Post by: BrokenPaw on September 24, 2007, 08:45:07 AM
But one of the things they told us at that meeting, I cannot wrap my brain around.
They are teaching the kids that the proper way to hold the steering wheel is at 8 o'clock and 4 o'clock, with an underhanded grip. They claim that this method has the benefit of giving greater control over the vehicle, as well as protecting from hand injury in the case of an airbag deployment.
I've tried it, and I don't buy it, for a couple of reasons.
First, with hands at 8 and 4, supinated, the elbows are locked down by the sides, and the shoulders are in a position that prevents inward motion; if you suddenly had to turn the car right, for instance, your left hand would rotate up and to the left, and your right hand would be dragged downward and inward. Trying this put stress on my right shoulder, and it feels like if it were done forcefully enough, it would cause joint injury. The only alternative is to let go with the right hand, and I was taught by my behind-the-wheel instructor that it was best to have both hands on the wheel for positive control whenever possible.
Second, with hands at 2 and 10, any steering action is initiated by pulling downward with the appropriate hand. This is a naturally-strong action, and puts no stress on the wrists. With 8/4, you're pushing upwards, which is an intrinsically weaker movement, and puts more stress on the wrists.
Third, I've been in an airbag-deployment collision, and I was driving with my hands at 10 and 2, the way I was taught. The people at this meeting the other night implied that 10/2 would lead to hand injury during an airbag deployment, because the hands and arms would be driven up into the face. I suppose this is possible if you drive with your seat so close to your steering wheel that your arms are bent at a 90-degree angle, but if you're that close to the wheel when the airbag goes off, you have bigger problems than whether your hands get hurt; you'll be taking the full deployment pressure of the airbag right on the sternum. Further, if my hands were at 8 and 4, my frame would be locked in a position that is inflexible (where do your put your elbows for rigid support when you're carrying a heavy load? By your sides, right where 8/4 puts them), and the sudden violent motion with them in an inflexible position would lead to shoulder dislocation or elbow damage at the very least.
Fourth, they're telling us that this position is best because of how much safer it is during an airbag deployment. Given that I've been driving for 18 years and I've been in an airbag collision once, I can say that my own personal odds are at least 6500:1 against being in such a collision on any given day; with those odds, I'd rather be in a driving position that gives me better control of the vehicle, and take my chances on getting a broken wrist if my number comes up.
As anyone else hear of this 8/4 hand position thing? Is it legitimate? Or is this another case of Educators justifying their budgets by teaching something that runs contrary to common sense? I'm inclined to fight the school on this one, and put BrokenKid in private behind-the-wheel classes, because of how wrong this seems. I'm doubly so inclined because the teacher actually said (and this is a direct quote), "Don't fight us on this." When people say things like that I get the automagic feeling that they're defensive about it and can't actually justify their position.
So are there any experts out there who can shed light on this? Cops? Driving instructors? OTR drivers? Has anyone even heard about the 8/4 supinated hand position?
Thanks,
-BP
Post by: K Frame on September 24, 2007, 08:46:24 AM
Still gives you enough room that the air bag shouldn't cause problems, such as forcing your hand into your nose...
Post by: Tallpine on September 24, 2007, 09:01:24 AM
Whatever happened to "10 and 2"
Post by: BrokenPaw on September 24, 2007, 09:09:55 AM
They should be teaching them to steer with their knees, so they can hold a cellphone in one hand and a latte in the other
Well, obviously. That's what I'll be teaching her when she's in the car with me. 
With regard to the whole airbag hand-injury thing, I don't even understand that aspect of it; when I was in the collision I mentioned, I did receive minor injury to my wrists, but it was from the dashboard. Meaning that the airbag deployed between my arms and did not push them back toward me at all.
Perhaps my geometry isn't up to snuff, but last time I checked, the airbag lives in the center of the steering wheel, and as it deploys, it expands outward from the center at the same time that it's expanding toward your chest. So I can't think of any legitimate driving position where the arms would be driven toward the face; the worst I can see is them being driven outward to either side, or upward.
