Author Topic: Russia the enemy  (Read 5036 times)

Ron

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Russia the enemy
« on: August 12, 2016, 10:56:07 AM »
Is Russia really our arch enemy?

Just how expansionist are they planning to be?

Are they actually a threat to western Europe let alone us?

Is there a strategic reason that they have to be our enemy?

Trump seems to be the only one who isn't fear and war mongering about Russia.

grampster posted this link up and it reminded me that I wanted to get your guys opinion on Russia.

http://fredoneverything.org/hillary-trump-and-war-with-russia-the-goddamdest-stupid-idea-i-have-ever-heard-and-i-have-lived-in-washington/
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2016, 11:43:49 AM »
"Fern bar." I had to look that one up.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2016, 11:48:41 AM »
Well... we are actually vastly superior to the rest of the world militarily.

And for every way the U.S. military is hamstrung by the latest PC gobbeldygook, the graft* of the military/industrial complex and PowerPoint, every other non-allied (kinda-sorta) peer military is a decapitated puppet due to inherent authoritarianism and graft of the societies from which they spring.

Of course Fred is completely correct that a needless war with Russia or China is the absolute pinnacle of stupidity. And he's also right that Democrats are the ones statistically the most likely to get us into one too. And that Democrats with "something to prove", be it doddering old Socialists, or first female POTUS with a historically bad disposition and now some TBI on top of it all are even more dangerous.  But Fred's point that Russia has a T34 Armata tank as some sort of scare tactic to make his point is sophistry.

Russia has maybe produced 20 of them so far? And the Saudi/Fracking oil-war has emptied Putin's wallet. The proxy war in Ukraine and the Syrian deployment is pretty much the maximum that Russia can afford.

That we all have Nukes and ICBM's, and sub launched SSBN's ought to be enough. Trying to gin up some fake technological OPFOR parity in the conventional war space just weakens his argument.

(*America at least mainly practices "luxury graft", with even bigger better systems that we don't really need, when arguably shoring up, upgrading, or producing more of existing older systems is possibly better. But at least with "luxury graft" America still gets something for it, whereas more traditional 2nd/3rd world military plain ol' graft-graft just reduces capabilities.)
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roo_ster

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2016, 01:14:58 PM »
Is Russia really our arch enemy?

Just how expansionist are they planning to be?

Are they actually a threat to western Europe let alone us?

Is there a strategic reason that they have to be our enemy?

Trump seems to be the only one who isn't fear and war mongering about Russia.

grampster posted this link up and it reminded me that I wanted to get your guys opinion on Russia.

http://fredoneverything.org/hillary-trump-and-war-with-russia-the-goddamdest-stupid-idea-i-have-ever-heard-and-i-have-lived-in-washington/

Russia is a problem because we have projected weakness and fecklessness.  Had we not spent the last 15 years getting worn out by goat humping troglodytes and the last 7 in spasms of impotent violence, Russia would not be menacing the Baltic and would have thought more about Ossetia, Ukraine, and the Crimean Peninsula.  (IMO, Russia would have gone for the Crimean Peninsula even if the USA was stronger, given a non-Russia-friendly regime in Ukraine.) Not that the USA's actions dictate Russian re-actions.  Russia is not what it once was and only got strategic elbow room because of the USA's geopolitical diminution. 

Our ruling class is infected with the tribal hatreds the neocons have toward ethnic Russians as well as a sick crusading mentality to fight World War G and World War T overseas. 

In a more sane world where the USA had a sane, non-evil ruling class that looked after the interests of America, Americans, and the West in general, the USA and Russia would be natural allies against the anti-civilizational nations to the south of Europe & Russia.  The differences between the American nation and Russians are much less than those between either of them and the forces of evil and savagery to the south.  It takes a concerted effort to maintain the antagonism between us.

Russia can not now afford to buy lots of Armata (T-14/T-15) based armor.  But their standard up-to-date T-90 tanks and BMP-3 systems are plenty capable.  And while the sum totals of our respective militaries favors the USA, Russia has internal lines of commo and can place what they have where they need it PDQ.  Meanwhile, the Baltic nations have spent bupkis on their militaries and we have about a single battalion of Abrams back in Europe. 

The best way to keep Russia in check is:
1. Quit being impulsively, ineffectually violent in places where American interests are not at stake.  The wise & strong avoid needless fights, the foolish & weak are forever fighting for nothing.
2. Open the M-Fing oil spigot.  Drill, baby drill!  Frack that F-er up.  Build the Keystone pipeline and 5 more like it to get Canada doing the same.  Drive oil prices to rock bottom.  Sell that stuff everyowhere.  Without oil revenues, Russia and Saudi and Iran can't afford to be aggressive.



