Reloading newbie questions

[Jim147]

Min OAL is 1.175", per the recipe. With the bullet seat die adjusted, I am producing 1.180" (+/-0.001"), per digital calipers. Any more good advice on seating, before I get a big batch done? I've completed about 28 rounds. I got about 500 more to go. Should I go test fire the 28 before finishing the rest of the brass?

Does 45 need a tight crimp? No crimp?

Thanks.

Yes go do a test fire before you load 500 of them. Your pistol might not like something about the bullet profile or the way you are crimping them. I just take the bell away on .45.

jim

[Scout26]

Just enough crimp to keep it from moving in the cases from the recoil of firing other rounds.  

Yes, go shoot some, adjust as needed, shoot again, rinse, wring, repeat, until you got what you want, then load a bunch.

Also, you do need to run at least a hopper of powder through it before charging cases.  There's a little graphite in all powders and some of that will stay in you LPPM to smooth it out/break it in.   I've had mine for several years now and it drops consistently.  Maybe +/-.1 every 50th load.  1-49 are dead smack on. 


And yes, as long as your not at the top or bottom end of the load chart, +/-.1 grain ain't gonna matter a whole hill of beans, especially if you're shooting plated bullets for practice/plinking.

[Hawkmoon]

Static cling, this worked for me and I don't know why. I used to have a measure that stuck powder to the walls like crazy, I put a piece of aluminum foil on the top then crushed the cap down over it, zero static cling. As a side benefit it seals the measure nicely.

The Lee Perfect Powder Measure and the Lee Autodisk Powder Measure use essentially the same red plastic reservoir. I put a sheet of anti-static dryer stuff under the cap of each.

[drewtam]

Are you talking about a taper crimp?

I don't know what I am talking about. The owners manual that came with the kit said that the crimp is adjustable on the die, and gives instruction how to adjust it.

Way too wrapped up about the .1 grain. Run it,  will probably be more consistent than with all the tinkering.

And yes, as long as your not at the top or bottom end of the load chart, +/-.1 grain ain't gonna matter a whole hill of beans, especially if you're shooting plated bullets for practice/plinking.

So here's the deal. Choosing green dot was clearly a bad choice for first load. I bought it back in 2012 'cause I could find a few different recipes, and it was available at the local LGS. Now, there are no good alternatives available in all the craziness of 2013.

What I didn't realize at the time is that these recipes for green dot don't give much room for error. For these 200gr bullets, the starting load is 5.8grain, the do not exceed is 5.9. 

Also, you do need to run at least a hopper of powder through it before charging cases.  There's a little graphite in all powders and some of that will stay in you LPPM to smooth it out/break it in.   I've had mine for several years now and it drops consistently.  Maybe +/-.1 every 50th load.  1-49 are dead smack on. 

The Lee Perfect Powder Measure and the Lee Autodisk Powder Measure use essentially the same red plastic reservoir. I put a sheet of anti-static dryer stuff under the cap of each.

Thanks for the tips.

What bullets are these? Plated bullets or FMJ?

Double struck plated, Berry's bullets. 200gr, hollow point.

[AZRedhawk44]

What I didn't realize at the time is that these recipes for green dot don't give much room for error. For these 200gr bullets, the starting load is 5.8grain, the do not exceed is 5.9. 

That usually means that someone was lazy when brewing the recipe for that particular bullet or powder.  The real min/max are probably far more spread apart than that, but the author didn't test it so he's not going to publish it.

I've gone under "starting loads" many times.  Most often with cheap lead cast bullets where load data is sometimes scarce.

Yes, you do theoretically have to worry about "detonation."  But that tends to happen when you have so little powder in the case that it is less than 50% full, and the spark from the primer coats the entire surface area of the powder all at once rather than burning from back to front.  And mostly using fast pistol powders in larger volume rifle cases, brewing up 1000fps .30-30 loads and things like that.

Your components:  Green Dot, 200gr plated (not jacketed), mixed brass.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?100896-Green-Dot-in-45-acp-200-gr-LSWC

Speer reloading Manual #9 lists Green dot under a 200 gr lead bullet .
CCI-300 primer
5.0 grs. for 833 f/s
4.6 grs. for 729 f/s
No pressure data however this is the data for a 200 gr Jacketed HP
6.0 grs. for 957 f/s
5.6 grs. for 896 f/s

Generally you don't drive plated bullets to the same speed as jacketed.  Plated bullets are soft swaged, then dunked in a chemical bath to put a very thin layer of copper on them.  It's much thinner than a jacket.

