Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Ben on May 14, 2010, 04:00:04 PM
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Just great. And on the front page of Fox News no less.
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/06/exclusive-toy-gun-sold-easily-turned-real-thing/
EXCLUSIVE: Toy Gun Sold in U.S. Can Easily be Converted to the Real Thing
Felons, illegal immigrants and all others banned from buying a gun in the United States have a new alternative if they’re looking to get their hands on a firearm: Just buy a toy.
Felons, illegal immigrants and all others banned from buying a gun in the United States have a new alternative if they’re looking to get their hands on a firearm: Just buy a toy.
A FoxNews.com investigation reveals that a popular recreational pellet gun can be converted easily to a real semi-automatic weapon. And while the federal Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is already aware of the issue, these “toys” -- new, top-of-the-line airsoft rifles -- continue to be sold throughout the country.
Like paintball without the paint, the propane-powered airsoft guns are designed to shoot quarter-inch plastic pellets and are generally used for recreation or in military and law enforcement training.
When the ATF seized a shipment of 30 of these guns in October from a port in Tacoma, Wash., it said they could be “readily convertible” to machine guns. But gun experts called that claim absurd and said the ATF was overstepping its bounds.
Now one of those critics is reversing his position, saying at least one airsoft manufacturer has taken the quest to be authentic a little too far.
“The airsoft can be converted to an AR-15,” firearms manufacturer Leo Gonnuscio told FoxNews.com after testing the make and model of airsoft guns seized by the ATF.
Having concluded that several other airsoft guns could not be converted to fire real ammunition, Gonnuscio said he was surprised to find that he was able to to transform this particular gun to the real thing -- and with “minimal work,” because its bottom half, or “receiver,” is so similar to an AR-15's.
To make the airsoft receiver function just like an AR-15’s, Gonnuscio said, “All you have to do is drill one hole.”
And once that's out of the way, the rest is even easier. The AR-15 receiver is the only part of the semi-automatic rifle that is given a serial number, and is the only part that is regulated. All the remaining parts of the real thing can be purchased by anyone – any kid, criminal or terrorist.
The cost of buying the Taiwan-made airsoft gun and all the parts needed to convert it to an AR-15 comes to roughly $1,100 -- more than the cost of some real AR-15s. But someone who can’t clear a background check or has been refused a gun for any other reason could use this method to make his own lethal weapon, Gonnuscio said.
Making it into a machine gun, he said, would require yet another conversion, and the makeshift gun would likely be able to fire only 15-20 rounds before it stopped working due to the pressure it would have to withstand while firing in an automatic fashion.
But as semi-automatic weapon, Gonnuscio said, “It may not last forever, but they’ve got a gun to get the job done that they were assigned to do, and nobody knows the wiser.”
The ATF has made no reported moves to regulate or seize any more of the airsoft guns, which continue to be sold in stores around the country, and it appears to be bowing to critics and reconsidering its stance on the guns' convertibility.
“We’re having to take a serious look at this, so it’s just something that we’re reviewing, and I’m hoping we’ll have some information that we can make available to the public certainly very soon,” ATF spokesman Drew Wade told FoxNews.com.
But firearms expert Len Savage said the ATF is taking a “serious look” at the wrong issue -- or, more specifically, the wrong part of the gun.
The reason it’s possible to make these airsoft receivers function as real receivers is that all an AR-15 receiver does is hold the gun together, Savage said. So with enough gun knowledge, almost anything can be made into a receiver.
“There’s a line of AR-15 firearms out there where the lower (the receiver) is made entirely of injection molded plastic … It could be made of cardboard and scotch tape,” he said.
The most important part of an AR-15, and the most difficult part to replicate, he said, is the upper half of the gun -- which is unmarked, unregulated and readily available for purchase.
“The upper is what contains the barrel, the breecher bolt, that’s what contains all the pressure,” Savage said.
He said the reason the lower half of the AR-15 is the part with the serial number, and thus classified as the receiver, is that it was up to the manufacturer to choose the location of the gun’s serial number. Because the bottom of the gun has a flat surface, it was the easiest to mark.
And though federal law has since defined a gun’s receiver as the part “which provides housing for the hammer, bolt, breechblock and firing mechanism,” Savage says the bureau has continued to mark and regulate the lower part of the AR-15 to avoid confusion.
“In the stream of commerce, you’d have uppers that were marked and regulated and then lowers that were marked and regulated, you could see the confusion on a dealer basis” in determining which parts require licensing and which don’t, Savage said.
