Reloading newbie questions

[drewtam]

I am reloading 45acp. This is the first reloading I have ever done.

The starting load (which is what I am targeting), is 5.8 grains. Per the recipe I am following, this should measure out at 0.73cm^3.
Therefore, load data says...
5.8/0.73 = 7.94grains/cc

Using this to set my measuring, I find that it delivers too little powder mass. I increase the volumetric setting to 1.00cc.

At 1.00cc setting, I measure out 10 loads into my scale. I measured the mass on the scale. I did this 10 times. Here are the results in grains:
57.5
55.7
58.7
56.1
56.7
58.5
57.6
58.1
58.3
56.3

Minimum value = 55.7
Maximum value = 58.7
Average = 57.4
Median = 57.6
std dev of sample = 1.08
density = ~5.76grains/cc


First question:
Is the discrepancy of density between the recipe and my measurement cause for concern?

Second question:
Is the mass variability of my volumetric measuring tool's result (std dev +/-1.08grains) acceptable?

[Hawkmoon]

I respectfully note that I can't make any sense out of your post.

You haven't told us what powder, but it doesn't really matter in the context of your question. But you also haven't told us how you are measuring your powder. IMHO you are concerned about the wrong things. The powder DENSITY doesn't matter at all. All that matters is that you get the correct charge of powder in each case.

You are looking for 5.8 grains. Your average results over ten groups of ten cases range from a low of 5.57 to a high of 5.87. That's a variation of 0.3 grains, which isn't the end of the world if you're at the low (starting) and of the range, but it's higher than it should be. And, since each of the numbers you show is an average of ten cases, the actual variation may be more ... some individual cases may be lower than 5.57 and some may be higher than 5.87.

However you are dropping your charges, I think your technique needs to be fine-tuned quite a bit. Don't go by the average of averages. Charge ten cases, weigh each load, and if the variation is greater than +/- .1 grain from the 5.8 you're looking for, try again. Once again, with starting loads that amount of variation won't be unsafe, but it will affect velocity and thus accuracy, and it's more variation than you should have.

[lee n. field]

The starting load (which is what I am targeting), is 5.8 grains. Per the recipe I am following, this should measure out at 0.73cm^3.

Grains of what?

Just a stab in the dark -- are you using Lee dippers or a Lee autodisk powder measure?  Tell us about your equipment.  

57.5
55.7
58.7
56.1
56.7
58.5
57.6
58.1
58.3
56.3

So, 5.6 to 5.8 grains, basically.  If you're using dippers, you need to get your technique consistent.   If you're using an Autodisk or Pro Autodisk, not all powders (so I read, gunboard hearsay) meter well through it.  With Alliant Bullseye (which I use for pretty much all my pistol needs), my Pro Autodisk is pretty consistent.

If you're using a barrel type powder measure (RCBS Uniflow or something like that), consistent technique, and not letting your powder run low.  Maybe a powder baffle.  And, is there a lock nut on the adjusting screw that needs to be tight, that isn't and your adjustment is wandering?

If you're in the middle of the published range, that kind of slop probably won't matter.  Top of the range, you need  to be accurate and consistent.

[AmbulanceDriver]

Drew, what are you using to dispense powder?  Also, what kind of powder are you using?  Round, flake, cut rod?

I have a Lee Safety Powder Measure....   And it's got a couple of little foibles - first, it's most accurate when I keep the powder hopper topped off...   Also, consistency of motion results in more consistent powder throws.   In other words, use the same motion, with the same general speed, etc....  Finally, it's definitely most consistent with either ball or flake powder.   Rod type powder usually gives it the most trouble, because the (silicone, I think) wiper that closes the volumetric dispenser doesn't work as well with rod powder.   That said, your standard deviation is approx 0.1 grain per throw...  That's about the limit for a volumetric dispenser.  As others have said, measure 10 individual charges and look at the variation between those...

I also have an auto-disk on my progressive press.   It is *very* consistent with ball type powder in my .45 loads...   Less than 0.1 grain variation.

