Author Topic: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"  (Read 9477 times)

Fitz

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2012, 02:35:38 PM »
it may indeed prove that the cops screwed up.  but it has not by any reasonable measure been proven so far.  the fact that so many are deluded speaks volumes. if i were a cop i'd be more worried that so many believe so easily.  thats a bigger problem than what happened or didn't happen in minnesota.

How has it NOT been proven that the cops served the warrant at the wrong house?

Unless someone named Rafael Ybarra lived in that house, then the cops RAIDED THE WRONG HOUSE
Fitz

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2012, 02:41:54 PM »
heres more on the tragedy in fla

http://www.dailycommercial.com/News/LakeCounty/081412pressconference

a pop quizz for you after reading both stories what doesn't match make sense?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Fitz

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2012, 02:44:10 PM »
heres more on the tragedy in fla

http://www.dailycommercial.com/News/LakeCounty/081412pressconference

a pop quizz for you after reading both stories what doesn't match make sense?

I can't even respond, because your sentence doesn't make any sense.
Fitz

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roo_ster

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2012, 02:44:53 PM »
was that an attempt to show that the cops either admitted it was a bad warrant?  or a diversion from the other "case" you mentioned?

Neither, just an example where it wasn't the dog that got killed during a raid where the cops did not ID themselves.  Though, I can understand where you'd think one would try to change the subject.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2012, 02:49:18 PM »
How has it NOT been proven that the cops served the warrant at the wrong house?

Unless someone named Rafael Ybarra lived in that house, then the cops RAIDED THE WRONG HOUSE

my experience with warrants isn't a great as yours and i haven't seen this one yet. i have seen warrants screwed up   and i've seen em modified. i think the key claim here is gonna be the text message that the cop is alleged to have faked.  but unless you have info i haven't found i am just guessing.

is it possible the cops were that gung ho to get either ybarra or franco?  why? contrary to popular psychosis most cops don't give that big a darn about any one crook.  unless you hurt a cop or screw their wife or daughter it isn't important enough to risk their job.  they know, and correctly so, that they will get you next time.  and there is always a next time.  if they just screwed up as opposed to acted maliciously or fraudulently they have immunity
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2012, 02:50:43 PM »
I can't even respond, because your sentence doesn't make any sense.

rooster post a link  so did i  read em both see if you can find the thing that makes you go huh.  besides the poor kid being killed
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Fitz

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2012, 02:51:42 PM »
my experience with warrants isn't a great as yours and i haven't seen this one yet. i have seen warrants screwed up   and i've seen em modified. i think the key claim here is gonna be the text message that the cop is alleged to have faked.  but unless you have info i haven't found i am just guessing.

is it possible the cops were that gung ho to get either ybarra or franco?  why? contrary to popular psychosis most cops don't give that big a darn about any one crook.  unless you hurt a cop or screw their wife or daughter it isn't important enough to risk their job.  they know, and correctly so, that they will get you next time.  and there is always a next time.  if they just screwed up as opposed to acted maliciously or fraudulently they have immunity


Only two facts need to be verified to prove that the cops screwed up.

One: that Ybarra was named in the warrant. Easy to verify.

Two: that he did not, in fact, live there.


So again, how did the cops NOT screw up.?
Fitz

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brimic

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2012, 02:52:12 PM »
Quote
is it possible the cops were that gung ho to get either ybarra or franco?  why? contrary to popular psychosis most cops don't give that big a darn about any one crook.  unless you hurt a cop or screw their wife or daughter it isn't important enough to risk their job.  they know, and correctly so, that they will get you next time.  and there is always a next time.  if they just screwed up as opposed to acted maliciously or fraudulently they have immunity

All that just to get their mall ninja fetish on.

Edit: What's the wife or daughter thing about? If you mess with their wife or daughter they can send a death squad to your home at 2AM? That would be a lot of fun if that door swung both ways....
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 02:59:58 PM by brimic »
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Fitz

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2012, 02:52:26 PM »
rooster post a link  so did i  read em both see if you can find the thing that makes you go huh.  besides the poor kid being killed

Is this the part of the thread where you point to a minor quibble and use that as justification for the actions of police?

It would fit right in with your MO
Fitz

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MillCreek

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2012, 02:53:49 PM »
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #60 on: August 14, 2012, 02:54:37 PM »
Is this the part of the thread where you point to a minor quibble and use that as justification for the actions of police?

It would fit right in with your MO

if answering makes you uncomfortable i understand  no problem
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Fitz

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #61 on: August 14, 2012, 02:55:06 PM »
It's idiotic that I can accidentally kill someone in a car, and go to jail. Meanwhile, police can accidentally shoot someone because they raid the wrong house, and end up with admin leave.

