Author Topic: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?  (Read 6275 times)

Werewolf

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Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« on: August 20, 2008, 10:04:25 AM »
Poland and US sign Missile Agreement... <Very stupid and dangerous thing to do>

Russia talks big, threatens Poland...

Full Article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26306913/

Quote from: Condoleeza Rice
Such comments "border on the bizarre frankly," Rice said, speaking to reporters traveling with her in Warsaw.

"When you threaten Poland, you perhaps forget that it is not 1988," Rice said. "It's 2008 and the United States has a ... firm treaty guarantee to defend Poland's territory as if it was the territory of the United States. So it's probably not wise to throw these threats around."

Screw '88 - August 1914 keeps coming to mind for me. Interlocking treaties, blustering old men, an assasination and a dominoes falling entry into one of the most bloody wars fought in mankind's history.

Fast forward to 2008 and beyond. The historically xenophobic Russians get pushed a little too far as the buffer between them and the rest of Europe slowly crumbles away. They get froggy and roll into Poland to teach them the lesson that the US isn't such a great Ally and that NATO will not come to the rescue - only it seems beyond their ability to fathom that Poland isn't tiny, isolated Georgia, that it is a full fledged member of NATO and the provocation would most likely be more than that Alliance could bear.

And it'd be our fault the Russians moved because our stupid old men are so illiterate regarding history as to be unable to fathom the depth of Russia's xenophobia and how frightened they are of the rest of the world. Messing with their territorial defense buffer (Finlandized border nations) is like teasing a rattlesnake face to butt from 6". The rattlesnake is guaranteed to eventually bite you in the ass.

VOILA! WWIII for real.

M'thinks that some of the leaders of the major powers either aren't too smart or are flexing their withered old muscles in an effort to feel young and vigorous again. And all that's going to do is get a whole lot of people killed.

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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2008, 10:19:57 AM »
Except for the fact that Poland makes an excellent position to deploy interdiction missile systems to counter ICBM attacks from the Middle East, against allies in Europe.  Between Aegis destroyers in the Mediterranean Sea, Patriot installations in Israel, Italy (probably Iraq and Afghanistan too) and now Poland, we now have a very effective anti-missile deterrent to dissuade Iran or Syria from trying anything silly

Russia is still focused on cold-war era politics, while we are focused on cornering an existing threat.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2008, 10:25:43 AM »
Russia is still focused on cold-war era politics, while we are focused on cornering an existing threat.

Yes, but even if someone is completely delusional and drunk, while they have a very large gun they're waving around, is it wise to antagonize them?

They can't be allowed to do what they're doing, unfortunately, economic sanctions won't work too well, because they can cut off the tap to Europe, which STUPIDLY put itself in a position of dependency on Russian gas.

Europe made Russia very rich in recent years by buying gas, which has given them the rope to hang them with.

Werewolf

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Re: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2008, 10:42:01 AM »
Except for the fact that Poland makes an excellent position to deploy interdiction missile systems to counter ICBM attacks from the Middle East, against allies in Europe.  Between Aegis destroyers in the Mediterranean Sea, Patriot installations in Israel, Italy (probably Iraq and Afghanistan too) and now Poland, we now have a very effective anti-missile deterrent to dissuade Iran or Syria from trying anything silly

Hmmmm...

I would think that a country like Bulgaria, Greece or even Italy would be a better geographic basing location for missiles intended to intercept those launched from the Middle East.

What am I missing here?

Quote
Russia is still focused on cold-war era politics, while we are focused on cornering an existing threat.

Maybe - but IMO a more likely scenario is that after 15 years they've grown tired of being relegated to almost 3rd world status. Russians are a proud people (go figure)and don't/didn't particularly enjoy going from #2 superpower to barely 3rd world status. Now they are flexing their new found economic muscle's as well as acting in their typical xenophobic manner re: perceived threats from the outside world.

There is currently no ICBM threat from the middle east. If one develops we'd know about it in plenty of time to deploy defensive missiles in response (unless our intelligence agencies are spending all their time choking their chickens instead of doing their jobs that is).

Why provoke the Russians now when if a real and creditable threat did develop we could not only place the defenses where needed without threatening the Russians but could probably even put 'em in Russia itself if they felt threatened (and I imagine they would - feel threatened that is - they are the Little Satan after all).
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AJ Dual

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Re: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2008, 10:42:52 AM »
It'll be Iran, IMO. And when Iran "happens" that's when Russia will make any new moves.

