Armed Polite Society

Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: cassandra and sara's daddy on February 28, 2012, 02:43:44 PM

Title: rail gun video
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on February 28, 2012, 02:43:44 PM
oh dear
http://blogs.fredericksburg.com/tenhut/2012/02/28/fire-the-operative-word-in-this-latest-railgun-test-video/

bet that will leave a mark
Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: MillCreek on February 28, 2012, 03:12:50 PM
Ooooh!
Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: AJ Dual on February 28, 2012, 04:39:00 PM
Both customers of mine.

Makes what I do for them in a very removed third-hand sort of way seem a teeny bit more exciting.
Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: Fly320s on February 28, 2012, 05:58:26 PM
What caused the fire?
Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: Nick1911 on February 28, 2012, 06:16:10 PM
What caused the fire?

A guess?  Molten metal arcing off.  Maybe ionized air (plasma) resulting from the arc.  Assuming this is a true "rail gun", and not a coil gun.

Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: Ben on February 28, 2012, 06:38:55 PM
We need to acquire one after we buy and populate APStown.
Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: Viking on February 28, 2012, 06:47:35 PM
What caused the fire?
Overdose of Awesome.
I like that thing. Bit too big to conceal carry it though. When are they releasing the compact version? Will it have the shoulder thing that goes up and a gonkulator? Most importantly, will this railgun have accessory rails?
Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: freakazoid on February 28, 2012, 07:34:54 PM
Our class never got to take a tour of the place, :'( You could here it on base when it went off though. Pretty cool stuff.
Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: AJ Dual on February 28, 2012, 07:59:14 PM
A guess?  Molten metal arcing off.  Maybe ionized air (plasma) resulting from the arc.  Assuming this is a true "rail gun", and not a coil gun.


Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: birdman on February 28, 2012, 08:56:32 PM
What caused the fire?

Hot air.

The projectile takes roughly 100 liters of air and shock compresses it as it travels down the barrel, heating it substantially, the air becomes incandescent as it leaves.

It is a true railgun, not a coil-gun.

The plasma is too hot to be visible, the "fire" is just plain old hot air :)
Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: MechAg94 on February 28, 2012, 09:33:08 PM
Was the projectile wobbling before or after it went through the target? 
Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: AJ Dual on February 28, 2012, 10:28:23 PM
Was the projectile wobbling before or after it went through the target? 

I was trying to figure that out too.

The projectile/armature looks like it's just a test payload and not too aerodynamic Hard to say, but it looks like it might be yawing a bit. I think in a deployable system, the armature that bridges the rails would be a two piece sabot that falls away, with a dart similar to an APDS in the center.
Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: Strings on February 29, 2012, 01:11:54 AM
>The plasma is too hot to be visible, the "fire" is just plain old hot air<

Wait... they loaded it with Fistful?
Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: 230RN on February 29, 2012, 01:36:21 AM
I'm gonna start buying me some big-assed capacitors.

Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: birdman on February 29, 2012, 09:50:27 AM
I'm gonna start buying me some big-assed capacitors.



Better off with a compulsator...for low impedance loads like a railgun, it's a better (and cheaper/more effective) match...see the Texas center for electromagnetics web page to learn more.

A vacuum core superconducting inductor is actually the best choice, but opening switches are an issue....(a new version of which I am in the process of patenting)
Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: Perd Hapley on February 29, 2012, 09:50:49 AM
>The plasma is too hot to be visible, the "fire" is just plain old hot air<

Wait... they loaded it with Fistful?

How else do you get an:

Overdose of Awesome.

Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: AJ Dual on February 29, 2012, 10:35:22 AM
Better off with a compulsator...for low impedance loads like a railgun, it's a better (and cheaper/more effective) match...see the Texas center for electromagnetics web page to learn more.

A vacuum core superconducting inductor is actually the best choice, but opening switches are an issue....(a new version of which I am in the process of patenting)

Seems to me that while compacting the power supply and handling of the electricity is a "very good thing" for railgun applications, the first applications are going to be naval vessels where space and power limitations are lessened somewhat.

I'm wondering where they stand in terms of disintegration/ablation of the rails themselves.
Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: birdman on February 29, 2012, 12:34:53 PM
Seems to me that while compacting the power supply and handling of the electricity is a "very good thing" for railgun applications, the first applications are going to be naval vessels where space and power limitations are lessened somewhat.

I'm wondering where they stand in terms of disintegration/ablation of the rails themselves.

Rail life is still a major issue...but I'm in the process of finalizing a design that deals with that as well.

The issue of power is still an issue on a ship, even with a future "all electric" ship--that railgun needs peak powers in the 10-20GW range (or higher), or 200-400x what an all-electric destroyer could output in steady-state (and 50-100x what a carrier could do).

The main idea with a compulsator would be to have it mechanically driven off the same shaft as the main generator (gas turbine generator normally used to power propulsion motors)--allowing energy storage and peaking generation in the same device.

Brings new meaning to "divert power to weapon systems"...now all we need are shields!
Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: Fitz on February 29, 2012, 12:43:58 PM
I knew when i read the thread title that birdman would end up in here.

Hey birdman... when we gonna get together for beers and consumption of seared meat?

Wifey and I were just talking recently about missing our breakfasts.
Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: AJ Dual on February 29, 2012, 01:11:03 PM
Rail life is still a major issue...but I'm in the process of finalizing a design that deals with that as well.

The issue of power is still an issue on a ship, even with a future "all electric" ship--that railgun needs peak powers in the 10-20GW range (or higher), or 200-400x what an all-electric destroyer could output in steady-state (and 50-100x what a carrier could do).