WHen you make a mistake, and are negligent, and it results in someone elses death, destruction of someone's property, or etc... it should result in jailtime for the cop involved.
Fitz

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #62 on: August 14, 2012, 02:55:52 PM »
Lord have mercy, but that is one weirdly-shaped head.

i noticed that   i was wondering if he had any tats from his last trip to the country and if we were seeing em side view
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Fitz

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #63 on: August 14, 2012, 02:56:08 PM »
if answering makes you uncomfortable i understand  no problem

Point out the "thing that makes you go hmmmm" then, oh Wise CSD!

You want everyone here to play hide and seek with a few news stories so that you can point to some insignificant detail and say "SEE? THE COPS WERE RIGHT"


Point it out, stop being a coward.
Fitz

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brimic

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #64 on: August 14, 2012, 02:57:09 PM »
Jose Guerena who?
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #65 on: August 14, 2012, 02:58:35 PM »
It's idiotic that I can accidentally kill someone in a car, and go to jail. Meanwhile, police can accidentally shoot someone because they raid the wrong house, and end up with admin leave.

WHen you make a mistake, and are negligent, and it results in someone elses death, destruction of someone's property, or etc... it should result in jailtime for the cop involved.

in the world i live in there has to be a bit more than an accident for you to get jail for killing someone in a car wreck.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Fitz

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #66 on: August 14, 2012, 03:03:09 PM »
in the world i live in there has to be a bit more than an accident for you to get jail for killing someone in a car wreck.



In what universe do you live in where people don't go to jail for negligent homicide? Google reveals tons of hits for non-alchohol related crashes where the driver who survived went to jail.

and CERTAINLY cases where the "offense" was not as bad as POUNDING ON THE WRONG DOOR THEN SHOOTING THE OCCUPANT

That's it. I'm done with this discussion. You're both delusional and a defender of thug cops.

Congratulations on being part of the problem
Fitz

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I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #67 on: August 14, 2012, 03:13:48 PM »
Jose Guerena who?

this one
http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/family-s-ties-to-alleged-pot-ring-detailed/article_7aa21b04-49b9-5338-92bb-3092969902b8.html

n April 2009, Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents found more than 1,300 pounds of marijuana at a home on South Sunset Road. The home's electric bill was in Ruiz's name; the water was in Gerardo Guerena's name; and the landlord said Ruiz had rented the home. Alejandro Guerena visited the home several times; Jose Guerena's vehicle was spotted there on occasion; and he was there the day arrests were made. ICE agents listed Jose Guerena as a "person of interest" in their investigation.

The drug investigation was put on the back burner in March 2010 after one of Jose Celaya's five daughters, Cynthia, 34, and her husband, Manuel Orozco, 36, were slain during a home invasion.

The investigation revved up again in April 2011 after deputies were called to one of the Celaya homes. Jose Celaya had received a call from a man named "Stuart" saying there were men with guns on the property. When deputies arrived, they found the doors to the home open, a puddle of blood on the floor and several shell casings, records show. Deputies did not find anyone inside, but they found enough wrappings for one ton of marijuana and a holster next to bloody footprints leading out of the home. "Stuart" has never been found.

The indictment unsealed Friday and other court documents obtained by the Arizona Daily Star reveal:

• Pauline Guerena, Alejandro Guerena, Gerardo Guerena and Graciela Guerena all claimed to earn their living at JC Stables, but JC Stables employed zero employees and earned a minimal amount of money.

• Arizona Department of Economic Security reported zero earnings for Celaya, Alejandro Guerena, Pauline Guerena, Gerardo Guerena and Ruiz.

• Jose Guerena earned $16,000 in 2009 and $54,000 in 2010 at Asarco, but was the registered owner of six vehicles, five of which had a total combined value of more than $100,000.

• Alejandro Guerena deposited nearly $82,000 into a bank account between December 2008 and December 2009 and withdrew $70,000. He told investigators he made his living horse racing, buying and fixing cars and remodeling houses. He also said he received food stamps and AHCCCS, and has never filed an income tax return. Investigators never saw him working on cars.

• Alejandro Guerena was the registered owner of four vehicles, but also told investigators he owned a $39,000 Ford truck registered to Jose Guerena.

• Pauline Guerena took out a $65,000 loan on some undeveloped land in March 2008 and obtained another loan for a 2008 Charger in August 2008. Each time, she put down $5,000 cash.

