Author Topic: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion  (Read 4914 times)

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,280
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2018, 11:34:48 PM »
Nope. If every poster had to reference things in their posts to ensure EVERYONE here wouldn't have to look things up, no one would bother posting. Because nearly every post would be twice as long and filled with footnotes, because everyone here has some area -- cultural, scientific, or otherwise that they're not familiar with. To ask everyone to write based on the lowest common denominator, or trying to guess what the lowest common denominator is, would be ridiculous.

I've seen things posted here that I thought were obscure. I looked them up. I've seen things posted here that everyone but me seems to get. I've looked them up. Sometimes I've rolled my eyes at nonsense, sometimes I've learned something new. Or something old.

As a sometimes professional writer, one-time professional editor, administrator of one Internet madhouse and a moderator on another, I have to disagree. The purpose of an Internet forum [discussion] is, ostensibly, communication. When someone posts something so arcane that virtually nobody "gets" it, no communication has taken place (unless you count the poster having communicated that he thinks he's smarter/cuter than everyone else on the site as "communication"). I don't see posting on an Internet forum as any different from writing an article. The author's intention, supposedly, is to convey a thought. If what he posts is to esoteric that 90+ percent of the readers have no idea what he's blathering about ... very simply, no communication has taken place.

It doesn't take a lengthy footnote, all that's required is for the author to provide a link to any web site that explains what his obscure reference is all about. It should not be up to every reader to divine what magical combination of words entered into Google will produce the desired information.

It's not only the writer's responsibility, it's also common courtesy.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Doggy Daddy

  • Poobah
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,333
  • From the saner side of Las Vegas
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2018, 12:37:42 AM »
Gargoyling "frequency kenneth" or "kenneth frequency" both return enough to easily figure out the reference within a minute.
Would you exchange
a walk-on part in a war
for a lead role in a cage?
-P.F.

Angel Eyes

  • Lying dog-faced pony soldier
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,340
  • You're not diggin'
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2018, 12:43:20 AM »
I got the "Kenneth" reference immediately. 
"End of quote.  Repeat the line."
  - Joe 'Ron Burgundy' Biden

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2018, 12:52:46 AM »
As did I, as I have the album:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEtlBzcBDfE


Written because of this event:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Rather#%22Kenneth,_what_is_the_frequency?%22

Quote
The assault remained unsolved for some time, and was referenced multiple times in popular culture. The phrase "What's the frequency, Kenneth?" became a popular-culture reference over the years,
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,078
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2018, 08:50:04 AM »
When someone posts something so arcane that virtually nobody "gets" it, no communication has taken place (unless you count the poster having communicated that he thinks he's smarter/cuter than everyone else on the site as "communication"). I don't see posting on an Internet forum as any different from writing an article.

This is my point. You're asking everyone to have the same lowest common denominator definition of what "common knowledge" is and is not. There is no such thing. Almost everyone has a different definition of "things everyone knows" and "things that are arcane". Because everyone has grown up in a different environment. People who watch a lot of TV have a different common frame of reference than people who don't own a TV. People who watch old movies have a different common frame of reference than those who've never seen one. People who have read Shakespeare have a different common frame of reference than those who read People Magazine. People who grew up on a farm have a different common frame of reference than people who grew up in a city high rise. I have a much different common frame of reference than my father. So what defines "common" from "arcane"?

The "What's the frequency Kenneth?" is a common frame of reference to likely a majority of APS forum members. Where do you draw the line for referencing it? At the 51% majority? 90%? Conversely, at what point do we not need to reference something? When only 10% of people don't get it? 1%? How do we know, given that we don't have a standardized frame of what is common knowledge and what is not? I've certainly seen posts from you Hawkmoon, talking about car stuff and I had no idea what it was. You're into cars, so what you wrote is part of what you don't even consciously consider might not be "common knowledge" to someone else. We all do that.

An Internet forum is not a publication. It's just a bunch of friends yacking in the backyard. If you don't know what something is, just say, "What the hell, is that?" the same way you would if you heard it in the backyard while drinking beer with everyone. There was a time (not that long ago)when a US education included a knowledge of basic Latin, so when authors inserted it (and still do to this day)in their writing, they didn't footnote phrases because people were supposed to know them as "common knowledge". If the reader didn't get it, they were supposed to look it up (in books, at the library, before the Internet).

To have to guess at what is "common knowledge" (or not) for every member on APS is simply impractical. Plus it kinda takes the fun out of posting.
 