-BP
Post by: mtnbkr on September 24, 2007, 09:14:00 AM
Chris
Post by: Jamisjockey on September 24, 2007, 09:22:19 AM
Mythbusters tested the 10-2 airbag thing a while back and determined it wasn't a significant risk.
Chris
Chris
Since when would the publik indoctrination system let facts get in the way of teaching?
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on September 24, 2007, 09:25:00 AM
The pro-8/4 folks say that:
1) Not every body's geometry fits 10-2 or 9-3. Women in general are shorter than men.
2) Because your hands are in a more restful position, they are more likely to be on the wheel rather than resting on the door handle or center console.
3) It discourages "hand over hand" steering in favor of push/shuffle steering.
The anti-8/4 folks disagree with:
1) Greater control is afforded with the hands up higher. It's better to dodge the crash than be safe when the airbag deploys.
2) This concept neglects the other affected people in a car crash. What about pedestrians, passengers, the other driver? How are they better protected by 8/4? Only the driver is safer, and that is arguable and marginal.
My two sources:
http://www.drivertraining.ohio.gov/resources/Steering.pdf
http://www.driveandstayalive.com/articles%20and%20topics/driving-myths-and-mistakes/steering-wheel-use.htm
I don't think it's the school "brainwashing" or anything... I do disagree with the statement your driving teacher made regarding "Don't fight us on this one." School is a place of enlightenment and learning. Or should be. Open discussion as to kinesiology and biometrics should be applied.
If your daughter is particularly short, you might want to give it some thought though. Might be practical for her to drive like that in an F250 dualie, but 10-2 in a little Mitsubishi Eclipse.
Open minds all around.
Post by: BrokenPaw on September 24, 2007, 09:38:04 AM
I'm not closed-minded about the issue. But it's my besetting sin that when someone asks me to accept an assertion that runs contrary to everything I know, or can noddle out on my own, I'm like a terrier in that I will not let them get away without backing up that assertion.
BrokenKid is about 5'1, and will likely remain so. The largest vehicle she's likely to drive any time soon is my Dakota. More likely, my Grand Prix or BrokenMa's Pontiac G6. So nothing too outrageously large.
-BP
Post by: Balog on September 24, 2007, 09:38:24 AM
YMMV IANAL or driving instructor, and I honestly don't have a precise recollection of the article I'm referring to. Just putting it out there as I know we have some C&D readers, seeing if anyone recalls it.
Post by: Gewehr98 on September 24, 2007, 10:00:13 AM
Mythbusters had an episode where they specifically went into the airbag/hand position bit. IIRC, they gave it a "plausible". Lord forbid if you do that and have a steaming cup of McDonald's coffee in your lap at the same time.
(Or are gabbing on the cellphone, or doing your makeup....)
Post by: BrokenPaw on September 24, 2007, 10:48:10 AM
It appears that the Mythbusters "Busted" the myth with regard to anything other than an artificially suboptimal grip.
In searching the web, most of what I see either favors the 10/2 (for greater control), or favors the 9/3 (for greater control), or favors the 8/4 (because it "may prevent injury to the arms" in an accident).
So far I'm continuing to not be sold on the idea.
I find interesting that both my 2005 Pontiac Grand Prix GXP and BrokenMa's 2007 G6 have handy ergonomically-designed grip points at 10 and 2 (and the 2008 models have kept the feature). I would expect that if there was credible evidence that 10/2 caused or increased the likelihood of injury, a major car manufacturer would have done away with the bumps rather than face consumer outrage at the fact that Little Johnny was encouraged to hold the wheel wrong by GM's ergonomic design, and as a result the airbag launched his arms into orbit.
Balog,
According to what I've found online, Bondurant teaches 9/3.
-BP
Post by: Fly320s on September 24, 2007, 10:50:26 AM
I've tried the 8/4 position while driving, but, either because of habit or initial training, or comfort, I prefer 9/3 for the most control.