But even though the upper half of the gun can be bought by anyone, Gonnuscio still says that banning the airsoft receivers and implementing a few new rules for airsoft manufacturers could be a good start to keeping unregulated AR-15s off the street.
“I would hope that the ATF applies pressure to the manufacturers of these airsoft guns to redesign them so they cannot be converted," he said. "Make them move the pin holes ... so that an upper can’t be attached to it without major machining.
"Fill in some of that gap so that they would literally have to chuck this thing up in a mill and totally reconfigure it to work. Tighten up the magazine well so a regular magazine won’t fit in it.”
And because the U.S. is such a big market for these airsoft guns, Gonnuscio said, a foreign manufacture would change the product if its current design were banned here.
“There are tons of good uses for these guns: We use them for training, kids do reenacting with them, kids get out there and play just like the old days. We played BB gun wars when we were kids and we survived. These are little plastic balls that are shot by electricity or propane.
"So let them have their toys. Just make sure they’re still toys.”
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http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=620795
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpgIWpc3_mg
http://nv.qianlong.com/33530/2009/09/15/2321@5173026.htm
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Let's get the obvious out of the way.
1. A semi-auto is not an "assault weapon." ;/
2. An full-auto AR-15 is not a machine gun. ;/
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I don't know how many times I can jump up and down and say this. One of the M4 all-metal "toys" can, indeed, EASILY, for less than $600, be converted with simple hand tools to accept a proper upper, accept a proper trigger and hammer, proper buffer, etc.
For less than $1k, anyone can mail order the parts to make an M4. A real one. This truly is an issue, guys. =|
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I didn't mean to imply it can't be done. My "just great" comment was meant more in the line of, if this starts getting lots of mainstream media airplay, it will not be good for RKBA.
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How so? Might hurt the RKBRealistic Paintball Guns, but... ???
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I don't know how many times I can jump up and down and say this. One of the M4 all-metal "toys" can, indeed, EASILY, for less than $600, be converted with simple hand tools to accept a proper upper, accept a proper trigger and hammer, proper buffer, etc.
For less than $1k, anyone can mail order the parts to make an M4. A real one. This truly is an issue, guys. =|
I wonder if one could make a functioning 1911 pistol with a parts kit and one of those airsoft 1911 metal replacement frames...
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I didn't mean to imply it can't be done. My "just great" comment was meant more in the line of, if this starts getting lots of mainstream media airplay, it will not be good for RKBA.
My mistake, sorry. And yeah, I agree. ANY negative press re:guns, even this kind of thing, isn't what we need these days. :(
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I wonder if one could make a functioning 1911 pistol with a parts kit and one of those airsoft 1911 metal replacement frames...
No. I measured a wide variety of GBB airsoft "real metal" guns, and the answer is no. Every last pistol I checked was out of spec by at least 0.050" too narrow across the rails, wrong height of rail, etc.
I believe the only reason the M4 is so close is that the receivers are, for all intents and purposes, real already. It's cheap enough to crank out a bunch of 6061T6 receivers for "toys" out of the same molds. ;)
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No. I measured a wide variety of GBB airsoft "real metal" guns, and the answer is no. Every last pistol I checked was out of spec by at least 0.050" too narrow across the rails, wrong height of rail, etc.
I believe the only reason the M4 is so close is that the receivers are, for all intents and purposes, real already. It's cheap enough to crank out a bunch of 6061T6 receivers for "toys" out of the same molds. ;)
Bummer :angel:.
:laugh:
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Also, for what it's worth, even if they DID measure properly, the metal is nowhere near strong enough. The design of an AR15/M16/M4 lends itself very well to using basically anything for a lower receiver. I've fired an oak lower receiver AR-15 before. It was... unique.
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Why don't we end all confusion and just reclassify all AR15s as toys?
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How so? Might hurt the RKBRealistic Paintball Guns, but... ???
I'm thinking because if it gets mainstream coverage, Brady, etc. will have a propoganda tool that fits right into the ever popular "it's for the children" theme. Toy guns that can be turned into "assault weapons"?!? Plus I consider Airsoft part of the RKBA. "They came for the plastic BB guns and I said nothing..."
The argument doesn't have to make logical sense to them, otherwise why can I have a muzzle brake on my M1A in CA but not a flash suppressor?
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=| (http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=154907)
sorry, not able to type with sense right now.
edit: little better now, the link is to a thread on making your own ak from a 80percent receiver. how is this any different from that. could this be someone's idea to start a storm, and go after the people selling byo parts and kits?
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Why don't we end all confusion and just reclassify all AR15s as toys?
:laugh:
I have a friend who calls his AR his toy gun.