[drewtam]

The volume is dropped onto the scale using a Lee Perfect Powder Measure. The powder is being dropped onto a dish that is made to attach to the scale. (Tare weight is accounted for.) The scale is a Lee Safety Powder Scale. It is a balance scale, adjustable to 0.1 grains.

The powder is Alliant's Green Dot, which is a flat circular flake looking powder.

I remeasured for individual throws as requested. Since it is a smaller thing to measure, I lose some precision. But as you suggest, maybe I gain some accuracy.

When I took these new measurements I did 2 things different:
1- I rechecked the 0 balance on the scale. I think this needed slight adjusting, so I adjusted it.
2- I filled the powder measure hopper to near the top per a-driver's comment. In the previous data, it was half full.

Here are the new results in grains:
5.9
5.7
5.7
6.0
5.9
5.8
5.9
6.0
5.7
5.9

min   5.7
max   6.0
avg   5.9
median   5.9
sample std dev   0.12

Obviously, I'll need to back off on the volume setting to recenter on 5.8grains. If this is typical and accepted variation per throw, then I might center a little lower to keep the distribution tails below 5.9.

You haven't told us what powder, but it doesn't really matter in the context of your question. But you also haven't told us how you are measuring your powder. IMHO you are concerned about the wrong things. The powder DENSITY doesn't matter at all. All that matters is that you get the correct charge of powder in each case.

That answers my first question, thanks. I'll ignore the density calculations and any difference between my measurements and the published estimates.


That just leaves the other question, is the variability per throw that I am measuring reasonable/typical and acceptable?

[AmbulanceDriver]

Your 0.3 grain spread is a little wide - And yes, I conflated the Safety Powder Scale with the Perfect Powder Measure...   :)  I have both of those, it's what I started with when I started reloading...

Knowing the powder you're using, I'm thinking that it's mostly a technique thing at this point...  One thing I heard suggested was a "lever down to lever down" dispensing.   This is to ensure that the powder doesn't "settle" into the measuring chamber...   

So, starting with the lever down (from dumping your last charge), raise the lever all the way until it hits the stop.  Give it a count (so it's the same "open" time) that's consistent from charge to charge, then smoothly return the lever to the down position until it hits the stop.

Also, make sure that the side screw that adjusts the tension on the chamber is tight enough that it's somewhat difficult to move while still allowing a consistent motion.

[charby]

I am not familiar with using Lee equipment and this is not to be green is more superior than red.

I use RCBS reloading equipment and once I dial the powder measure dialed in I get the same charge each time. I'm so anal that I will charge a tray's worth of cartridges and make sure each is at the same level in the case before seating the bullet.

I also make sure that I run the powder measure the same way each time, stop at the top and stop at the bottom. Are you being consistent with your running of the powder measure?

Extruded powder I weigh each load because I have never had good luck with consistent metering.

[Gewehr98]

Consistency in powder measure operation can often make the difference.

My old Lyman powder measure even has a "knocker" on the side. 

You make a full-stroke powder arm throw, and flick the "knocker" against the powder measure body to dislodge sticky powder in the funnel, and settle the charge in the case.

For pistol rounds, one or two-tenths variation won't amount to much in downrange accuracy - you're not creating sub-MOA ammo.

However, if you're on the ragged edge of excessive pressure signs at the mean charge weight, then you've got a problem.

It won't be faster, but you can do like I've done with my rifle rounds, using one of the various Red/Yellow/Green digital powder dispensers that weigh each and every charge.    

[Hawkmoon]

The volume is dropped onto the scale using a Lee Perfect Powder Measure. The powder is being dropped onto a dish that is made to attach to the scale. (Tare weight is accounted for.) The scale is a Lee Safety Powder Scale. It is a balance scale, adjustable to 0.1 grains.

I use Lee equipment, and it's good stuff -- within its price range and within its limitations.

The Lee Safety Scale is, in all honesty, a lousy scale to use the way you have to be using it. It is designed to be locked in at the reading you want and then used as a GO / NO-GO indicator. While it no doubt can be used without the locking feature to measure the weight of an unknown charge, that's not what it was designed for.