Post by: Balog on September 24, 2007, 11:07:50 AM
An average height person sits too close and takes the force of a deployment on their sternum. A really short person takes it on their face.
Not sure how widespread the problem is, but I know of a few documented accounts of severe injury related to that. Dunno if 5'1"ish falls within that parameter, but it's something to consider.
Post by: K Frame on September 24, 2007, 11:08:13 AM
You expect the American automotive industry to be at the forefront of safety advances?
Lord, man, what are you smoking and where can I get some? It must be REALLY mind warping stuff!
Hell, Lee Iacoca personally kept the airbag out of production at Chrysler for nearly 15 years, largely because it would eat into profit.
Post by: Bogie on September 24, 2007, 11:18:10 AM
If you're comfortable, you're generally more in control than if you are not comfortable. I generally use 10/2 when things start to get hairy, but most of the time it's 8/4... Because that's where the armrests are...
Post by: BrokenPaw on September 24, 2007, 11:20:22 AM
"I would expect that if there was credible evidence that 10/2 caused or increased the likelihood of injury, a major car manufacturer would have done away with the bumps rather than face consumer outrage at the fact that Little Johnny was encouraged to hold the wheel wrong by GM's ergonomic design, and as a result the airbag launched his arms into orbit."
You expect the American automotive industry to be at the forefront of safety advances?
Lord, man, what are you smoking and where can I get some? It must be REALLY mind warping stuff!
Hell, Lee Iacoca personally kept the airbag out of production at Chrysler for nearly 15 years, largely because it would eat into profit.
You expect the American automotive industry to be at the forefront of safety advances?
Lord, man, what are you smoking and where can I get some? It must be REALLY mind warping stuff!
Hell, Lee Iacoca personally kept the airbag out of production at Chrysler for nearly 15 years, largely because it would eat into profit.
The airbag would have cost Lee, so there's a legitimate cost-to-benefit equation to at least evaluate before deciding what to do. Removing the bumps on the steering wheel as a CYA measure wouldn't cost a thing, when rolled into the design of a new model year.
That's what I expect from the American automotive industry: zero-cost mods that may or may not have an effect, but which cover their arses.
Post by: Balog on September 24, 2007, 11:22:15 AM
That's what I expect from the American automotive industry: zero-cost mods that may or may not have an effect, but which cover their arses.
Mind if I use that as a sigline?
Post by: BrokenPaw on September 24, 2007, 11:25:48 AM
That's what I expect from the American automotive industry: zero-cost mods that may or may not have an effect, but which cover their arses.
Mind if I use that as a sigline?
Post by: CAnnoneer on September 24, 2007, 11:26:46 AM
On another note, airbags can injure you only because they are overdesigned to save drunks that don't use safety belts. I say let nature take its course and redesign the airbags to save and not injure people worth saving.
Post by: K Frame on September 24, 2007, 11:39:51 AM
As it was later PROVEN, the cost of the airbag was buried in the additional profits that were generated when Chrysler, 15 years after the fact, began to advertise itself has having the most models with airbags.
And, contrary to the claim, there's no proof at all that removing those bumps from the steering wheel would either cover OR expose a company to litigation or additional costs.
The American automotive industry has been, for decades, on the trailing edge of virtually every advance in comfort, safety, and performance.
Post by: BrokenPaw on September 24, 2007, 12:03:36 PM
I'm not saying that Iacoca's decision wasn't the wrong one; simply that it was one that did involve significant up-front expense, and therefore one that would require considerable deliberation before deciding whether or not to go with it.
Whereas the bumps on the steering wheel would cost essentially nothing to remove.
My premise is that a hypothetical car-manufacturer exec, when told "Sir, there's a preponderance of evidence that driving in the 10/2 position causes cancer in soccer moms, and we have these here bumps on our steering wheels that encourage drivers to put their hands there," would reply, "Then take the damn things off, I never understood why the steering wheel needed warts on it anyway. And fire Johnson for putting them in there in the first place."