Israel is going to move on Iran soon. And from their viewpoint, things are bad enough they'll do it with or without us. The only real factor is the timetable, which depends on the U.S. elections in November. It does not matter who has the majority of the Likud, or who is the Israeli PM, everyone in power in Israel believes/knows that once Iran has a nuclear device, that the odds Iran or their proxies will use it on them approaches well over 50% within 10 years of finalization of a transportable militarily useable device.

There's also a timeline of about a year before the sale and implementation of higher quality Russian anti-aircraft missiles and C3I to Iran goes through, stuff that would give even us trouble if used even halfway decently.

And with Israel being such a narrow and urban/high density country, there are no sustainable losses. In terms of sovereignty and losses one 10-20kt detonation over Tel Aviv would be akin to maybe 10 such detonations over major cities in the U.S. It's simply not acceptable. And you have an enemy who's very religion/ideology precludes any meaningful hope of stalemate or Mutually Assured Destruction cold-war scenarios with a quasi-stable status-quo.

For awhile, I thought Iran's nuclear ambitions were to set up MAD, so they could engage in proxy-war with Israel and the U.S. indefinitely, maintaining a state of constant external crisis to maintain control of Iran internally, but I no longer believe that. Because even if it's true, Israel will act first.

If McCain wins, we have maybe up to a year of breathing room, while Israel sees if McCain has any of his warrior mettle left, and how much "I'm not Bush" cooperation he gets from the international community, possibly for a gasoline embargo, because despite Iran's oil exports, they have almost nil refining capacity, for one last chance to see if economic strife, and the large portion of Iran who does not like the post-revolutionary government can make anything happen.

If it's Obama, I lay better than 50/50 odds the Israeli shooting/bombing to start before Christmas of this year on the hopes a month and 1/2 of support from a lame-duck CnC Bush will do a better job than Obama.

(At the risk of PI leak, I wonder just how much of the Jewish vote really understands this, and is lying to pollsters and will pull the lever for McCain once in the privacy of the voting booth?)

Either way, and no matter who the POTUS is next year, we're getting dragged into it. Even if we totally sat on our hands even more than I'd predict Obama would, Iraq and our U.S. assets there, as well as shipping/tankers in the gulf and Straits of Hormuz will be attacked as part of a larger response/feint to any action over Iran's nuclear program. Even Obama would be forced to respond with something, even if it's just some half-assed Clinton-esque cruise missilery and a naval mop-up to secure the Gulf.

If resurgent Putin-Puppet Russia makes any more Georgia/Osettia-style plays against Poland, or any other portions of the former USSR, IMO they'll do it during the chaos in the Middle East.

Hmmmm...

I would think that a country like Bulgaria, Greece or even Italy would be a better geographic basing location for missiles intended to intercept those launched from the Middle East.

What am I missing here?

Maybe - but IMO a more likely scenario is that after 15 years they've grown tired of being relegated to almost 3rd world status. Russians are a proud people (go figure)and don't/didn't particularly enjoy going from #2 superpower to barely 3rd world status. Now they are flexing their new found economic muscle's as well as acting in their typical xenophobic manner re: perceived threats from the outside world.

There is currently no ICBM threat from the middle east. If one develops we'd know about it in plenty of time to deploy defensive missiles in response (unless our intelligence agencies are spending all their time choking their chickens instead of doing their jobs that is).

Why provoke the Russians now when if a real and creditable threat did develop we could not only place the defenses where needed without threatening the Russians but could probably even put 'em in Russia itself if they felt threatened (and I imagine they would - feel threatened that is - they are the Little Satan after all).

You're forgetting "great circle" routes and how they skew towards the poles when traversing distances from east to west. Poland is a good spot for interception protection of ME/Iranian ballistic missles for the same reasons Pacific airline flight routes you see on your in-flight magazine back cover from LAX or SeaTac to Japan, Korea, or China go all the way up to Alaska.

It's also in a good spot to protect England during some of the best points, during "coast phase" presumably. Remember, England is hated as much, if not more than we are over the formation of Israel, and their colonial past in the region, and the drawing of the borders of Iraq, Kuwait, India, (indirectly through power-vaccuum)Pakistan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan... etc. etc. etc. that have caused a lot, if not almost all of the internal strife in the region.

And there most definitely IS an ICBM threat from the ME/Iran. If you haven't read the news, IRAN JUST TRIED TO LAUNCH A SATELLITE INTO ORBIT WITH THEIR OWN ROCKET. It failed, but the fact they thought it even had a chance to make it, or at least the specifications on paper to make it to orbit is chilling.

They just sent the world the exact same message the Soviets did when they launched Sputnik.

The ability to put "anything" in orbit, is also the ability to put "anything" anywhere in the world.

Of course, by "anything" I mean a nuke.

