Author Topic: Russia the enemy  (Read 5037 times)

grampster

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2016, 09:31:49 PM »
After reading this thread again since it got resurrected, and digesting the reasonable commentary herein,  makes me once again fall back on the Wisdom of Wm F. Buckley.

https://youtu.be/2nf_bu-kBr4
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De Selby

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2016, 09:58:04 PM »
It's hilarious how the media can be aghast that Russia is in the Ukraine, yet debate the importance to human rights of US missions in Yemen.

It is truly 1984.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MechAg94

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2016, 09:58:18 PM »
Yes, and I would trust the motives of those 2000 phone book people more than I would the Harvard faculty.  

There is still talk about war with Russia and I don't understand it.  Russia has nothing to gain by nuclear war unless we won't or can't retaliate.  We have little to gain either.  IMO, it is just political distraction during the election.  I bet some Dem advisers think Hillary looks better when dealing with foreign policy.  
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AJ Dual

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2016, 10:07:34 PM »
Having said all that, the biggest mistake we made after the Cold War was NOT inviting Russia to join NATO and still treating Russia as the bad guys.

We did float an invitation, but it wasn't ever taken seriously by either side. A PR stunt for us, and it was probably counter-productive, with Russia largely seeing it as an insult, and a statement that the U.S. and NATO now saw them as weak after the dissolution of the USSR.

There is less than zero chance Russia would have ever joined NATO, at any time whatsoever between the dissolution of the USSR and the rise of Putin. None. Nada. Zilch.

1. What is the simplest and strongest reason, it would completely go against Russia's national/cultural identity seeing themselves as a superpower, or a one-time superpower, or being a superpower again.

2. (perhaps a subset of #1..) It would completely negate Russian ambitions in the region or the world, even if they could or otherwise wanted to participate in NATO, they wouldn't be able to prop up Syria, Iran, or push the levers of power as they saw fit.

3. No matter what kind of assurances or "seat at the table" or a U.N. Security Council-like veto power. Russia was given within NATO, everyone knows that NATO is run by the United States and all it's other members are to some degree or another subordinate, and Russia would never ever stand for it. And even if some sort of iron-clad deal could be worked out to make Russia on a "more equal than others" standing like the U.S. enjoys, they'd always fear that NATO integration and politics would eventually weaken them into subordinate status. Or, they know full well the other NATO members would never take orders from Russia like they do the U.S.

4. Arguably, probably the most pragmatic and strategic reason if all the political and cultural ones could be swept aside... If they joined NATO, and not in some flim-flam way, but really joined NATO, at the same level of inclusion as the U.S. and the U.K. have... there's no way China would stand for it. And Russia would be in the uncomfortable position of sharing something like 4-5000 miles of border with China as a NATO member. And if America/Japan/Taiwan etc. got into a hot-war with China, Russia would be dragged into it.

5. NATO member states (Well... except for Turkey I guess, but we wanted IRBM's and bombers on the USSR's doorstep.) are all relatively open democracies or representational or parliamentary republics of one sort or another that has ultimate civilian control over their militaries. The civilian government determines the funding and the broad strategic and smaller tactical goals of their nations militaries. Russia never ever had a time in it's existence since the Czars where that was the case, where the military has always functioned as a de-facto branch of their government either under Communism and the USSR or now under the Russian Federation. And to try and get Russia's military completely subordinate to civilian control would stand a good chance of creating a coup.

I agree it would be cool if we could get Russia into the fold, and kinda-sorta set up the "CoDominium" like in the Jerry Pournelle military sci-fi novels, and keep the rest of the world (especially China) in check, and never have any part of it ever act up into a broader hot-war again, but it just isn't in the cards.

I promise not to duck.

De Selby

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2016, 10:56:20 PM »
It's impossible to get Russia into the fold because their leaders are too geopolitically strong, meaning they will always want a real voice for their constituents.  You can't have that while being part of NATO, or the EU.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 08:17:00 AM by De Selby »
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Ron

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2016, 08:15:56 AM »
I'm in favor of winding down our worldwide military occupation of the planet.

Being an empire doesn't seem to be in our best national interest.   

 
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

RevDisk

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2016, 08:44:37 AM »

"The standard American approach to war is to underestimate the enemy, overestimate American capacities, and misunderstand the kind of war it enters."

Pretty much hits the nail on the head. We don't need a war with Russia. We don't want an optional war with Russia. We do need to keep them from invading an occupying most of Europe, again. If for no other reason than giving them that sort of resources is not exactly in our best interests. Hence the entire point of NATO. If we gin up another optional war, it will not end well. Russia isn't a bunch of people hiding in caves using former Soviet munitions smuggled in from mainly third world nations with some second world donations. These are the people that MADE those weapons, and have insane stockpiles laying around.