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Simple solution: just make it illegal to convert a toy gun to a real one ;/
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Sure they can be converted. With the expenditure of enough money, I could "convert" damn near anything into an M4. Stupid nonsense by the BATFE trying to work their way out of that toy store bust.
Unfortunately, it's stupid nonsense that will likely bite the RKBA right in the ass.
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Sure they can be converted. With the expenditure of enough money, I could "convert" damn near anything into an M4. Stupid nonsense by the BATFE trying to work their way out of that toy store bust.
Unfortunately, it's stupid nonsense that will likely bite the RKBA right in the ass.
I disagree. This isn't just "stupid nonsense". Here are the specific issues with saying this is just regulatory nonsense:
The receivers are perfectly strong enough. (6061T6 aluminum)
The FCG pin placement, upper pins, magwell, and rear tower threads are all in spec.
There is a genuine M16 autosear in there. The "toy" has a legitimate autosear in the correct location.
To make this "toy" into a MG takes the following as an absolute minimum - shim the FCG by less than .050" (this can be skipped if you don't care about the lower surviving very long, it will egg the FCG pin holes out), put an M16 hammer in place of the toy one, and snap on an upper with an FA BCG.
Ta-da.
Not exactly a "toy". =|
If someone were selling "toy" STEN Mk2s where all you had to do was get a real magazine, ammunition, and screw a new barrel on, there'd be no question in anyone's mind. What gives, with this?
EDIT: Just to be 100% clear. These are not "toys". By the 1934NFA, they are a machinegun - a receiver that is in spec for a machinegun as-is, is a machinegun in and of itself. Period. Full stop. There is no conversion going on, they are already machineguns.
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So?
Machine guns and "normal" guns shouldn't be regulated anyway.
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I'm not arguing that point. Strawman argument.
What I'm arguing is that, in the current state, those M4 "toys" are legally M4s. Just because it shouldn't be illegal, doesn't make it legal. ;)
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If someone were selling "toy" STEN Mk2s where all you had to do was get a real magazine, ammunition, and screw a new barrel on, there'd be no question in anyone's mind.
Heck, they already sell the kits for Sten and M3 receivers on Amazon: http://goo.gl/uULP
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What kills me is that this has already run its course. The whole world...at least the worlds of fire-arms and airsoft...hashed this out LITERALLY a month ago. FOX is jumping in late and as far as I can tell, intentionally confusing the issue by omitting known facts that you can discover with a 30-second google search.
Late. Confusing. Sensational. Thanks for nothing FOX.
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Heck, they already sell the kits for Sten and M3 receivers on Amazon: http://goo.gl/uULP
I see wut u did there
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This was hashed over on one of my vet sites back in February. Very late to the party this media source is. The short of it is, yes PTK is correct.
Here's a fun site showing the similarities between the "toys" and the "real thing.." Clicky. (http://www.teamduck.com/Media/PhotoGallery/tabid/310/AlbumID/4090-39/Page/0/Default.aspx)
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With the expenditure of enough money, I could "convert" damn near anything into an M4.
Do you have a tax stamp for that block of steel sitting over there? :police:
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Guns America 80% AR15 Receiver : $179.00
Systema Training Weapon M4A1 M4 PTW MAX: $1,495.99
???????
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Once again, the issue is not COST.
The issue is that a functioning, as-is M4 receiver, which is an MG by the 1934NFA as it is, is available as a "toy". It's simply not legal, not a matter of cost. :(
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It has to be modified. "Drill one hole." (kinda doubt that it is that easy.) So it is not a working receiver.
wasn't cost I was showing...... 80% plus modifying same result..........
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Having handled one of the "airsoft" M4 receivers, to use, I can tell you that there are no mods to the receiver needed. NONE.
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"To make the airsoft receiver function just like an AR-15’s, Gonnuscio said, “All you have to do is drill one hole.”
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/06/exclusive-toy-gun-sold-easily-turned-real-thing/
OK, I will have to take your word for it, since I can't afford one. Just going by the article.
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Fox news is a day late and a dollar short, as usual. Other sources (including those posted in this thread) say otherwise. ;)
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Do you have a tax stamp for that block of steel sitting over there? :police:
Whatever are you talking about, Tallpine? :angel:
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But firearms expert Len Savage said the ATF is taking a “serious look” at the wrong issue -- or, more specifically, the wrong part of the gun.
The reason it’s possible to make these airsoft receivers function as real receivers is that all an AR-15 receiver does is hold the gun together, Savage said. So with enough gun knowledge, almost anything can be made into a receiver.