Also look up "FOBS" or "Fractional Orbit Bombardment System". Stuff so scary and destabilizing to MAD even the Soviets gave up on it (they ran many tests of empty weapons during the Vietnam era, and finally got rid of it under SALT II). A bomb in low orbit gives you about three to five minutes warning, as opposed to the 10 of a sub-launch IRBM, or the 30-odd minutes of a ICBM. The Soviets wanted it to take out U.S. CnC and SAC bases, and counter our forward geographic advantage in friendly nations who based our IRBMS.

The Iranians would just be happy to hit us, anywhere in a metropolitan area will do. And one can presume that off the shelf commercial solutions from China or Russia are much better at guidance than the best the Soviets had in the mid-late sixties.

All of this is very bad Ju-Ju. Even if they just wanted to try for high altitude EMP economic damage against the U.S. or Europe because they can't guarantee the targeting of a particular city.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2008, 11:17:36 AM »
If you can put an object in orbit, you can bring it down. If you can bring it down where you want in one piece, you have an ICBM.

Yay.

Tallpine

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Re: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2008, 11:33:06 AM »
Well, heck - I might as well just get a big bottle of Scotch and go sit out on the porch and watch for the Minuteman missles to launch  shocked

The nearest silo to my house that I know of is only about 30 air miles away  undecided
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41magsnub

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Re: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2008, 12:04:03 PM »
Well, heck - I might as well just get a big bottle of Scotch and go sit out on the porch and watch for the Minuteman missles to launch  shocked

The nearest silo to my house that I know of is only about 30 air miles away  undecided

Actually, those are all gone now from Montana as of this week and the missile wing at Malmstrom is deactivating.  Hopefully the Russians got the news...

Dntsycnt

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Re: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2008, 12:17:33 PM »
How often do they update the doomsday clock?

Just curious if it would tick forward a minute or two with all this Russia fun.

xavier fremboe

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Re: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2008, 12:21:57 PM »
From Stratfor
Quote
The Russian invasion of Georgia has not changed the balance of power in Eurasia. It simply announced that the balance of power had already shifted. The United States has been absorbed in its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as potential conflict with Iran and a destabilizing situation in Pakistan. It has no strategic ground forces in reserve and is in no position to intervene on the Russian periphery. This, as we have argued, has opened a window of opportunity for the Russians to reassert their influence in the former Soviet sphere. Moscow did not have to concern itself with the potential response of the United States or Europe; hence, the invasion did not shift the balance of power. The balance of power had already shifted, and it was up to the Russians when to make this public. They did that Aug. 8.
Lets begin simply by reviewing the last few days.
On the night of Thursday, Aug. 7, forces of the Republic of Georgia drove across the border of South Ossetia, a secessionist region of Georgia that has functioned as an independent entity since the fall of the Soviet Union. The forces drove on to the capital, Tskhinvali, which is close to the border. Georgian forces got bogged down while trying to take the city. In spite of heavy fighting, they never fully secured the city, nor the rest of South Ossetia.
On the morning of Aug. 8, Russian forces entered South Ossetia, using armored and motorized infantry forces along with air power. South Ossetia was informally aligned with Russia, and Russia acted to prevent the regions absorption by Georgia. Given the speed with which the Russians responded  within hours of the Georgian attack  the Russians were expecting the Georgian attack and were themselves at their jumping-off points. The counterattack was carefully planned and competently executed, and over the next 48 hours, the Russians succeeded in defeating the main Georgian force and forcing a retreat. By Sunday, Aug. 10, the Russians had consolidated their position in South Ossetia.


 
(click image to enlarge)