The airbag thing would have been much more complex. Apples != Oranges.
I'm not saying the removal of the bumps would have a legitimate effect. I'm saying that if there was actual evidence that 10/2 was harmful, then (absent cost effects) they would just have quietly been dropped from subsequent models.
Quote
On another note, airbags can injure you only because they are overdesigned to save drunks that don't use safety belts. I say let nature take its course and redesign the airbags to save and not injure people worth saving.
CAnnoneer, they are. They're called 2nd-generation airbags, or something like that.
-BP
Post by: K Frame on September 24, 2007, 12:07:53 PM
Once again, what is the basis for that contention?
Are you an expert in automotive design, manufacture, and inventory control systems?
If you are, General Motors could use you right now...
Post by: BrokenPaw on September 24, 2007, 12:22:51 PM
Now you're just being difficult out of spite.
With respect to inventory control systems, considering the sheer volume of different models and model years that GM's parts-tracking system already has to content with, I'd be willing to bet a dollar that it can handle the following entry:
Steering wheel, (1), no bumps on.
-BP
Post by: Parker Dean on September 24, 2007, 12:25:55 PM
If the car has quick steering, 15:1 or less, then one attribute needed is in place for 8-4 to work is in place. The other is steering wheel placement in relation to the driver. The wheel has to be fairly low and close. My 90 XR7 was that way and 8-4 was the best way to drive the car IMO. About any other position was tiring.
Almost every other vehicle I've ever had, all well-used domestics BTW, were not confidence inspiring when driven in the 8-4 position. In fact, I didn't understand how it could work until that Cougar came along.
So it appears that as with most things, it all depends on the situation.
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on September 24, 2007, 12:41:57 PM
Also... race car driving schools teach knowledge that isn't exactly always appropriate to new 15-16 year old drivers. I'm sure that a BMW Z4 roadster is more road responsive and nimble (and easier to dodge an accident) than a 10 year old Chevy S10 Blazer, but what are you likely to give your new driver?
I'd give 8-4 an honest evaluation. With modern power steering, the supinated arm position just isn't that big a deal IMO.
Post by: K Frame on September 24, 2007, 12:57:17 PM
Then there's also the concept that that inert piece of plastic has to be fabricated, which involves at least one, possibly several, very expensive sets of custom manufactured injection molding dies.
Trenchantly difficult. I think I just found my new signature line.
And spite? Hell, I don't even know you, why should I try to spite you?
Still, my original contention remains -- the American automotive industry, even today when "innovation" is supposely the watchword -- is so pathetically hidebound that it's almost impossible for it to change quickly.
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 24, 2007, 01:02:55 PM
Post by: Hawkmoon on September 24, 2007, 06:48:35 PM
Mythbusters tested the 10-2 airbag thing a while back and determined it wasn't a significant risk.
Chris
Chris
True and correct, but Detroit didn't get the memo. Any of you old enough to remember muscle cars (and that era) or who go to cruise nights to look at the old iron must remember that "back in the day" the spokes of a steering wheel were generally either at 9:00 and 3:00 or 10:00 and 2:00.
Look at just about any airbag-equipped vehicle today and you'll see that the "spokes" (or whatever passes for spokes) are now neatly positioned at 8:00 and 4:00. It's a really horrible position for car control, especially in an emergency, but that hardly matters since most drivers today don't drive so much as aim while sipping, chatting, applying makeup, or checking the morning stock reports on the way to work. They couldn't possibly return their attention to the road in time to take evasive action in an emergency anyway, so it's more important to position the hands low, where the airbag will push them safely down, than to have them high where they may be smashed against a window or even pushed outside of the vehicle if the driver's window is open.
Personally, having survived a couple of serious accidents with seatbelts and having driven in competition with REAL seatbelts, I'd put my faith in good belts before trusting an airbag any day.
Post by: Thor on September 24, 2007, 07:32:09 PM
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 24, 2007, 07:40:49 PM
Post by: Paddy on September 24, 2007, 08:24:53 PM
This is the most ridiculous thread yet.