Quote from: fred
A point that the tofu ferocities of New York might bear in mind is that wars seldom turn out as expected, usually with godawful results. We do not know what would happen in a war with Russia.

This plus eleventy

Quote from: fred
This is particularly true when the war is a manhood ritual for masculine inadequates–think Kristol, Podhoretz, Sanders, the whole Neocon milk bar, and that mendacious wreck, Hillary, who has the military grasp of a Shetland pony. If you don’t think weak egos and perpetual adolescence have a part in deciding policy, read up on Kaiser Wilhelm.

Looking at wars and hte road to wars as rational activities will leave one astray.  Hatred, honor, greed, and such are better guides.

Quote from: fred
The US has not faced a real enemy in a long time. In that time the armed forces have been feminized and social-justice warriorified

Indeed. 

Quote from: fred
The same danger exists incidentally with regard to a war with China in the South China Sea. The American Navy hasn’t fought a war in seventy years. It doesn’t know how well its armament works. The Chinese, who are not fools, have invested in weaponry specifically designed to defeat carrier battle groups.

China is another kettle of fish.  But the thing is, no one knows how well Chinese (or Russian, but especially Chinese) hardware will work.  Not just performance specs, but actually just fire off.   And of Russia's vaunted numbers of tanks in WWII, half never made it to the battlefield, breaking down along the way.
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roo_ster

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brimic

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2016, 02:24:11 PM »
Quote
2. Open the M-Fing oil spigot.  Drill, baby drill!  Frack that F-er up.  Build the Keystone pipeline and 5 more like it to get Canada doing the same.  Drive oil prices to rock bottom.  Sell that stuff everyowhere.  Without oil revenues, Russia and Saudi and Iran can't afford to be aggressive.

That also has the positive side effects of making arabs *expletive deleted*it their robes and destabilizing south american dictatorships.
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MechAg94

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2016, 04:22:51 PM »
When it comes down to it, what I see are Russia and even China trying to control things near their own borders.  Russia is probably meddling further away than China.  We on the other hand are meddling on the other side of the world for little actual gain.  I just try to figure what our reaction would be if Mexico or Canada were pissed at us and trying to form a military alliance with China or Russia.  We wouldn't be too happy about that. 

If Europe or at least the other NATO countries still had strong militaries (for their size) we might have less reason to get involved. 
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Ron

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2016, 08:01:21 AM »
When it comes down to it, what I see are Russia and even China trying to control things near their own borders.  Russia is probably meddling further away than China.  We on the other hand are meddling on the other side of the world for little actual gain.  I just try to figure what our reaction would be if Mexico or Canada were pissed at us and trying to form a military alliance with China or Russia.  We wouldn't be too happy about that. 

If Europe or at least the other NATO countries still had strong militaries (for their size) we might have less reason to get involved. 

China has a big presence in Mexico, central and south America. Not military of course but they have vested interests they would want to protect.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

RocketMan

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2016, 11:31:49 AM »
Russia is not the enemy.  Putin is the enemy.  He (and his cronies) is the driving force behind Russian expansionism.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

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Balog

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2016, 05:04:49 PM »
I'm old enough to remember when conservatives thought communist dictatorships were the enemy.
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MechAg94

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2016, 05:44:35 PM »
I'm old enough to remember when conservatives thought communist dictatorships were the enemy.
Sending our troops off to fight prolonged police actions for decades at a time tends to sap that feeling and gets people asking why we are fighting at all. 

Honestly, is Russia really our enemy or is it just that our allies who have to deal with them have gutted their own military to the point they can't offer credible opposition.  I wouldn't call them friend, but I doubt people fear a Communist invasion or nuclear attack like people did in the 1980's.  When I talk about stuff local to Russia, I mean Ukraine and Georgia.  Do we really want to threaten a shooting war in a country bordering Russia?  Afghanistan is bad enough and I would pull out of there also. 
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Blakenzy

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2016, 08:40:30 PM »
If anything can be said about the current state of affairs, the US has become an aggressor and instigator. The US is waaaaaaaay over bounds. So yeah, Russia may be an enemy, but they aren't the ones stoking the flames.
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Ron

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2016, 06:16:29 PM »
Obama, Hillary and the NeoCons really seem to be ramping up the anti Russia rhetoric.