On Monday, the Russians extended their offensive into Georgia proper, attacking on two axes. One was south from South Ossetia to the Georgian city of Gori. The other drive was from Abkhazia, another secessionist region of Georgia aligned with the Russians. This drive was designed to cut the road between the Georgian capital of Tbilisi and its ports. By this point, the Russians had bombed the military airfields at Marneuli and Vaziani and appeared to have disabled radars at the international airport in Tbilisi. These moves brought Russian forces to within 40 miles of the Georgian capital, while making outside reinforcement and resupply of Georgian forces extremely difficult should anyone wish to undertake it.
The Mystery Behind the Georgian Invasion
In this simple chronicle, there is something quite mysterious: Why did the Georgians choose to invade South Ossetia on Thursday night? There had been a great deal of shelling by the South Ossetians of Georgian villages for the previous three nights, but while possibly more intense than usual, artillery exchanges were routine. The Georgians might not have fought well, but they committed fairly substantial forces that must have taken at the very least several days to deploy and supply. Georgias move was deliberate.
The United States is Georgias closest ally. It maintained about 130 military advisers in Georgia, along with civilian advisers, contractors involved in all aspects of the Georgian government and people doing business in Georgia. It is inconceivable that the Americans were unaware of Georgias mobilization and intentions. It is also inconceivable that the Americans were unaware that the Russians had deployed substantial forces on the South Ossetian frontier. U.S. technical intelligence, from satellite imagery and signals intelligence to unmanned aerial vehicles, could not miss the fact that thousands of Russian troops were moving to forward positions. The Russians clearly knew the Georgians were ready to move. How could the United States not be aware of the Russians? Indeed, given the posture of Russian troops, how could intelligence analysts have missed the possibility that t he Russians had laid a trap, hoping for a Georgian invasion to justify its own counterattack?
It is very difficult to imagine that the Georgians launched their attack against U.S. wishes. The Georgians rely on the United States, and they were in no position to defy it. This leaves two possibilities. The first is a massive breakdown in intelligence, in which the United States either was unaware of the existence of Russian forces, or knew of the Russian forces but  along with the Georgians  miscalculated Russias intentions. The United States, along with other countries, has viewed Russia through the prism of the 1990s, when the Russian military was in shambles and the Russian government was paralyzed. The United States has not seen Russia make a decisive military move beyond its borders since the Afghan war of the 1970s-1980s. The Russians had systematically avoided such moves for years. The United States had assumed that the Russians would not risk the consequences of an invasion.
If this was the case, then it points to the central reality of this situation: The Russians had changed dramatically, along with the balance of power in the region. They welcomed the opportunity to drive home the new reality, which was that they could invade Georgia and the United States and Europe could not respond. As for risk, they did not view the invasion as risky. Militarily, there was no counter. Economically, Russia is an energy exporter doing quite well  indeed, the Europeans need Russian energy even more than the Russians need to sell it to them. Politically, as we shall see, the Americans needed the Russians more than the Russians needed the Americans. Moscows calculus was that this was the moment to strike. The Russians had been building up to it for months, as we have discussed, and they struck.
The Western Encirclement of Russia
To understand Russian thinking, we need to look at two events. The first is the Orange Revolution in Ukraine. From the U.S. and European point of view, the Orange Revolution represented a triumph of democracy and Western influence. From the Russian point of view, as Moscow made clear, the Orange Revolution was a CIA-funded intrusion into the internal affairs of Ukraine, designed to draw Ukraine into NATO and add to the encirclement of Russia. U.S. Presidents George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton had promised the Russians that NATO would not expand into the former Soviet Union empire.
That promise had already been broken in 1998 by NATOs expansion to Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic  and again in the 2004 expansion, which absorbed not only the rest of the former Soviet satellites in what is now Central Europe, but also the three Baltic states, which had been components of the Soviet Union.
 