I have graduated to an Autodisk powder measure mounted on my press when I load .45 Auto, but I still use the Perfect Powder Measure when I'm loading 9mm and .38 Special. My charges don't vary by more than +/- 0.05 grains. I load with Winchester 231. I don't know if that's supposed to meter well through Lee equipment or not, but I've been happy with it.

I remeasured for individual throws as requested. Since it is a smaller thing to measure, I lose some precision. But as you suggest, maybe I gain some accuracy.

When I took these new measurements I did 2 things different:
1- I rechecked the 0 balance on the scale. I think this needed slight adjusting, so I adjusted it.
2- I filled the powder measure hopper to near the top per a-driver's comment. In the previous data, it was half full.

Here are the new results in grains:
5.9
5.7
5.7
6.0
5.9
5.8
5.9
6.0
5.7
5.9

min   5.7
max   6.0
avg   5.9
median   5.9
sample std dev   0.12

Obviously, I'll need to back off on the volume setting to recenter on 5.8grains. If this is typical and accepted variation per throw, then I might center a little lower to keep the distribution tails below 5.9.

If the 5.8 is a starting load, then a range of 5.7 to 5.9 would be acceptable IMHO. But ... stop being a statistician. You shoot one bullet at a time. It only takes ONE overcharge to blow up a gun, and it only takes ONE squib to obstruct the barrel -- which leads to the NEXT shot blowing up the gun. Others may disagree, but IMHO when reloading the average charge, the median charge, and the standard deviation don't mean a danged thing. Your concern is that EACH charge be as close to the desired value as possible.

To that end, although I know for a fact others recommend against doing this, when using the Perfect Powder Measure I have developed a habit of giving three gentle taps with the tip of my finger when the handle is at the top of the stroke, and again when it's at the bottom. I do this to break any surface tension or "static cling" and try to get the powder to flow the same way each throw. I can't tell you how the results compare to not doing that, because I have never not done it.

That just leaves the other question, is the variability per throw that I am measuring reasonable/typical and acceptable?

I'd say the variations you're getting are marginally acceptable at the starting load level. I would still try to get the variation down to +/- 0.1 or better if you can.

[French G.]

If you can't get your technique to tighten up the spreads then also consider switching to a comparable powder that meters nicer. I don't think your spreads will blow up any guns provided you don't head to max load land. Also consider basic lab technique with your scale, be consistent, keep it clean. I've usually used a dillon digital and I stay after it, it will drift .3 gr from static, I re-zero often, sanity check it with known weights and try to keep it isolated from the slamming around of a reloading press.

Static cling, this worked for me and I don't know why. I used to have a measure that stuck powder to the walls like crazy, I put a piece of aluminum foil on the top then crushed the cap down over it, zero static cling. As a side benefit it seals the measure nicely.

[Blakenzy]

The powder is being dropped onto a dish that is made to attach to the scale.

That technique could cause some of your powder bounce off and out of the dish. For best results drop the powder into an empty case (with spent primer still in place) pressed against the dispenser mouth, then slowly dip the contents from that onto the aluminum dish.

The Lee Safety Scale is, in all honesty, a lousy scale to use the way you have to be using it. It is designed to be locked in at the reading you want and then used as a GO / NO-GO indicator. While it no doubt can be used without the locking feature to measure the weight of an unknown charge, that's not what it was designed for.

I never could get mine to lock... it has the little button thingy on the slider, but it seems that if I press down on it, it has no place to go into and would snap something if forced...

[K Frame]

Flake powders, especially ones with fairly large flakes like Blue Dot, Red Dot, Green Dot, and Unique, generally show the largest per-charge variation because of how the flakes pack, or don't pack, into the measuring chamber.

It's also why I generally no longer use flake-type powders for my reloading.