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 09:03:23 AM by Ben »
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Fly320s

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,415
  • Formerly, Arthur, King of the Britons
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2018, 09:24:07 AM »
And people wonder how come I put "REFs" in my posts.

And, for those of you who will suggest this, it should not be incumbent on your readers to look stuff up in Gargle or whatever search engine they use.  Especially if there are no other parameters with which to filter the search.  32 million hits on "Kenneth."

Nor should the writer assume the reader has the same information-set as himself.

Yes, I'm angry.

 [ar15]

Snarl.

Good thing the name Treadwell is known to me, or I'd not know what "Treadwellified" meant without being a mind reader and I'd be ragging on that, too.

If your purpose is to communicate something in your head, then dammit to hell, COMMUNICATE !

Terry

REF:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Treadwell


I didn't understand any of that.  Can you try again with references to the definitions of the English words?
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

Andiron

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,930
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2018, 10:44:31 AM »
And people wonder how come I put "REFs" in my posts.

And, for those of you who will suggest this, it should not be incumbent on your readers to look stuff up in Gargle or whatever search engine they use.  Especially if there are no other parameters with which to filter the search.  32 million hits on "Kenneth."

Nor should the writer assume the reader has the same information-set as himself.

Yes, I'm angry.

 [ar15]

Snarl.

Good thing the name Treadwell is known to me, or I'd not know what "Treadwellified" meant without being a mind reader and I'd be ragging on that, too.

If your purpose is to communicate something in your head, then dammit to hell, COMMUNICATE !

Terry

REF:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Treadwell


Yeah,  I'm not putting footnotes in my posts.  If it goes over your head or no one finds it funny enough to comment on, ask or let it go.
"Leftism destroys everything good." -  Ron

There is no fixing stupid. But, you can line it up in front of a wall and offer it a last smoke.

There is no such thing as a "transgender" person.  Only mental illness that should be discouraged.

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,895
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2018, 10:50:20 AM »
Quote
Because everyone has grown up in a different environment. People who watch a lot of TV have a different common frame of reference than people who don't own a TV. People who watch old movies have a different common frame of reference than those who've never seen one. People who have read Shakespeare have a different common frame of reference than those who read People Magazine. People who grew up on a farm have a different common frame of reference than people who grew up in a city high rise. I have a much different common frame of reference than my father.

:rofl:

Thanks for making my point.  :facepalm:

Quote
So what defines separates "common" from "arcane"?

Good judgement.  (Or, as I am fond of saying, then defining, "EJW." Experience, judgement, and wisdom.)

Terry

REF:
"REM" = "Rapid Eye Movement" to me. >:D

« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 11:06:56 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,078
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2018, 10:54:11 AM »
:rofl:

Thanks for making my point.  :facepalm:


Sure if you only quote part of my post, your point is made.

Quote
The "What's the frequency Kenneth?" is a common frame of reference to likely a majority of APS forum members. Where do you draw the line for referencing it? At the 51% majority? 90%? Conversely, at what point do we not need to reference something? When only 10% of people don't get it? 1%?
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,895
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2018, 11:35:48 AM »
Sure if you only quote part of my post, your point is made.


Neverthelesss, let those words themselves stand:

Quote
Because everyone has grown up in a different environment. People who watch a lot of TV have a different common frame of reference than people who don't own a TV. People who watch old movies have a different common frame of reference than those who've never seen one. People who have read Shakespeare have a different common frame of reference than those who read People Magazine. People who grew up on a farm have a different common frame of reference than people who grew up in a city high rise. I have a much different common frame of reference than my father.

:rofl:


Hey, I said I was done venting on this topic and I only jumped back in so that Hawkmoon wouldn't be left alone to support my opinion.

Let my words have meaning to some and be ignored by others.

Terry

« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 11:47:49 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,431
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2018, 12:53:26 PM »
Terry has been cranky like this ever since belt onions went out of style.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

just Warren

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,234
  • My DJ name is Heavy Cream.
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2018, 01:19:16 PM »
I saw an opportunity and I took it!
Member in Good Standing of the Spontaneous Order of the Invisible Hand.

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,280
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2018, 03:42:11 PM »
I saw an opportunity and I took it!

An opportunity to do what?
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Angel Eyes

  • Lying dog-faced pony soldier
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,340
  • You're not diggin'
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2018, 03:43:24 PM »

This must be what going mad feels like.
"End of quote.  Repeat the line."
  - Joe 'Ron Burgundy' Biden

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,895
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2018, 04:31:20 PM »
...
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 03:09:12 PM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,895
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2018, 09:57:55 AM »
This must be what going mad feels like.