The Russians had tolerated all that, but the discussion of including Ukraine in NATO represented a fundamental threat to Russias national security. It would have rendered Russia indefensible and threatened to destabilize the Russian Federation itself. When the United States went so far as to suggest that Georgia be included as well, bringing NATO deeper into the Caucasus, the Russian conclusion  publicly stated  was that the United States in particular intended to encircle and break Russia.
The second and lesser event was the decision by Europe and the United States to back Kosovos separation from Serbia. The Russians were friendly with Serbia, but the deeper issue for Russia was this: The principle of Europe since World War II was that, to prevent conflict, national borders would not be changed. If that principle were violated in Kosovo, other border shifts  including demands by various regions for independence from Russia  might follow. The Russians publicly and privately asked that Kosovo not be given formal independence, but instead continue its informal autonomy, which was the same thing in practical terms. Russias requests were ignored.
From the Ukrainian experience, the Russians became convinced that the United States was engaged in a plan of strategic encirclement and strangulation of Russia. From the Kosovo experience, they concluded that the United States and Europe were not prepared to consider Russian wishes even in fairly minor affairs. That was the breaking point. If Russian desires could not be accommodated even in a minor matter like this, then clearly Russia and the West were in conflict. For the Russians, as we said, the question was how to respond. Having declined to respond in Kosovo, the Russians decided to respond where they had all the cards: in South Ossetia.
Moscow had two motives, the lesser of which was as a tit-for-tat over Kosovo. If Kosovo could be declared independent under Western sponsorship, then South Ossetia and Abkhazia, the two breakaway regions of Georgia, could be declared independent under Russian sponsorship. Any objections from the United States and Europe would simply confirm their hypocrisy. This was important for internal Russian political reasons, but the second motive was far more important.
Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin once said that the fall of the Soviet Union was a geopolitical disaster. This didnt mean that he wanted to retain the Soviet state; rather, it meant that the disintegration of the Soviet Union had created a situation in which Russian national security was threatened by Western interests. As an example, consider that during the Cold War, St. Petersburg was about 1,200 miles away from a NATO country. Today it is about 60 miles away from Estonia, a NATO member. The disintegration of the Soviet Union had left Russia surrounded by a group of countries hostile to Russian interests in various degrees and heavily influenced by the United States, Europe and, in some cases, China.
Resurrecting the Russian Sphere
Putin did not want to re-establish the Soviet Union, but he did want to re-establish the Russian sphere of influence in the former Soviet Union region. To accomplish that, he had to do two things. First, he had to re-establish the credibility of the Russian army as a fighting force, at least in the context of its region. Second, he had to establish that Western guarantees, including NATO membership, meant nothing in the face of Russian power. He did not want to confront NATO directly, but he did want to confront and defeat a power that was closely aligned with the United States, had U.S. support, aid and advisers and was widely seen as being under American protection. Georgia was the perfect choice.
By invading Georgia as Russia did (competently if not brilliantly), Putin re-established the credibility of the Russian army. But far more importantly, by doing this Putin revealed an open secret: While the United States is tied down in the Middle East, American guarantees have no value. This lesson is not for American consumption. It is something that, from the Russian point of view, the Ukrainians, the Balts and the Central Asians need to digest. Indeed, it is a lesson Putin wants to transmit to Poland and the Czech Republic as well. The United States wants to place ballistic missile defense installations in those countries, and the Russians want them to understand that allowing this to happen increases their risk, not their security.
The Russians knew the United States would denounce their attack. This actually plays into Russian hands. The more vocal senior leaders are, the greater the contrast with their inaction, and the Russians wanted to drive home the idea that American guarantees are empty talk.
The Russians also know something else that is of vital importance: For the United States, the Middle East is far more important than the Caucasus, and Iran is particularly important. The United States wants the Russians to participate in sanctions against Iran. Even more importantly, they do not want the Russians to sell weapons to Iran, particularly the highly effective S-300 air defense system. Georgia is a marginal issue to the United States; Iran is a central issue. The Russians are in a position to pose serious problems for the United States not only in Iran, but also with weapons sales to other countries, like Syria.
Therefore, the United States has a problem  it either must reorient its strategy away from the Middle East and toward the Caucasus, or it has to seriously limit its response to Georgia to avoid a Russian counter in Iran. Even if the United States had an appetite for another war in Georgia at this time, it would have to calculate the Russian response in Iran  and possibly in Afghanistan (even though Moscows interests there are currently aligned with those of Washington).
In other words, the Russians have backed the Americans into a corner. The Europeans, who for the most part lack expeditionary militaries and are dependent upon Russian energy exports, have even fewer options. If nothing else happens, the Russians will have demonstrated that they have resumed their role as a regional power. Russia is not a global power by any means, but a significant regional power with lots of nuclear weapons and an economy that isnt all too shabby at the moment. It has also compelled every state on the Russian periphery to re-evaluate its position relative to Moscow. As for Georgia, the Russians appear ready to demand the resignation of President Mikhail Saakashvili. Militarily, that is their option. That is all they wanted to demonstrate, and they have demonstrated it.
The war in Georgia, therefore, is Russias public return to great power status. This is not something that just happened  it has been unfolding ever since Putin took power, and with growing intensity in the past five years. Part of it has to do with the increase of Russian power, but a great deal of it has to do with the fact that the Middle Eastern wars have left the United States off-balance and short on resources. As we have written, this conflict created a window of opportunity. The Russian goal is to use that window to assert a new reality throughout the region while the Americans are tied down elsewhere and dependent on the Russians. The war was far from a surprise; it has been building for months. But the geopolitical foundations of the war have been building since 1992. Russia has been an empire for centuries. The last 15 years or so were not the new reality, but simply an aberration that would be rectified. And now it is being rectified.
I'm with the OP on the danger of interlocking treaties.  I also think that Russia will have a hand in any Iranian shenanigans.  Just to keep us preoccupied.  Fun times we live in, eh?
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2008, 12:22:29 PM »
Quote
t failed, but the fact they thought it even had a chance to make it, or at least the specifications on paper to make it to orbit is chilling.

How do you know they did? Maybe they were faking it all from the get-go.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2008, 03:12:20 PM »
Quote
t failed, but the fact they thought it even had a chance to make it, or at least the specifications on paper to make it to orbit is chilling.

