption then from that, generate political will to alter the policy or behaviour of a government.  The secondary objective would be to damage infastructure and thereby have an economic effect.
The recent attacks in London are a case in point of how these groups ineptitude and lack of imagination dooms them to failure. What did they achieve? The deaths of 54 people and a few days of disruption.  The cost to them was four lives and the impending capture and interrogation of the planning and leadership part of that cell.  One of the few military lessons learnt well by the americans  is that  if you help your soldiers stay alive today then tomorrow those same soldiers, with all that investment of training you've put into them, will still be around to do unto the enemy what needs doing. Sounds obvious but it took them a while to realise it.  You may argue that those gentleman who were immolated last week were hardly well trained and you may be right. But. They had value. They had the will, for whatever reason, to carry out orders that led to the deaths of people they had never met.  They had been groomed over a period of several years and were thrown away casually, wastefully even.  Leaving morals aside for a moment, that's bloody stupid.  I believe it's an excellent example of the screwups that happen when people mix ideaology with military planning. If I was them I'd take a look at how the IRA did things in mainland Britain. Clear objectives, excellent security and good planning added up to a politically effective campaign that could be sustained long term because they valued their trained members and worked hard to ensure their survival so that they could continue making and planting devices.

The recent attacks seemed to only have the objective of killing people and they weren't overly effective at doing that. Think about the Tube system for a moment. By it's very nature it has vulnerable areas where the application of a little force could bring about their desired result on a grand scale but their narrow twisted little mindsets blinker them to the possibilities. I find it a delicious irony that their evil disregard for their own lives and those of others prevents them from being as effective as they might be.  They are too evil to win.

A further example of this disability is the attacks on the World Trade Centre in the nineteen nineties. A large van full of explosives was detonated in the underground parking lot, to little effect on the structural integrity of the building.  What puzzles me is that with a little more effort on their part they could have done so much more. The plans of the building were available to the public. A little analysis and some basic maths would have been enough to tell them how much force they needed and where best to apply it to seriously weaken the building to the point where it has to be demolished or even to bring it down in one go. After all,  if you have gone to trouble of building one truck bomb how hard would it be to have had three or more in place?

It's things like that that make me believe in evolution. If the very ideaology that drives you to violence limits your effectiveness, promotes failure and you can't see that then you're stupid. Somebody smarter than you will succeed where you have failed and you will become extinct on a personal and societal level.

As a society, if we stay calm and don't take it personally we will win.  It's not their fault, they're broken people and for the sake of the gene pool it's our sad duty to remove them from it. It's not a war, more the euthanasia of a rabid dog on a grand scale.

This is not a call to nuke the middle east, it's full of people who just want to live like you and me, raise kids, be comfortable and they don't deserve to die so do not interpret these musings as such.
Just so happens Satan's behind the bar pulling the late shift for a buddy...

TarpleyG

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Dreams, ideaology, the war on terror and stupid people
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2005, 03:01:47 AM »
Quote
screwups that happen when people mix ideaology with military planning
Passion has a nasty habit of getting in the way with your true objective sometimes.

Quote
It's not a war, more the euthanasia of a rabid dog on a grand scale.
Well said!

roo_ster

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Dreams, ideaology, the war on terror and stupid people
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2005, 04:51:05 AM »
We are fighting an enemy that can not develop his own technology and can only steal or pervert our to his uses.  Sometimes, our enemies can't even do that right.

Case in Point:  Evil Bert, Osama bin Laden's felt-skinned henchman

Some jihadi with Photoshop and an internet connection cooked up the Osama poster.  Dumbazz jihadi probably googled for images of his beloved Osama, and dredged up an image from the Evil Bert site:

Which he stuffed into his collage d' Osama (1/3 way up from lower right corner).

I agree with Bill Blank that keeping our heads screwed on will help us to win.  I would add that we must also not lose heart and let the jihadi's 5th column in our nation sap our resolve.

Our country and Western Civilization is not only worth fighting for, it is worth blasting the jihadis and their supporters to Hades.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Sean Smith

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Dreams, ideaology, the war on terror and stupid people
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2005, 10:31:58 AM »
"The objective I assume they have is twofold, to create fear,  panic and disruption then from that, generate political will to alter the policy or behaviour of a government.  The secondary objective would be to damage infastructure and thereby have an economic effect."

The means is killing civilians.  The short-term effect is fear, panic and disruption.  The long-term end is, allegedly, political change.

The terrorists are fairly good at killing civilians, at least sometimes, and these attacks do produce the deisred short-term effect to varying degrees.  But they are no good for producing the political change they supposedly want, if that consists of driving us "infidels" out of the Middle East.  In fact, 9/11 did the exact OPPOSITE... it took the US from having an incidental presence in the Middle East that was shrinking over time, straight to massive intervention.  Talk about a screw-up!  Can't do much worse than causing the exact OPPOSITE of what you supposedly want to happen!