Even if we quadrupled the size of our Army, cut our military graft to the bone (lol, good luck) and had an excellent fighter portfolio, it would make Afghanistan and Iraq look like a day in the park. We have never gone to war directly with a nuclear power. For good reason. We try to fight people that can't do more than annoy us. Do you really think the American people want to start a war with a country that can nuke our cities? Potentially the majority of them?

Even IF Russia fully invaded Europe, I'd caution against widespread attacks against Russia proper. You'd have a real chance of things going full rodeo and ending up with folks lobbing nuclear weapons at each other. I doubt even Hillary and her ilk want an actual war with Russia. Better another profitable cold war. Still stupid and wasteful. Communism has overwhelming been defeated. The remaining 'communist' countries have mutated into mostly other forms of government, generally just oligarchies like China or dictators like Castro or the Jong dynasty. Russian nationalism or Slavic ethnic solidarity can still be a dangerous thing, I would know as I dealt with it directly, but ideally not the stuff of nuclear warfare.
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dogmush

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2016, 09:05:39 AM »

Even IF Russia fully invaded Europe, I'd caution against widespread attacks against Russia proper. You'd have a real chance of things going full rodeo and ending up with folks lobbing nuclear weapons at each other. I doubt even Hillary and her ilk want an actual war with Russia. Better another profitable cold war. Still stupid and wasteful. Communism has overwhelming been defeated. The remaining 'communist' countries have mutated into mostly other forms of government, generally just oligarchies like China or dictators like Castro or the Jong dynasty. Russian nationalism or Slavic ethnic solidarity can still be a dangerous thing, I would know as I dealt with it directly, but ideally not the stuff of nuclear warfare.

I normally agree with you Rev, but thanks to my crazy in-laws I know several generations of State Dept folks, and have gotten to have dinner with several of "her ilk".  I think they DO want war with Russia.  They, at least the one's I've talked to, have no idea what Russia is like, think it's a broken down bannana republic-ish failed state led by a Bond villain who only lusts for power.  And they seem to be wholly unwilling to listen to the folks whose job it is to know better.

I think that she thinks we could get in a war with Russia and keep it contained to Syria and Eastern Europe, and use it to stoke fires of increased government power and more money for the Clinton Foundation. 

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2016, 10:45:23 AM »
^^^
That and as long gone as she can get Vladimir to only nuke "flyove country deplorables" it's a win-win for her.
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RevDisk

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2016, 12:09:24 PM »
I normally agree with you Rev, but thanks to my crazy in-laws I know several generations of State Dept folks, and have gotten to have dinner with several of "her ilk".  I think they DO want war with Russia.  They, at least the one's I've talked to, have no idea what Russia is like, think it's a broken down bannana republic-ish failed state led by a Bond villain who only lusts for power.  And they seem to be wholly unwilling to listen to the folks whose job it is to know better.

I think that she thinks we could get in a war with Russia and keep it contained to Syria and Eastern Europe, and use it to stoke fires of increased government power and more money for the Clinton Foundation. 

Oh, trust me, I am well aware that the State Department is rarely in touch with reality and actively opposed to the best interests of the United States. I am aware of how much they backed (and continue to back) Clinton. The State Department had dozens of people looking to get papers declassified and were trying to cut deals with other agencies to get it accomplished. I'm aware that they have no idea how countries actually operate, even if it means State department employees get hacked up or ripped apart by angry mobs in third world countries.

We dumped hundreds of billions of dollars down the sewer that is Iraq. Probably trillions when you count all the long term expenses and whatnot. We gained very little in return. You could try to argue Hussein was a threat to the world rather than a stabilizing factor for the region. Both were arguably partially true and partially false. Invading Russia would be ten times as expensive. That assumes we actually shred the patronage system and completely redo our entire federal acquisition regulations, redo how we spend our defense dollars, etc. If not, occupying Russia would be so expensive there would be no way for the US to afford it.

Russians aren't some backwards third world country. They're the ones that ARM the backwards third world countries with their surplus and outdated weapons. The military knows this. Any soldier shot with a Dragonov, had their HMMWV blown up with an RPG, had their MRAP flipped by semtex or Russian artillery shells. Faced with by a thousands times as many actually competent opposition with significant newer variants of those weapons? Oh, with more nuclear weapons than us. Good luck. Every soldier in the US understands this. Clinton may be insane enough to think a limited direct war with Russia is possible, no one else involved does.
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MechAg94

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2016, 12:45:06 PM »
Depending on how Trump addresses it, I think the Democrats drumming war talk is not a winner with the voters.  Again, depends on how Trump deals with it.
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RocketMan

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2016, 03:41:44 AM »
Because like gwb you can see into his heart.