Indeed,  This will be the second time I've disengaged from this thread.
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Fly320s

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,415
  • Formerly, Arthur, King of the Britons
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2018, 01:19:37 PM »
Indeed,  This will be the second time I've disengaged from this thread.

If you re-engaged, then this will be the first time.
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

freakazoid

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,243
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2018, 07:44:29 PM »
This is my point. You're asking everyone to have the same lowest common denominator definition of what "common knowledge" is and is not. There is no such thing. Almost everyone has a different definition of "things everyone knows" and "things that are arcane". Because everyone has grown up in a different environment. People who watch a lot of TV have a different common frame of reference than people who don't own a TV. People who watch old movies have a different common frame of reference than those who've never seen one. People who have read Shakespeare have a different common frame of reference than those who read People Magazine. People who grew up on a farm have a different common frame of reference than people who grew up in a city high rise. I have a much different common frame of reference than my father. So what defines "common" from "arcane"?

The "What's the frequency Kenneth?" is a common frame of reference to likely a majority of APS forum members. Where do you draw the line for referencing it? At the 51% majority? 90%? Conversely, at what point do we not need to reference something? When only 10% of people don't get it? 1%? How do we know, given that we don't have a standardized frame of what is common knowledge and what is not? I've certainly seen posts from you Hawkmoon, talking about car stuff and I had no idea what it was. You're into cars, so what you wrote is part of what you don't even consciously consider might not be "common knowledge" to someone else. We all do that.

An Internet forum is not a publication. It's just a bunch of friends yacking in the backyard. If you don't know what something is, just say, "What the hell, is that?" the same way you would if you heard it in the backyard while drinking beer with everyone. There was a time (not that long ago)when a US education included a knowledge of basic Latin, so when authors inserted it (and still do to this day)in their writing, they didn't footnote phrases because people were supposed to know them as "common knowledge". If the reader didn't get it, they were supposed to look it up (in books, at the library, before the Internet).

To have to guess at what is "common knowledge" (or not) for every member on APS is simply impractical. Plus it kinda takes the fun out of posting.
 

IMHO... These points are too accurate for common people...

Terry has been cranky like this ever since belt onions went out of style.

"I understood that reference"...

*Popcorn eating intensifies*

ROFL
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,895
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2018, 03:23:57 AM »
A lot of bullshit in this thread.

I point out to those who did not actually do the reading, that the first reference to the bone of contention was the word "Kenneth"  Not "frequency" and "Kenneth."

I again point out that there were 32 million hits on that single word.

I repeat.  If  you want to communicate, COMMUNICATE, dammit.  Why?

Quote
Because everyone has grown up in a different environment. People who watch a lot of TV have a different common frame of reference than people who don't own a TV. People who watch old movies have a different common frame of reference than those who've never seen one. People who have read Shakespeare have a different common frame of reference than those who read People Magazine. People who grew up on a farm have a different common frame of reference than people who grew up in a city high rise. I have a much different common frame of reference than my father.

That's why.

Terry

REF:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

French G.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,192
  • ohhh sparkles!
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2018, 09:14:35 AM »
Obscure references are second only to snark in things that make APS go. In fact, pretty hard to snark without off the wall reference.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,776
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2018, 09:29:34 AM »
Obscure references are second only to snark in things that make APS go. In fact, pretty hard to snark without off the wall reference.
Don't we still have members who have never seen Firefly?
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,004
  • APS Risk Manager
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2018, 10:37:03 AM »
Don't we still have members who have never seen Firefly?

I swear by my pretty floral bonnet that I will end them.
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

zxcvbob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,246
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2018, 10:42:43 AM »
  • If you have to explain a joke, that kills it.
  • Not everybody will get every joke, for the reasons already mentioned.
  • If nobody gets it, maybe it wasn't funny.  Or maybe just too obscure / wrong audience (that's the storyteller's fault, not the audience's) So you might as well explain it.

I got the Kenneth reference and thought it was funny.  I didn't get the Treadwell joke until I looked up the reference.  (it was still probably funny)
"It's good, though..."

BobR

  • Just a pup compared to a few old dogs here!
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,282
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2018, 12:04:50 PM »
Don't we still have members who have never seen Firefly?


Yes   :P

bob

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,280
Re: Make Yourself at Home, Mr Lion
« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2018, 12:27:39 PM »
Don't we still have members who have never seen Firefly?

Firefly is on that new-fangled tellyvision thang, isn't it?
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design