So either the terrorists are clinically retarded when it comes to reconciling means to ends, or they have a goal different from the straightforward political goal that is attributed to them.

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« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2005, 12:08:07 PM »
Quote from: Sean Smith
"The objective I assume they have is twofold, to create fear,  panic and disruption then from that, generate political will to alter the policy or behaviour of a government.  The secondary objective would be to damage infastructure and thereby have an economic effect."

The means is killing civilians.  The short-term effect is fear, panic and disruption.  The long-term end is, allegedly, political change.

The terrorists are fairly good at killing civilians, at least sometimes, and these attacks do produce the deisred short-term effect to varying degrees.  But they are no good for producing the political change they supposedly want, if that consists of driving us "infidels" out of the Middle East.  In fact, 9/11 did the exact OPPOSITE... it took the US from having an incidental presence in the Middle East that was shrinking over time, straight to massive intervention.  Talk about a screw-up!  Can't do much worse than causing the exact OPPOSITE of what you supposedly want to happen!

So either the terrorists are clinically retarded when it comes to reconciling means to ends, or they have a goal different from the straightforward political goal that is attributed to them.
Or, thirdly, the terrorists are the ones that most benefit from the changes that are actually made, that is, the US and British governments.

BillBlank

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Dreams, ideaology, the war on terror and stupid people
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2005, 01:01:36 PM »
My timing would appear to be spot on for once. An hour later they try again. After todays bungled attacks the Met released the fact that the devices were acetone peroxide based. Anyone with half an interst in chemistry can do better than that.  
Another thought occurs, I'm off to turkey for a weeks holiday in august after two years of refusing to go because of security concerns and their human rights record. The wife now understands my reservations. I just hope god hasn't got a sick sense of humour and decides to pick on me.

Evil Bert, LMFAO. I've never seen that and it ties in so nicely with the theme of my ramble.

I agree with Sean and Mercedes that their long term goals may be different to what we believe them to be. If they were christian fundamentalists I'd concede the possibility of trying to kick start armageddon but I'm not sure that islam has the same apocalyptic vision. Can anyone enlighten me?

I might start paying more attention to my dreams after last nights little number Smiley.
Just so happens Satan's behind the bar pulling the late shift for a buddy...

Standing Wolf

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Dreams, ideaology, the war on terror and stupid people
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2005, 06:22:18 PM »
Quote
The cost to them was four lives and the impending capture and interrogation of the planning and leadership part of that cell.
Life is cheap in the East.
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

Bemidjiblade

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« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2005, 04:27:56 AM »
Can we posit that the vast majority of terrorists who actually commit the crimes are not horribly well educated?  There are exceptions, but my knee-jerk reaction is to think that educated persons are much better able to think/reason for themselves.  So if you're going to control and indoctrinate someone to death [theirs and others], you need to start young and keep them relatively stupid.  Or at least, enough below you that they will not question you (like college students to professors).

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« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2005, 01:24:41 PM »
Quote from: Bemidjiblade
Can we posit that the vast majority of terrorists who actually commit the crimes are not horribly well educated?  There are exceptions, but my knee-jerk reaction is to think that educated persons are much better able to think/reason for themselves.  So if you're going to control and indoctrinate someone to death [theirs and others], you need to start young and keep them relatively stupid.  Or at least, enough below you that they will not question you (like college students to professors).
O.K.

 Can we then posit that americans that, while disagreeing with what you say, "would die to protect your right to say it", are similar to the "suicide bombers"?

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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2005, 10:06:07 AM »
Quote from: mercedesrules
Can we then posit that americans that, while disagreeing with what you say, "would die to protect your right to say it", are similar to the "suicide bombers"?
Not really. You see, suicide bombers strap explosives to their chest and detonate themselves in crowded areas. The difference might be slight, but its kinda hard to miss. rolleyes

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« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2005, 12:03:38 PM »
Quote from: c_yeager
Quote from: mercedesrules
Can we then posit that americans that, while disagreeing with what you say, "would die to protect your right to say it", are similar to the "suicide bombers"?
Not really. You see, suicide bombers strap explosives to their chest and detonate themselves in crowded areas. The difference might be slight, but its kinda hard to miss. rolleyes
So you agree that they are similar but not exactly the same.

grampster

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« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2005, 05:59:12 PM »
No, mercedes, they are not only not exactly the same, they are not similar in any fashion whatsoever.  Americans have shown a willingness to sacrifice themselves not only that they might be free, but also have done the same so that others may taste freedom as well.

    The difference is freedom vs tyranny, subjugation and mindless obedience.  

    The difference is not subtle, but clear to those who have eyes to see, ears to hear, a mouth to proclaim and an intellect to be able to be willing to discern the difference.
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