How do you know they did? Maybe they were faking it all from the get-go.

US DOD official-line intel is painting the launch as a "complete failure", however the FAS globalsecurity.org and others are arguing there is good evidence that there was second stage ignition, and that Iran did at least learn a lot. And Iran is not nearly as isolated from outside technical aid transfer as North Korea is.

And even from video, pics, or commercial satellite imagery of the launch site, and the rocket during prep, you can use pretty simple math to compare with nearby reference objects of known scale; roads, train tracks, trucks, people etc. This allows you to say Iranian rocket is X tall, Y in diameter, holds approximately Z fuel, and get a gross estimate of it's weight, and you have a good idea if it's capable of making orbit or not. Granted, if it works.

OTOH, if you look at the size of the Mercury/Redstone rocket that put John Glenn into orbit, (or send a fair sized nuke to the USSR) and watch the old NASA footage of crew walking around at it's base, it wasn't all that huge/impressive a rocket. It was essentially the grandchild of the German V2 on steroids, courtesy Werner Von Braun and Co. And if you look at what the best the US and USSR could do in 1962, Iran copying it in 2008, when disposable children's toys have more computing power available than existed in the whole world in 1962, you see how Iran can have a certain leg up in this.

There's a lot you won't know from imagery, turbopumps (if liquid fueled), guidance systems, efficiency/specific impulse of the rocket motors used etc. that has a lot of bearing on performance, but there's educated guesses you can make from other intel such as actual spy-work, and known tech transfers and the engineering style, philosophy, and preferences, of whoever is backing them. There's still guessing going on until it's launched, and you see what it actually can do, but even on the ground, you can at least tell if the Iranians are serious or not, and if they think it has a chance of working. And everything indicates they did.

And the difference in the third-world space/ICBM race is that North Korea's main sponsor, China mainly just wants them to behave and keep quiet, as their Stalinist version of Communism obviously differs greatly from the modern quasi-capitalistic neon skyscraper post-Communist-Communist version China is trying to present to the world, and they're an embarrassment.

Iran on the other hand, has Russia, China, and others who wish to actively help them achieve these goals to undermine Western Civ/U.S./NATO/Israel/Europe etc. or simply want the cash, of which Iran has more than NK to play with.

I promise not to duck.

De Selby

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Re: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2008, 07:26:35 PM »
The threat from Iran is imaginary-they have no nuclear weapons, and they don't have any means to launch any weapon this far.  It's quite silly, really.  If Iran were as serious a threat as it's made out to be, we'd be negotiating with it just like we do with North Korea, China, and Russia.   For good reason: it's insane to start a war when you aren't absolutely sure you can destroy the other side without sustaining grevious losses.

This is game playing with Russia, and I agree with Werewolf-this might actually be the seed of WWIII. 

Nice job, Washington, London, & Co.  You got handed the greatest material and military prize ever known to mankind, and you basically blew it on toys, handouts, and antagonism.
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Re: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2008, 08:16:57 PM »
Don't forget the wasted political capital.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Manedwolf

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Re: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2008, 03:13:54 AM »
There's a lot you won't know from imagery, turbopumps (if liquid fueled), guidance systems, efficiency/specific impulse of the rocket motors used etc. that has a lot of bearing on performance, but there's educated guesses you can make from other intel such as actual spy-work, and known tech transfers and the engineering style, philosophy, and preferences, of whoever is backing them. There's still guessing going on until it's launched, and you see what it actually can do, but even on the ground, you can at least tell if the Iranians are serious or not, and if they think it has a chance of working. And everything indicates they did.

I believe a lot of information can be gotten from an accurate video of the launch. Exhaust temp via color temperature, specific impulse from video of the exhaust pulse, etc.

dogmush

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Re: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2008, 03:47:35 AM »
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and they don't have any means to launch any weapon this far.

If they don't right now, they will soon.  Second test:

http://www.itwire.com/content/view/20100/1066/

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On Sunday, August 17, 2008, the Iranian government announced that it "successfully" launched, for the second time, its Safir two-stage satellite-carrier rocket into space. It supposedly lifted a dummy satellite into orbit

The launch of the Safir (also meaning ambassador or messenger) was in preparation for the future launch of Irans first indigenously launched satellite into orbitits Omid (meaning hope or "peace").

The dummy satellite supposedly made a successful insertion into orbit, about 404 miles (650 kilometers) above the Earths surface. It apparently passes over Iran six times in one day (24-hour period).

It's not rocket sci...... O.K. it is rocket science, but it's not as complicated as many would have you think.  Even if they're fudging this test a little, odds are good that they'll get a working one soon.