Post by: BrokenPaw on September 25, 2007, 04:50:17 AM
And yet, despite my being trenchantly difficult, you've still failed to prove your assertion that by leaving the bumps on the steering wheel that the automakers are exposing themselves to massive liability.
Then there's also the concept that that inert piece of plastic has to be fabricated, which involves at least one, possibly several, very expensive sets of custom manufactured injection molding dies.
Trenchantly difficult. I think I just found my new signature line.
And spite? Hell, I don't even know you, why should I try to spite you?
Still, my original contention remains -- the American automotive industry, even today when "innovation" is supposely the watchword -- is so pathetically hidebound that it's almost impossible for it to change quickly.
Then there's also the concept that that inert piece of plastic has to be fabricated, which involves at least one, possibly several, very expensive sets of custom manufactured injection molding dies.
Trenchantly difficult. I think I just found my new signature line.
And spite? Hell, I don't even know you, why should I try to spite you?
Still, my original contention remains -- the American automotive industry, even today when "innovation" is supposely the watchword -- is so pathetically hidebound that it's almost impossible for it to change quickly.
I wasn't asserting that by leaving the bumps on the steering wheel, they were exposing themselves to massive liability. With no assertion, there is no proof required. I specifically said "I would expect...that if there was credible evidence...a major car manufacturer would have done away with the bumps rather than face consumer outrage...". That's all. I was expressing an opinion. Apparently mine stinks just as much as yours does. And since when have you needed to know someone in order to argue intransigently with them about something of no mean importance?
-BP
Post by: Sergeant Bob on September 25, 2007, 05:03:28 AM
I dunno. I usually steer with my knees 'cause I'm drinkin' Starbucks, talkin' on the cell. shaving and finding a CD all at the same time. So I don't use a hand position.
This is the most ridiculous thread yet.
This is the most ridiculous thread yet.
I've seen more ridiculous threads, but I can't remember when.
It doesn't matter what all of you experts say, people are going to put there hands where they want to.
Post by: BrokenPaw on September 25, 2007, 05:25:02 AM
It wasn't meant to be ridiculous. I was asking a question about a driving technique that's being taught to my daughter. It's a technique that I was not familiar with, and it seems counter-intuitive and potentially dangerous, so I wanted to know if anyone else had experience with it, one way or the other.
If it's a valid technique, then I want to teach her to use it. If it's not, I want to teach her otherwise.
What's ridiculous about that?
Post by: MechAg94 on September 25, 2007, 09:24:54 AM
My old S10 blazer had a groove rubbed into the spoke where my fingers sat. I am left handed so driving with my left hand comes natural I guess.I move it up or go to two hands pretty quick if I have to do some maneuvering, but I can drive with one hand just fine. I agree that new drivers should learn a set way that gives good control to start with. I don't care what it is, as long as it works for them.
To me, eyes open and alert is more important than hand placement. If you are paying attention, you should have plenty of time to react.
Post by: brimic on September 25, 2007, 09:51:51 AM
Post by: Tallpine on September 25, 2007, 11:47:22 AM
Dang pickup doesn't respond to seat or leg cues worth a darn, though
Post by: K Frame on September 25, 2007, 12:38:07 PM
Post by: CNYCacher on September 25, 2007, 03:54:19 PM
1 - "Hey, if I have my hands here, will the airbag hurt me?"
2 - "I dunno, probably"
1 - "What if I put them down here, at 8 and 4? That's good right?"
2 - "Yeah, you still have two hands on the wheel, so it's just as good! Plus, the airbag won't hurt your hands!"
1 - "Do you think that the fact that people who were driving since before our parents were born have always advocated 10 and 2 should give us pause?"
2 - "No, I was raised with an over-inflated sense of self-esteem by the public school system."
1 - "Me too! Screw 'tried and tested', we have a new idea!"
2 - "We are so special!"
1 - "Yeah, lets teach as many people our new idea as possible!"