And, they're soft swaged.  Not hard-cast.  You can drive a big mean sumbich 230gr hardcast lead bullet as fast as pressure will let you from a .45acp.  Do the same thing with a soft swaged bullet and you get bad leading, boil-off from behind the bullet, gas burning the bullet from the sides, and bad accuracy.

5.8gr does not seem like a particularly ideal load for your chosen projectile, and I'd suggest dropping it at least 0.5gr.  Possibly more if you experience excessive leading.

And as for the crimp... barely touch it.  The cartridge headspaces in the chamber on the edge of the case mouth, so you need to see the case mouth when viewing an assembled cartridge from above.  Just remove the bell that makes it possible to seat the bullet without shaving lead during the seating stroke.  That's it.

[drewtam]

The recipe only had jacketed. When I did my research, there didn't seem to be any conclusive explanation which to use, so I started with the low end of jacketed. Some said the double struck were fine to use, others said use the lead loadings.

If I should drop the load, then I'll probably try to pull the bullets to make it consistent. Ugh. Hate going backwards.

Oh well, "Experience is what you get when you don't get what you wanted."

[Jim147]

I just ran down and grabbed my old Hercules Guide.

200 gr lead target load max 4.3 at 805fps only 9,900 CUP

200 gr JHP max 5.6 at 910 with 16,000 CUP

I think I would drop that load a little for better accuracy but I run my 230 Berrys at 910 and 16,200 CUP with a full load of Reddot with no damage to the plating on the recovered bullets.

jim

jim

[Hutch]

Don't you have to avoid over-crimping semi-auto cartridges, because they headspace on the cartridge mouth?

Revolvers are so much simpler 

That's the theory.  Imnsho, the 1911 will headspace by the extractor holding the rim, most of the time.

[AZRedhawk44]

"They mostly headspace on the extractor with a 1911.  Mostly."

[Ben]

"They mostly headspace on the extractor with a 1911.  Mostly."

Okay, that was a good one. 

[lee n. field]

Thanks for the help guys. I changed my process so that my target load 5.7grains is locked onto the scale. I check each pull of the LPPM  and will add or remove a few flakes at a time until I get a perfect 5.7 grain mass. It is slow and tedious, but I am confident of a near perfect mass load.

A powder trickler is what you want for that.  

Min OAL is 1.175", per the recipe. With the bullet seat die adjusted, I am producing 1.180" (+/-0.001"), per digital calipers. Any more good advice on seating, before I get a big batch done?

.45 is pretty forgiving.  Don't seat so high, that the bullet bites the rifling.  If you do you will be disassembling those.

I've completed about 28 rounds. I got about 500 more to go. Should I go test fire the 28 before finishing the rest of the brass?

Absolutely test them before you go into mass production.  My practice with a new bullet or powder is to make small samples (a magazine full, perhaps) through the published range.  Then try them, to see if there's a "sweet spot" that seems to work well.

By way of example as to why I do that, my first batch of 50 .380, I did at the bottom of the published range.  This was about 15 years ago, when I was just starting.  They were so weak that my Makarov wouldn't cycle.

Does 45 need a tight crimp? No crimp?

Enough crimp that the bullet doesn't move under finger pressure or get setback from normal feeding.  You should be able to do this with the seater die.  Lee makes a taper crimp die that's dirt cheap, and their "Factory Crimp Die" isn't much more.

[Hutch]

Aaaand the factory crimp die is da bomb.  Saved a bunch of bulge-y 9mm I baked up on my XL650.  The only Dillon dies I own, and it took a Lee die to make it all good.  Weird, huh?

[Hawkmoon]

What I didn't realize at the time is that these recipes for green dot don't give much room for error. For these 200gr bullets, the starting load is 5.8grain, the do not exceed is 5.9. 

...

Double struck plated, Berry's bullets. 200gr, hollow point.

Oops.

I respectfully submit that you do not have a recipe for "these" bullets. In fact, I know that you cannot, because I load Berry's plated bullets and I know for a fact that Berry's does not publish load data for their bullets, and none of the powder companies publish load data for Berry's bullets.

So what bullets ARE the load data you are using intended for?

[Gewehr98]

Just an aside, but I've run the Berry's Preferred Plated 158gr FP bullets out of my Mk I Desert Eagle at over 1600fps with no problems.

(I can't run naked cast boolits in that gun, it'll foul the gas port something fierce)

[French G.]

I start in lead bullet range on berry's, often end up in mid-range jacketed territory.  I loaded 19K of them when 9mm were $29/1K. Thought that looked like a Berry's box. Easy on the crimp, again, case tension holds the bullet and you will crush it down and lose case tension if you crimp too much.

The plated bullets, for lack of more sciencey explanation,  seem to drive down the bore easier. Lighter loads I'll often see sooted cases where there was not enough initial pressure spike to obturate the case to the chamber.