The main idea with a compulsator would be to have it mechanically driven off the same shaft as the main generator (gas turbine generator normally used to power propulsion motors)--allowing energy storage and peaking generation in the same device.

Brings new meaning to "divert power to weapon systems"...now all we need are shields!

I'm wondering if twin counter-rotating sets of rails, arrayed like two side-by side Gatling guns, and the two aligned rails firing, then rotating out of the way would work to distribute wear on the rails, just like a traditional Gatling gun distributes wear and heat on it's barrels. There's  nothing about a railgun that requires the rails be enclosed in a "barrel", other than structural, to contain the extreme forces.

Although I'd think such a system is probably too complex, heavy, and costly to be worth it.
Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: 230RN on February 29, 2012, 02:52:10 PM
Quote
A vacuum core superconducting inductor is actually the best choice, but opening switches are an issue....(a new version of which I am in the process of patenting).

Do you mean closing the switches?  Or opening them as the missile passes given points in the fields?

I designed, but never built, a tiny one for throwing a 3/8" section of 1/4 inch aluminum dowel, using braided "solder wick" for contacts instead of rails.  But my son borrowed my big caps and I haven't seen them since. I also intended to use the big neo magnets from a voice-coil driven hard drive for the mag field.

If I had got the thing to even eject the aluminum rod, I would have considered it a great triumph.

I was pretty sure I got the right-hand-left-hand motor and generator rules mixed up, as well as "north-seeking" versus "true north" poles of the magnet mixed up, but I figured there were only four combinations to try in order to get it right.

Might have shot backwards on one combination, though.  :facepalm:

Still, a micro-triumph.  Yay, Terry!

Terry, 230RN
Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: roo_ster on February 29, 2012, 03:06:33 PM
I love to see the effect of such a projectile that had a clustering/self-fragmenting charge go off some set number of meters before it hit the target.  Yeah, less penetration for heavily armored targets, but most naval gunfire targets are not of that sort.

MV for comparison:
Rail gun `~3000+m/s
LOSAT     ~1800m/s
TOW       ~260m/s
5.56NATO ~940m/s

Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: 230RN on February 29, 2012, 03:26:32 PM
^ Thanks.  I was going to look those up.

By the way, I dug out my original sketch of mine --more of a schematic than a "design."  The projectile itself was its own "rails" in this case, and current would be cut off as the slug passed the braided conductors (see inset at upper right):

(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Farviel.loesch.org%2Fmagcan.jpg&hash=26e2802498d6ea90e12396831eb2f2fee0eccf2e)

It was supposed to be enclosed in a tube for guidance and to prevent tipping (flipping over) of the Al slug.

Like I say, I probably got the RH and LH motor and generator rules mixed up, as well as "north-seeking" versus "true north" poles of the magets.  And I'd have been happy just to see it eject the slug in one combination.

Terry, 230RN

Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: roo_ster on February 29, 2012, 03:40:59 PM
The answer for fleet electricity generation: nukes, nukes, and more nukes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_class_cruiser
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_class_cruiser

"You can never have enough nukes."
----John Derbyshire

He has shown us the way...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyman_G._Rickover
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F3%2F35%2FHyman_Rickover_1955.jpg&hash=e2260197b0faa88cbe8e3fb5593edc207a782b83)
Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: kgbsquirrel on February 29, 2012, 03:47:18 PM
I was trying to figure that out too.

The projectile/armature looks like it's just a test payload and not too aerodynamic Hard to say, but it looks like it might be yawing a bit. I think in a deployable system, the armature that bridges the rails would be a two piece sabot that falls away, with a dart similar to an APDS in the center.

This one shows what is more likely to be close to some of the final production kinetic projectiles: http://youtu.be/1ix62_oBGtg
Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: birdman on February 29, 2012, 05:14:52 PM
Do you mean closing the switches?  Or opening them as the missile passes given points in the fields?

I designed, but never built, a tiny one for throwing a 3/8" section of 1/4 inch aluminum dowel, using braided "solder wick" for contacts instead of rails.  But my son borrowed my big caps and I haven't seen them since. I also intended to use the big neo magnets from a voice-coil driven hard drive for the mag field.

If I had got the thing to even eject the aluminum rod, I would have considered it a great triumph.

I was pretty sure I got the right-hand-left-hand motor and generator rules mixed up, as well as "north-seeking" versus "true north" poles of the magnet mixed up, but I figured there were only four combinations to try in order to get it right.

Might have shot backwards on one combination, though.  :facepalm:

Still, a micro-triumph.  Yay, Terry!

Terry, 230RN

I mean opening.  It's not a capacitor, it's an inductor, so to transfer energy to the load you need to "open" the inductor, while the projectile closing between the rails closes that part.  Think of it as a power supply, an inductor, and a load (the two rails with the projectile between them), all wired in parallel.  What you do is open a switch on the PS, while closing the load with the projectile.

You don't need any magnets or external magnetic field to make a railgun--the current loop (down one rail, through the projectile, and back on the other rail) creates a field inside that loop--the interaction of the current through the armature and that field is what propels the armature down the rails (it also puts extreme forces on the rails trying to push them apart--like several million pounds).
Title: Re: rail gun video
Post by: 230RN on February 29, 2012, 09:32:07 PM
^Ah, thank you. 

Actually, phase two would have used an electromagnet.  The neo drive magnets would have been strong enough and were readily available and I was thinking in terms of the current phase (lagging) of an electromagnet.  It seemd to me the mag field would peak too late compared to the purely resistive load of the current through the slug and I didn't want to deal with that right off the bat.

Jes' screwin' around, but I got interested in something else.