  
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

RocketMan

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2016, 06:30:20 PM »
Russia isn't the enemy, Putin is.  Who here expects him to give up power when his term is up?
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

Ron

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2016, 06:44:49 PM »
Russia isn't the enemy, Putin is.  Who here expects him to give up power when his term is up?

Out of curiosity, just what makes him our enemy more than any other leader of a state that has its own interests?
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

RocketMan

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2016, 06:50:52 PM »
Because he doesn't have Russia's interests at heart, just his own hunger for power.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

birdman

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2016, 07:06:15 PM »
Russia isn't the enemy, Putin is.  Who here expects him to give up power when his term is up?

No one...given that he didn't before when he went from president to PM and back...and the Russians seem to be okay with it.

roo_ster

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Re: Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2016, 07:06:31 PM »
Because he doesn't have Russia's interests at heart, just his own hunger for power.
Because like gwb you can see into his heart.
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roo_ster

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Ron

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2016, 07:08:04 PM »
Because he doesn't have Russia's interests at heart, just his own hunger for power.

While I don't doubt for a moment his hunger for power I think you may be mistaken regarding his looking out for Russian interests.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

dogmush

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2016, 07:12:26 PM »
We've always been at war with Eurasia.

The Dems are finding a new enemy so that they can downplay any danger from the mid east/radical islamists without giving up any of the "OMG EMERGANCY!!!" powers.

roo_ster

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Re: Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2016, 07:32:41 PM »
We've always been at war with Eurasia.

The Dems are finding a new enemy so that they can downplay any danger from the mid east/radical islamists without giving up any of the "OMG EMERGANCY!!!" powers.
Close. 

Dems and neocons point and shriek at russia to distract from the fact that they are the real enemy of americans and much more likely to harm americans than russia is.

When was the last time putin threatened to take away my rkba?  When was the last time putin fined someone in america for not buying health insurance? When was the last time an illegal alien he ushered in at the behest of globalists murdered an american?

Putin would not be mak8ng any noise had we not been frittering away combat power and prestige the last 8 years.  He is only marginally a threat now because the body politic is weak and ailing.
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roo_ster

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2016, 07:35:24 PM »
Close. 

Dems and neocons point and shriek at russia to distract from the fact that they are the real enemy of americans and much more likely to harm americans than russia is.

When was the last time putin threatened to take away my rkba?  When was the last time putin fined someone in america for not buying health insurance? When was the last time an illegal alien he ushered in at the behest of globalists murdered an american?


My thoughts as well. It's often been noted that Dem. politicians treat Americans like the enemy. It's time we woke up, and returned the favor.
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Andiron

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2016, 07:36:36 PM »
If anything can be said about the current state of affairs, the US has become an aggressor and instigator. The US is waaaaaaaay over bounds. So yeah, Russia may be an enemy, but they aren't the ones stoking the flames.

This, so much.  NATO needs to go away, and we need to stop meddling in their backyard.
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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2016, 08:06:52 PM »
This, so much.  NATO needs to go away, and we need to stop meddling in their backyard.
IMO even NATO itself isn't an issue. It's only issue because NATO got stupid and we let in a lot of countries that have no real reason to be there, other than to piss in Russia's Stalin Puffs.


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Scout26

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2016, 08:27:34 PM »
A couple of things:

Didn't Hillary herself give Putin a stolen, badly translated "Reset" button as a sign of a new relationship with Putin and Russia?

Didn't she then give 20% of US Uranium reserves to Russia in exchange for a highly paid speech by Bill to the Russians?

Did Romney get chastised in a debate for his "Cold War Thinking/Outlook" toward Russia?


Having said all that, the biggest mistake we made after the Cold War was NOT inviting Russia to join NATO and still treating Russia as the bad guys.

I'm sure Rev will chime in, but given Russia's historical outlook (feeling inferior and paranoid), bringing it into the warm embrace of NATO would have done much to allay those fears and feelings.   And would have done much to prevent the "unpleasantness" with Ukraine, Georgia, and the Crimea.   (That and us not mucking about in Ukrainian elections.)


So Hillary has to create a ready-made "bad guy" as a good buddy of her opponent, even though her (and her campaign manager) have benefited more and directly from Putin and Russia, then anything Trump could have done as a private individual....
 

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never_retreat

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2016, 09:25:56 PM »
Is Russia really our arch enemy?
Us no, Killary yes.
We really just need to trade more with them both ways.
When the populace of mother Russia starts to like the US and there "good stuff" the political climate will change.
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