Glocks and Berry's are weird, I shot the heckout of 115s and accuracy was really good. Built some 147 loads and they went through the target sideways. Shot excellent in a cut rifled gun. Ican only assume that the soft lead bullet was kinda oozing down the hex bore and not really getting the bite to spin properly.

[Hawkmoon]

I start in lead bullet range on berry's, often end up in mid-range jacketed territory.

I load Berry's 230-grain plated lead round-nose in .45 Auto. I called Berry's to ask for load data, and they said they don't have any (which is how I know for a fact that they don't have any). They said to use mid-range data for jacketed bullets. So I did that -- and my trial loads were running about 150 feet-per-second slower than the load data suggested they should be running. I am now at 0.1 grains OVER the suggested maximum on the Hodgdon/Winchester web site, and my velocity is barely what it should be with their minimum charge.

Bottom line: If you're not using the same exact bullet, powder, case and primer that's used for the load data -- you are NOT following the "recipe" and should not expect the same results. Proceed with caution.

[charby]

I don't know what I am talking about. The owners manual that came with the kit said that the crimp is adjustable on the die, and gives instruction how to adjust it.

.45 acp, taper crimp. I think the previous posters have explained it pretty well.

[zxcvbob]

Get your technique down to where you are throwing +/- 0.1 grains most of the time, occasionally .2, and you will probably find lower standard deviations than weighing each charge and getting it exact.  And it's faster.  It's just the nature of large flake powders like Green Dot.

Ideal starting point when adjusting a crimp die:  Take a resized (and not expanded) case and run it up in the press.  Screw the crimp die down until it is snug against the case mouth and lock it down with the lock ring.

[drewtam]

I disassembled those 5.7grain loads, and reloaded with 5.0grain. I assembled 14 rounds (1 mag). I went and fired that mag full at the range this morning. I then fired a mag of factory load FMJ 230grain. Both mags were fired from ~15yds.

Both mags fed and ejected perfectly. No split cases or bulging that I can tell. The brass seems to be thrown the same distance. As far as I could tell, the recoil was the same.

The 200grain plated hollow points seem to impact higher than the 230grain FMJ factory by ~3". I seem to have better group with the factory, but it wasn't a well controlled experiment. I was trying to fire the reloads fast to catch a cycling failure mode.


Any other kind of test or inspection I should complete before reloading the ~500 brass I got?

[Tallpine]

The 200grain plated hollow points seem to impact higher than the 230grain FMJ factory by ~3".

Weird - light loads usually hit low from a handgun.

Your loads must be a bit slower than the factory ammo.

[drewtam]

Weird - light loads usually hit low from a handgun.

Your loads must be a bit slower than the factory ammo.

Do you mean muzzle velocity is slower, or the burn rate is slower, or something else?

And why would any of that cause it to go high?

[Tallpine]

Do you mean muzzle velocity is slower, or the burn rate is slower, or something else?

And why would any of that cause it to go high?

Sights on a handgun are regulated to account for recoil / muzzle flip which starts before the bullet leaves the barrel.  The barrel is actually pointed down slightly relative to line of sight and is supposed to be right on as the bullet leaves the barrel.

The sooner the bullet leaves the barrel, the lower it will hit. 

So a fast/light load will shoot low, and a heavy/slow load will hit high - opposite of what you expect from a long gun.

[drewtam]

Thanks for explaining.

So, you think it is shooting slow, more muzzle rise before exiting the barrel, and hitting high. That would suggest I should increase the powder.

Time to load another batch before it gets too dark to shoot.

[zxcvbob]

It would suggest that, but it doesn't always work that way :)  When you increase the powder, the recoil increases and the muzzle flips more.  OTOH, the bullet exits the barrel quicker.  These 2 effects sort of cancel each other out.  The variable that actually changes things the most is the bullet weight (mass, actually)

Your grip may also be changing with the recoil.

[Gewehr98]

There's really not enough barrel time, or dwell, in a handgun to create much of an effect for sight regulation.

The barrel's too short, and the bullet's acceleration is too quick. The bullet's long gone downrange before the gun comes up and back at you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-jzkDviIwo

You should still practice good follow-through, just like in golf, because you could anticipate recoil in the form of flinch otherwise.

Now, if you want to talk about barrel time horsing a gun around, shoot a 32"-34" big-bore black powder cartridge rifle. 

A 535gr bullet departs at a leisurely 1200fps from my 32" Sharps.  Between the slow lock time and barrel dwell, if you don't follow-through on your shot after tickling the set trigger, you'll go wide.   

You'll also feel pronounced torque along the longitudinal axis of the barrel, especially when shooting from the bench.