[RoadKingLarry]

I started with the Autodisk and Safety scale. I've also used the "perfect" powder measure.
The Lee scale is probably as accurate ans any balance beam scale within it's range. The "perfect" powder measure is anything but perfect but it will work. I used to load  quite a bit of W291/H110 and the Autodisk tended to leak the finer grain powders but with just enough tweaking and fidgit-ing it could generally be made to throw a fairly consistant charge.
As others have said for general pistol blasting ammo +/-.1 isn't a big deal when your charge isn't already at the max load end of things. I'f you're going for extreme consistency, get a powder trickler, set your measure to throw just a tad light of desired and trickle the charge to the exact weight as it hangs on the scale. I've done that with both pistol and rifle loads, I'm not a good enough shooter to measure the difference at the target.

Just remember, this actually IS rocket science.

[HankB]

Even if 5.8 grains were the max load from a manual, unless something else goes wrong (e.g., a barrel obstruction or a deeply seated bullet) a few tenths of a grain over won't blow up the gun; there IS a safety margin built in, and any quality firearm will stand up to a modest overage.

It is NOT repeat NOT recommended to intentionally use that safety margin to make excessively hot loads!

With 5.8 grain loads of a flake or spherical powder, extreme variation should be no more than .2 grains; with good technique, a good powder measure should reduce that to UNDER 0.1 grains, which won't even be picked up with your average powder scale.

I use an RCBS Uniflo power measure for most loading, except for the built-in powder measure on my Dillon SDB. Both work about as well as the other. Don't have personal experience with Lee measures.

[Tallpine]

You can measure tenths of a grain with a Lee scale     

It's been so long since I set my powder measure ....  I just got it close and then forgot about it.  Each charge may be "unique" but I'm just loading target rounds.

5.0 grains per pull:

1 pull for .38/.357

2 pulls for .45 LC (hotter than SAA but well within the margins for Ruger)

 

[brimic]

Lee powder measures work really well- REALLY well if you consider the price.
A good rule of thumb is to use the LPPM for extruded powders and an auto-disk with adjustable charge bar for ball and flake powders.

It's been so long since I set my powder measure ....

When I get a good rifle load with the LPPM, I set it and forget it. I buy one for each cartridge that I shoot regularly. The charge weights might vary a little from lot to lot, but the volume of the charge doesn't.

[drewtam]

Thanks for the help guys. I changed my process so that my target load 5.7grains is locked onto the scale. I check each pull of the LPPM  and will add or remove a few flakes at a time until I get a perfect 5.7 grain mass. It is slow and tedious, but I am confident of a near perfect mass load.

I tightened up the LPPM throw handle, that seems to help consistency a little bit. I think I also notice the consistency improve with time. It could either be operator, or the machine wearing in a little. Who knows?

Min OAL is 1.175", per the recipe. With the bullet seat die adjusted, I am producing 1.180" (+/-0.001"), per digital calipers. Any more good advice on seating, before I get a big batch done? I've completed about 28 rounds. I got about 500 more to go. Should I go test fire the 28 before finishing the rest of the brass?

Does 45 need a tight crimp? No crimp?

Thanks.

[Ben]

Thanks for the help guys. I changed my process so that my target load 5.7grains is locked onto the scale. I check each pull of the LPPM  and will add or remove a few flakes at a time until I get a perfect 5.7 grain mass. It is slow and tedious, but I am confident of a near perfect mass load.

You're probably taking WAY more time than you need to on the "perfect 5.7". It's just not that critical in most pistol calibers, especially when not on either extreme on the load data. While I would take that time with some of my rifle loads to get "match grade", the time cost vs benefit for pistol caliber is just not there. You'll need to consider what your time is worth. If the current measure is just not throwing +- 0.1, I would really look into getting one that does, or as others have suggested, try switching powders to something your current powder measure likes. Otherwise, I may have missed it, but have you calibrated your scale with good weights? You're working with two pieces of equipment, either of which could be off. Do you have a friend with a powder measure and scale? Maybe you could borrow theirs to also check each of your components.

As for crimping, I use a taper crimp die on my Dillon 650, set to just barely crimp for reliability of feeding. If you're shooting hot loads in something like a .44mag, you generally want a good roll crimp.

EDIT: The taper crimp is for .45acp.