Also their working, tested MRBM is modified from N. Koreas to up it's range to 1600 kms.  Distance from Tehran to Tel Aviv?  1,588 kms as the crow (missle) flies.  so now they have two missles waiting on warheads.

Of course it's possible we're being paranoid and they just want a sat. in space to pirate NASCAR feeds.

As to the negotiations with Iran it went kinda like this:

US:  Stop making big weapons are we'll cut you off from the world.
Iran:  O.K.  we got some money, and China and Russia will still sell to us.
US:  Seriously, stop with the nuke thing.
Iran: or what?
US: Or we might have to use force.
Iran:  Bring it, you're bluffing, your military's tapped out.  Hey Look!  Whats Russia up to?

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For good reason: it's insane to start a war when you aren't absolutely sure you can destroy the other side without sustaining grevious losses.

One persons grevious losses is another's acceptable cost.

MechAg94

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Re: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2008, 04:29:43 AM »
How often do they update the doomsday clock?

Just curious if it would tick forward a minute or two with all this Russia fun.
Who does that?  Isn't it just a bunch of liberal peace activists? 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

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Re: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2008, 04:31:02 AM »
Poland stood by Bush in Iraq and has defended our mission there.  I am sure that is why Bush sees no problem in doing what we can to support Poland. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

AJ Dual

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Re: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2008, 05:08:51 AM »
The threat from Iran is imaginary-they have no nuclear weapons, and they don't have any means to launch any weapon this far.  It's quite silly, really.  If Iran were as serious a threat as it's made out to be, we'd be negotiating with it just like we do with North Korea, China, and Russia.   For good reason: it's insane to start a war when you aren't absolutely sure you can destroy the other side without sustaining grevious losses.

This is game playing with Russia, and I agree with Werewolf-this might actually be the seed of WWIII. 

Nice job, Washington, London, & Co.  You got handed the greatest material and military prize ever known to mankind, and you basically blew it on toys, handouts, and antagonism.

You're missing the point completely. You're still carping about the west's inabillity to understand the Muslim/ME mindset and how we view the situation constantly in the present, while the ME views it through the lens of 1000 years of history, yadda, yadda, yadda. All the missteps and outright humiliation the ME has suffered at the hands of the west, etc. etc. etc.

I honestly agree with a lot of what you have to say. The ME views western civ as a bully who keeps coming around to beat on them, and the bully has institutional amnesia, viewing each new beat-down as a distinct, independant, and justifiable fight while the ME sees the long-term pattern.

However...

First, your comment that Iran "has no nuclear weapons" is inane in the extreme. We can add an editorial [yet] to your statment, which is understood by everyone. You're mincing words. The acquisition of uranium-gas separation centrifuges and other bomb-making equipment are documented, as are the hardened, distributed, underground bunker facilities, which is an obvious nod to what Israel did to Iraq's open-air program in the 80's.

If the Iranians aren't working on the bomb, they're engaging in a 110% effort to convince the rest of the world, and people who do this kind of analysis for a living that they are. And honestly, if you're going for an all-out bluff, might as well work on the damn bomb...

Ultimately, this is NOT about what the US is or isn't doing about Iran any more. It's what Israel is going to do about it. And then everyone gets dragged along for the ride. And right or wrong throughout history, the geographic, and demographic issues surrounding Israel right now, has them convinced that if Iran gets a deliverable device, they're screwed. And it's about a 99% certainty that they'll make a strike within the next 18 months. Sooner or later within that 18 months, depending on the outcome of the U.S. elections. And that 1% chance to avoid a strike is that we get McCain as POTUS, and he puts some serious economic screws to Iran and we get lucky and the population of Iran forces some serious internal change.

And despite the larger historical context, this is a discreete and immediate crisis with a limited number of outcomes, and one of the various involved parties WILL act.

The problem in your comparisons of Russia, China, and North Korea is that they are rational players. Even when we are/were 100% at odds with them ideologically, pragmatically, or politically, there was something they wanted that we could either give them, or deny them, or convince them they weren't going to get, and we'd both suffer the consequences of MAD.

Even nominally bat-*expletive deleted*it insane Stalinist North Korea takes some verifiable steps to back down from it's NoDong/TaePoDong missle and nuclear programs when we throw them whatever aid bone it is that they'll accept in trade. Iran is different. While it may all be bluster/bluff and playing to the home audience and the rest of the ME/Muslim world, they speak constantly in terms of catharsis and armageddon, and do so without regard to the consequences they'll suffer.

There may be back-channel diplomacy we're all unwaware of in this debate, I understand that. However, to date, from the data we here in APS have to work with, Iran's "Carrot" is the destruction of Israel, and the "Stick", well, they just don't appear to care.