• Celaya owned two properties with a combined value of $278,000 and was the registered owner of nine vehicles. Seven of the vehicles were valued at nearly $58,000. He told investigators in May 2011 he was not working, could no longer afford his mortgage and received AHCCCS. Investigators found $2,900 cash in a boot box in his closet on May 5, 2011.

• Ruiz earned $3,214 in 2009 and zero in 2010, and was the registered owner of six vehicles valued at nearly $42,000. In July 2010, someone deposited nearly $11,000 into her bank account from Michigan.

• Gerardo Guerena was the registered owner of five vehicles valued at nearly $23,000. He told investigators he lives in Mexico and he buys and sells cars and tends to horses for a living.

• Alejandro Guerena bought six cars at auction on one day in December 2008. On the same day he spent $4,200 at Burberry, a clothing store.

• Alejandro Guerena spent nearly $10,000 at Jared's Jewelry in May 2009.

• The Guerenas frequently bought and traded newer model vehicles with cash from marijuana transactions, investigators say.

Capt. Christopher Nanos, who heads up the sheriff's criminal investigations division, said the investigation into the drug ring is ongoing and charges could be brought against additional people. The investigation into the killing of the Orozcos is also ongoing.

The Guerena brothers cannot be ruled out as suspects in the Orozcos' slayings, Nanos said.

"Our belief is they have more knowledge of that case than what they are sharing with us," Nanos said of the Guerenas, the Celayas and the Orozcos.

While most home invasions involve people demanding drugs and money, the couple's killers made no demands, Nanos said. They simply came into the home, shot the couple and left.

During the course of the drug investigation, statements were made linking both Orozcos to the Guerena/Celaya drug organization, and Manuel Orozco had no reported income during the relevant time frame, Nanos said.

DNA was collected from the scene, and investigators have identified other people of interest and are attempting to find them, Nanos said.

Nanos declined to specify what specific roles each of the Guerenas and Celayas played in the drug organization, including who was the ringleader.

What's clear is Jose Guerena did play a role, Nanos said.

"Although he was a former Marine, it doesn't mean he was out there doing what we expect good Marines to do," Nanos said.

On April 13, the Pima County Attorney's Office began forfeiture proceedings for four homes, five vehicles, $137,000 cash and 11 weapons.

Attorneys for Pauline Guerena and Celaya are fighting the seizure of the property. Celaya's attorney says Jose Celaya and his wife purchased both their homes using proceedings from a wrongful death lawsuit involving their 9-year-old son, Jose Jr., who was killed by a drunken driver in 1995.

Attempts to reach the attorneys for Pauline Guerena, Ruiz and Celaya were unsuccessful.

Christopher Scileppi, who represents Jose Guerena's widow, Vanessa, in a wrongful-death lawsuit against the county, said, "I have reviewed countless indictments during my career, but this is a first," describing the indictment as no more than an attempt "to damage the reputation of a Marine killed in his home by the police."

"There is absolutely no reason to name Jose Guerena in the indictment other than a poorly veiled attempt to disparage him, his wife and children," Scileppi said, adding: "This, after the police barged into their home with apparent little regard or care for human life, shooting wildly with handguns and a high-powered ballistic rifle more than seventy times mere feet away from Mrs. Guerena and their 4-year-old boy."
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #68 on: August 14, 2012, 03:17:05 PM »
Let's see....

We have a dead dog, we have three children CUFFED and one child deninde nessasary medication, we have a wrong address, and a .22 pistol in a basement room that apparently belongs to the person who sleeps in the basement room, who may or may not be related to the family upstairs.

CSD, there is NO EXCUSE FOR THIS.

None, nadda, zip, zilch.

The officers should have IMMEDIATLY left the premisis upon relizing the wrong address. If something made them think "hey, we might have something here." They can call in for a new warrent, but they have to wait outside for that new warrent to be put in effect.

And, under NO circumstances sould the children have been cuffed or much less, LEFT INSIDE THE HOUSE. Even if they had the right house. They should have at least removed them to the backseat of a squad car, with an officer watching over them, with medication, blankets and a CPS worker on the way.
I don't care if the adults where innocent little angels or guilty as sin, the children should be removed from the situation and have their safety and rights preserved, by a third party, until the situation is resolved, which in this case, means handed back to the parents immediatly after the cops apoligies profusly, offer to help bury the family dog and GTFO.
"Okay, um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm angry, and I'm armed, so if you two have something that you need to work out --" -Malcolm Reynolds

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #69 on: August 14, 2012, 03:18:03 PM »


In what universe do you live in where people don't go to jail for negligent homicide? Google reveals tons of hits for non-alchohol related crashes where the driver who survived went to jail.

and CERTAINLY cases where the "offense" was not as bad as POUNDING ON THE WRONG DOOR THEN SHOOTING THE OCCUPANT

That's it. I'm done with this discussion. You're both delusional and a defender of thug cops.