It's pretty simple to see him for what he is, there is no need to over-analyze the guy.  He's just a former KGB type that wants to restore the old soviet empire without some of the communist trappings.  And he wants to be in charge of it all.
And at the end of the day, Russia reflects Putin's own bellicosity.
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brimic

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2016, 12:54:13 PM »
Quote
Even IF Russia fully invaded Europe, I'd caution against widespread attacks against Russia proper.

At this point, Russia invading Western Europe might be the only thing that saves  Western Europe from them from themselves...
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

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Ron

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2016, 12:11:23 PM »
The establishment is still beating the war drums about Russia.

There is a blog post I read where it was suggested that the anti Russia vs friendly relations argument is really a CIA vs NSA conflict, with the CIA viewing Russia as an enemy.

Myself, I really don't know what to think regarding Russia.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

roo_ster

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Re: Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2016, 12:55:12 PM »
The establishment is still beating the war drums about Russia.

There is a blog post I read where it was suggested that the anti Russia vs friendly relations argument is really a CIA vs NSA conflict, with the CIA viewing Russia as an enemy.

Myself, I really don't know what to think regarding Russia.
I suggest that we consider russia as a rational country looking out for the interest of russians. 

Others, not so much...

http://www.unz.com/isteve/the-latest-conspiracy/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2016/12/07/tillerson-might-be-the-worst-one-on-trumps-list/?utm_term=.ef9e9b7ca8fa

Plus, remeber that russia does not uh, bend over for the lgbtbbqfingnuts lobby, so it is a big target in world war g and world war t.
Regards,

roo_ster

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Hawkmoon

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2016, 02:24:26 PM »
China has a big presence in Mexico, central and south America. Not military of course but they have vested interests they would want to protect.

Truth. My late wife was from Chile and I visited there many times while she was alive. Most of South America does orders of magnitude more trade with China than they do with the U.S.
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grampster

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2016, 02:32:10 PM »

"Truth. My late wife was from Chile and I visited there many times while she was alive. Most of South America does orders of magnitude more trade with China than they do with the U.S."

I've been on my soapbox for years wondering why we continue to nebnose the Middle East and in the meantime we have the entire Western Hemisphere to be cordial with, trade with, encourage friendship with.  We have neglected that in the interest of the drug business and propping up dictators while China does there what we do in the ME.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2016, 01:58:48 PM »
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Ben

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MechAg94

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2016, 04:57:01 PM »
"Truth. My late wife was from Chile and I visited there many times while she was alive. Most of South America does orders of magnitude more trade with China than they do with the U.S."

I've been on my soapbox for years wondering why we continue to nebnose the Middle East and in the meantime we have the entire Western Hemisphere to be cordial with, trade with, encourage friendship with.  We have neglected that in the interest of the drug business and propping up dictators while China does there what we do in the ME.
One comment I heard earlier this year was talking about China foreign policy.  The guy said you don't see China's govt getting involved much in countries around the world.  However, you see Chinese companies and trade involved all over the place.  The guy thought the US Govt and military needed to pull back while encouraging our companies in business abroad.  I think part of that is the US tax and regulatory burden on it's companies is so high that becomes more difficult and encourages our companies to relocate. 
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Angel Eyes

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2016, 08:51:04 PM »
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roo_ster

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Re: Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #46 on: December 12, 2016, 09:39:27 PM »
Regards,

roo_ster

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Hawkmoon

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #47 on: December 12, 2016, 10:08:57 PM »
One comment I heard earlier this year was talking about China foreign policy.  The guy said you don't see China's govt getting involved much in countries around the world.  However, you see Chinese companies and trade involved all over the place.  The guy thought the US Govt and military needed to pull back while encouraging our companies in business abroad.  I think part of that is the US tax and regulatory burden on it's companies is so high that becomes more difficult and encourages our companies to relocate. 

That's not really a fair comparison, because when Chinese companies go somewhere -- they buy it. China hasn't set up any manufacturing in Chile (my wife's native country), for example -- for the simple reason that Chileans earn more than Chinese workers, so it's cheaper for the Chinese to make *expletive deleted*it in China and then sell it in Chile -- and that's what they do. What U.S. industry needs is a somewhat level playing field so we can get back to making stuff here and selling it there.

The other problem is that Chinese "companies," in many instances, ARE the Chinese government.
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Andiron

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Re: Russia the enemy
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2016, 08:21:47 PM »
My favorite part of all of this is the thought that the Russians revealing OUR politicians as scum is somehow a Bad Thing..
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