By acting this way, Iran short-circuitng the normal international negotiation process, even if they really just want A-bomb capability to be a "player" and don't really have any plans to nuke Israel or the west. The only thing Iran has ever put on the negotiating table is the destruction of Israel, and through their proxies in Hezboallah, they've never honored any other deals they've made in the past.

And because of that, no matter what Iran's real intentions are, the Israelis feel they have no choice but to act, with or without the U.S. And that will start the ball rolling.

I promise not to duck.

Tallpine

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Re: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2008, 06:51:59 AM »
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Iran's "Carrot" is the destruction of Israel, and the "Stick", well, they just don't appear to care

Could not one of our boomers parked in the Indian Ocean turn Persia into melted glass Huh?


The bright side of all this is that we no longer have to worry about the economy  shocked
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Marnoot

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Re: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2008, 07:12:05 AM »
How often do they update the doomsday clock?

Just curious if it would tick forward a minute or two with all this Russia fun.
Who does that?  Isn't it just a bunch of liberal peace activists? 

"The Doomsday Clock is a symbolic clockface maintained since 1947 by the Board of Directors of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists at the University of Chicago." -Wikipedia

Last moved ahead 2 minutes to 11:55PM for the following reasons:
"North Koreas recent test of a nuclear weapon, Irans alleged nuclear ambitions, a renewed U.S. emphasis on the military utility of nuclear weapons, the failure to adequately secure nuclear materials, and the continued presence of some 26,000 nuclear weapons in the United States and Russia. Experts assessing the dangers posed to civilization have added climate change to the prospect of nuclear annihilation as the greatest threats to humankind."

AJ Dual

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Re: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2008, 07:14:24 AM »
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Iran's "Carrot" is the destruction of Israel, and the "Stick", well, they just don't appear to care

Could not one of our boomers parked in the Indian Ocean turn Persia into melted glass Huh?


The bright side of all this is that we no longer have to worry about the economy  shocked

Yes, but if Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is serious about all the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Mahdi#Sunni_view"" target="_blank">Twelfth Imam apocolyptic talk (Roughly similar in the broad strokes and implications to "New Jerusalem, ruled by Jesus for God's kingdom on earth to the end of Armageddon etc. etc. etc.), then he may think it's actualy necessary.

Plus, there's the usual hairy issues of a several million innocent moderate/secular Iranians (Persians) who don't hate us, and aren't happy with the revolution, or living in a caliphate. Turning them into shadows does not seem exactly fair...
I promise not to duck.

Manedwolf

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Re: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2008, 07:18:39 AM »
I would suggest simply dropping leaflets that show Imajihad obviously in the sights of a POSP scope of the sort found on a Dragunov, and in Arabic, "The Solution to Iran's Problem - Rejoin The World"

Tallpine

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Re: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2008, 09:01:16 AM »
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Turning them into shadows does not seem exactly fair...

The whole USA population lived under that threat for 40 years.

MAD may be mad but it seemed to work.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

AJ Dual

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Re: Will History Repeat Itself? Kind'a?
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2008, 09:18:43 AM »
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Turning them into shadows does not seem exactly fair...

The whole USA population lived under that threat for 40 years.

MAD may be mad but it seemed to work.

That's the problem. Iran (or more correctly, it's government) does not respond to MAD. The Soviets were a rational enemy that weighed cost/benifit ratios of military action in understandable and predictable ways.

If anything, pre-nuclear Iran has been an er.. "sub-MAD" nation. Call them an "AD-nation" leave out the mutual, just an Assured Destruction nation, like Iraq. That status, with us toppling both Iraq, and Afghanistan, and no appreicable, militarily significant insurgency (other than to inflame our own internal fifth-column MSM/liberals), Iran has not changed thier behavior one bit.

(Lybia certianly did... as an example to prove it's possible.)

With Iran, you have a caliphate, that at least publicly, makes it's dogma of cathartic interpretiations of Shia Islam integral to it's foreign policy decisions.

It could be bluster, tough talk, and cultural misunderstanding, and underneath it we have a rational enemy with which some sort of nuclear MAD-stability could be maintained. In fact at one point, that's what I thought Iran really wanted. The extra "untouchability" that comes with being part of the nuclear club, giving them a freer hand to continue the proxy war in Iraq and Lebanon/Israel indefinitely, to cement control of their own population with a constant state of external crisis.

However, that is all moot.

Israel will not gamble on it, and they will act, with or without us, with or without our approval.

Then we get to see how far this thing snowballs.
I promise not to duck.