Congratulations on being part of the problem
 

there is more than a faint difference between an accident and negligent homicide. and the percentage of folks jailed even in the ones convicted of negligent homicide is not large
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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brimic

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #70 on: August 14, 2012, 03:22:01 PM »
Quote
ICE agents listed Jose Guerena as a "person of interest" in their investigation.

Sounds like enough evidence to me to kick in his door and shoot anything and everything that moves. ;/
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #71 on: August 14, 2012, 03:23:06 PM »
Sounds like enough evidence to me to kick in his door and shoot anything and everything that moves. ;/

if you get the right job and a warrant you could
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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brimic

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #72 on: August 14, 2012, 03:25:59 PM »
Quote
And, under NO circumstances sould the children have been cuffed or much less,....

But, but, but, they REALLY wanted to try out their Blackhawk! molle zip strip cuff holders....
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #73 on: August 14, 2012, 03:26:28 PM »
Let's see....

We have a dead dog, we have three children CUFFED and one child deninde nessasary medication, we have a wrong address, and a .22 pistol in a basement room that apparently belongs to the person who sleeps in the basement room, who may or may not be related to the family upstairs.

CSD, there is NO EXCUSE FOR THIS.

None, nadda, zip, zilch.

The officers should have IMMEDIATLY left the premisis upon relizing the wrong address. If something made them think "hey, we might have something here." They can call in for a new warrent, but they have to wait outside for that new warrent to be put in effect.

And, under NO circumstances sould the children have been cuffed or much less, LEFT INSIDE THE HOUSE. Even if they had the right house. They should have at least removed them to the backseat of a squad car, with an officer watching over them, with medication, blankets and a CPS worker on the way.
I don't care if the adults where innocent little angels or guilty as sin, the children should be removed from the situation and have their safety and rights preserved, by a third party, until the situation is resolved, which in this case, means handed back to the parents immediatly after the cops apoligies profusly, offer to help bury the family dog and GTFO.

and again you presume that the plaintiffs story is true.  why?  
how old are the kids?
the cops didn't apologize they took at least 2 into custody and convicted one in a jury trial
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: St Paul police in "wrong-door no-knock"
« Reply #74 on: August 14, 2012, 03:27:40 PM »
heres a partial list of the allegations.  some should be easy to prove one way or the other. 
31. Defendant, Shawn Scovill intentionally perjured himself in his sworn testimony on

the witness stand at the suppression hearing and at the trial of plaintiff, Roberto Franco.

32. Defendant, Shawn Scovill intentionally misrepresented the facts of the criminal case

against Roberto Franco in all documents following the arrest of, plaintiff Roberto Franco.

33. Defendant Shawn Scovill intentionally misrepresented the facts in the State’s criminal

against plaintiff Gilbert Castillo when he said that Gilbert Castillo did not state that the

confiscated weapon belonged to Gilbert Castillo.

34. Defendant Shawn Scovill perjured himself when he testified in the suppression

hearing and at the trial of plaintiff Roberto Franco that Scovill had received a text

message from the confidential informant which stated the address of the house to be

raided was the house address that Scovill had placed on the search warrant.

35. Defendants had identified and raided the wrong house.

36. The search warrant was defective in that it did not provide a description of the

targeted house as required.

37. Defendant Scovill was the officer who directed, supervised and orchestrated the raid
of plaintiffs’ home.

38. The search warrant was defective in that Scovill did not provide the required

independent corroboration of the allegations that drug dealings were occurring in the

target house.

39. Scovill perjured himself when he testified he and his officers had observed illegal

drug dealings occurring at plaintiffs’ home.

40. Scovill perjured himself when he testified that he had questioned plaintiff, Gilbert

Castillo and that Gilbert Castillo did not claim ownership of the weapon in question.

41. Scovill perjured himself after plaintiff, Franco’s attorney impeached when Scovill

retook the witnessed stand as a rebuttal witness and changed the testimony that he

provided on direct examination as to critical evidence for the length of time and the

content of his interrogation of plaintiffs Roberto Franco and Gilbert Castillo.

42. Officer Scovill attempted to bribe plaintiff, Franco, to agree to not pursue civil

redress against defendants by assuring him that if Franco would not pursue legal redress,

he would not charge Franco with any crime.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I