*1 and 2 high-five*
Post by: Sergeant Bob on September 25, 2007, 03:55:13 PM
Sergeant Bob,
What's ridiculous about that?
What's ridiculous about that?
Nothing ridiculous about it at all. I was just responding to Riley's ridiculous reply with an equally ridiculous reply of my own.
Post by: Paddy on September 25, 2007, 03:57:51 PM
Sergeant Bob,
What's ridiculous about that?
What's ridiculous about that?
Nothing ridiculous about it at all. I was just responding to Riley's ridiculous reply with an equally ridiculous reply of my own.
I call your ridiculous and raise you a nobody cares.
Post by: never_retreat on September 25, 2007, 04:09:29 PM
I think I need to learn to park with my knee.
Post by: Ben on September 25, 2007, 05:46:57 PM
Post by: vaskidmark on September 25, 2007, 09:37:43 PM
Quote
Oh Jeebus, you should all have your "guy status" ripped from you. Everyone knows if you're a guy, it's right hand at 12 o'clock, left arm leaning out the window, or left hand 12 o'clock, right arm on armrest, center console, or fiddling with the radio.
And just how am I supposed to do that with the spinner knob which is racheted on at about 9:45? (Keeps the left elbow out the window while the right arm snakes across the bench seat so you can ...........)
Or did all you Mario Andretti wanna-be's take that spinner knob off when your older brother finally gave you his ride because he bought that new Olds 88?
stay safe.
skidmark
Post by: Firethorn on September 26, 2007, 02:05:00 AM
I find interesting that both my 2005 Pontiac Grand Prix GXP and BrokenMa's 2007 G6 have handy ergonomically-designed grip points at 10 and 2 (and the 2008 models have kept the feature). I would expect that if there was credible evidence that 10/2 caused or increased the likelihood of injury, a major car manufacturer would have done away with the bumps rather than face consumer outrage at the fact that Little Johnny was encouraged to hold the wheel wrong by GM's ergonomic design, and as a result the airbag launched his arms into orbit.
For that matter my car has the wheel supports at the 8/4 position, so I can't really take that position if I tried. I'd end up not being able to curl my fingers even a little to take some of the weight off.
At least in my car it's a particularly unergonomic position.
Post by: Scout26 on September 26, 2007, 08:03:09 AM
I'm outta hands to put anymore at 8 and 4.
Post by: nico on September 26, 2007, 09:00:49 AM
Also... race car driving schools teach knowledge that isn't exactly always appropriate to new 15-16 year old drivers. I'm sure that a BMW Z4 roadster is more road responsive and nimble (and easier to dodge an accident) than a 10 year old Chevy S10 Blazer, but what are you likely to give your new driver?
As someone who attended my first driving school at 17 and started autocrossing less than a week after my 18th birthday, I've got to take issue with that. There is nothing about basic high performance driving that doesn't apply to driving on the street. Using your example, it would take more skill to avoid a wreck in the S10 than in the Z4, so why give your kid a double handicap by not teaching them how to really drive? If skills like skid control, looking ahead, and throttle/brake modulation were part of compulsory drivers' ed., instead of harping on meaningless BS like "10 and 2," when you're required to use your headlights, or how far before a turn/lane change you have to turn on your turn signal (all topics I remember from drivers' ed), there would be a lot fewer accidents and people would be much better drivers. Quote
I'd give 8-4 an honest evaluation. With modern power steering, the supinated arm position just isn't that big a deal IMO.
I do agree with that. Like I said above, rigid "rules" like "10 and 2" or "8 and 4" are completely meaningless. Your hands should be in a position where you're comfortable and can react quickly if necessary. fwiw, I'm 5'1" and my hands are generally at ~9 and 3. I was taught that when approaching a turn, you should adjust your hands so that they will be in the same position (ie: 9-3) when you're making the turn. I'm not a fan of shuffle steering. If my car starts to oversteer and I have to go from making a right turn to full lock to the left, I just can't do it fast enough with shuffle steering and I don't know many people who can.