[AmbulanceDriver]

Also - is the powder measure brand brand new?  If so - one thing that I remember reading about the LPPM is to run at least one full hopper worth of powder through it - it seems to coat the measure a bit and then reduces static cling and "lubricates" the measure a little bit. 

Here's a thread with some tips and suggestions for the LPPM:

http://www.handloadersbench.com/forum99/15706.html

[Tallpine]

Don't you have to avoid over-crimping semi-auto cartridges, because they headspace on the cartridge mouth?

Revolvers are so much simpler 

[AZRedhawk44]

I'd suggest ditching the Lee PPM.

It was my first powder measure, and I started my reloading days with that PPM, an RCBS Partner Press, and a set of RCBS .45acp dies.

After about a year, I got my first rifle, a .30-30.  So I started reloading for that, too.  Used Reloder 15.

My first 200 or so rounds were okay.  Then one day, I was visually examining the throw level in the case and saw it was off.  I started weighing each charge, and I was all over the place.  I was aiming for a 28.5gr throw, and I was anywhere from 29.2 to 31.5.  Way overcharged, and highly inconsistent.

I took the measure apart and the elastomer wiper had been torn to shreds.

I got an RCBS Uniflow and haven't had a problem with it since.  I also have a Dillon on my SDB, and a spare Lyman that I picked up at a garage sale for cheap.  No problems with those either.

Heck, I even have a 4-hole die plate for a Dillon 450, loaded with Lee .223 dies and sporting a Lee AutoDisk Pro.  Once in a while I go over to a friend's house and use his Dillon 450 to crank out several hundred 55gr .223 rounds at once, and I use this setup for it.  My standards are low for the AutoDisk since this is just plinking ammo for sub-200 yard stuff, but it seems consistent enough.

That elastomer wiper in the PPM is a horrible idea.

[mtnbkr]

I use a Lee PPM to "rough charge" rifle cases, then trickle them up to my desired level.

Chris

[brimic]

It was my first powder measure, and I started my reloading days with that PPM, an RCBS Partner Press, and a set of RCBS .45acp dies.

After about a year, I got my first rifle, a .30-30.  So I started reloading for that, too.  Used Reloder 15.

My first 200 or so rounds were okay.  Then one day, I was visually examining the throw level in the case and saw it was off.  I started weighing each charge, and I was all over the place.  I was aiming for a 28.5gr throw, and I was anywhere from 29.2 to 31.5.  Way overcharged, and highly inconsistent.

I took the measure apart and the elastomer wiper had been torn to shreds.

The quality seems to vary. Some people have a horrible time with them, others find them to be more accurate and repeatable than measures costing 5x as much. I'm in the latter category.

[charby]

\Does 45 need a tight crimp? No crimp?

Are you talking about a taper crimp?

[French G.]

Thanks for the help guys. I changed my process so that my target load 5.7grains is locked onto the scale. I check each pull of the LPPM  and will add or remove a few flakes at a time until I get a perfect 5.7 grain mass. It is slow and tedious, but I am confident of a near perfect mass load.

I tightened up the LPPM throw handle, that seems to help consistency a little bit. I think I also notice the consistency improve with time. It could either be operator, or the machine wearing in a little. Who knows?

Min OAL is 1.175", per the recipe. With the bullet seat die adjusted, I am producing 1.180" (+/-0.001"), per digital calipers. Any more good advice on seating, before I get a big batch done? I've completed about 28 rounds. I got about 500 more to go. Should I go test fire the 28 before finishing the rest of the brass?

Does 45 need a tight crimp? No crimp?

Thanks.

Way too wrapped up about the .1 grain. Run it,  will probably be more consistent than with all the tinkering.

Crimp?  Minimum.

What bullets are these? Plated bullets or FMJ? In general with any auto pistol you want just enough taper crimp to remove the bell from the case. The case tension holds the bullet, not the crimp. Plated are fun, since they are soft lead if you use too much crimp the bullet will squish, the case will spring back and you will end up with a loose bullet and a horribly inaccurate load. I measure the case diameter further down where the bullet has spread it out, then right at the crimp. Check with a case gage, if it chambers, it's good.