“There’s a line of AR-15 firearms out there where the lower (the receiver) is made entirely of injection molded plastic … It could be made of cardboard and scotch tape,” he said.
The most important part of an AR-15, and the most difficult part to replicate, he said, is the upper half of the gun -- which is unmarked, unregulated and readily available for purchase.
"The ATF is regulating the wrong part as a firearm receiver, not the part that goes bang," Savage said.
“The upper is what contains the barrel, the breech or bolt, that’s what contains all the pressure,” he added.
The reason the lower half of the AR-15 is the part with the serial number, and thus classified as the receiver, is that when the gun was created it was up to the manufacturer to choose the location of the gun’s serial number, he said. Because the bottom of the gun has a flat surface, it was the easiest to mark.
And though federal law has since defined a gun’s receiver as the part “which provides housing for the hammer, bolt, breechblock and firing mechanism,” Savage says the bureau has continued to mark and regulate the lower part of the AR-15 to avoid confusion.
This. This is something I've been worried about for years. And this is the first time I've seen it brought to light in the mainstream, which could turn out to be very bad news for gun owners. Now, I'm hoping the thought of regulating upper receivers is simply too unfeasible to be realistically considered. But the less exposure this airsoft receiver 'problem' gets, the better.
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The key here is using a part of a toy to modify a working firearm. It is not "converting" a toy to fire full auto. It's disingenuous on the part of the BATFE to claim that the toy rifle itself is being converted as a whole.
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But the less exposure this airsoft receiver 'problem' gets, the better.
and that coulda happened if the company importing had straightened out their supplier. instead in a they sought the support of the public to allow them to continue to foul up. and the gun community rushs to crowd the cliffs edge. in their lust to get at the atf they help achieve a public relations victory for the brady bunch
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Kinda makes me want to buy an Airsoft . . . >:D
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Kinda makes me want to buy an Airsoft . . . >:D
Same here :angel:. An upper can be...procured :angel:.
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Links for buying said airsoft gun? :angel:
put an M16 hammer in place of the toy one, and snap on an upper with an FA BCG.
And those are so easy and cheap to get. ;/
Once again, the issue is not COST.
The issue is that a functioning, as-is M4 receiver, which is an MG by the 1934NFA as it is, is available as a "toy". It's simply not legal, not a matter of cost. =|
With the right tools I could turn a brick into a gun.
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And those are so easy and cheap to get. ;/
Bolt Carrier (http://www.mapartsinc.com/productsDetail.asp?id=551)
Hammer (http://www.mapartsinc.com/productsDetail.asp?id=1132)
Upper (http://www.mapartsinc.com/productsDetail.asp?id=206)
And that's just the vender I happen to use.
I'm with PTK. It's bad that M16's are regulated at all, but given that the are illegal. Then these are too. This isn't makeing a zip gun, or turning an illegal surppressor on a lathe. It's 10 min work with a Leatherman, tops.
Thanks PTK, that's what happens when I try to cut and paste tags.
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Bolt Carrier (http://www.mapartsinc.com/productsDetail.asp?id=551)
Hammer (http://www.mapartsinc.com/productsDetail.asp?id=1132)
Upper (http://www.mapartsinc.com/productsDetail.asp?id=206)
Fixed the links for you.
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would that make a semi? or a f/a
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Full-auto.
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i thought so but my skill set requires asking
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No problem. It's why I like being on this board, having a gunsmith handy to be able to answer questions always seems welcome. :)
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now then, where can i buy an airsoft upper for a M16? [popcorn]
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:laugh:
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I disagree. This isn't just "stupid nonsense". Here are the specific issues with saying this is just regulatory nonsense:
The receivers are perfectly strong enough. (6061T6 aluminum)
The FCG pin placement, upper pins, magwell, and rear tower threads are all in spec.
There is a genuine M16 autosear in there. The "toy" has a legitimate autosear in the correct location.
To make this "toy" into a MG takes the following as an absolute minimum - shim the FCG by less than .050" (this can be skipped if you don't care about the lower surviving very long, it will egg the FCG pin holes out), put an M16 hammer in place of the toy one, and snap on an upper with an FA BCG.
Ta-da.
Not exactly a "toy". =|
If someone were selling "toy" STEN Mk2s where all you had to do was get a real magazine, ammunition, and screw a new barrel on, there'd be no question in anyone's mind. What gives, with this?
EDIT: Just to be 100% clear. These are not "toys". By the 1934NFA, they are a machinegun - a receiver that is in spec for a machinegun as-is, is a machinegun in and of itself. Period. Full stop. There is no conversion going on, they are already machineguns.
so couldn't you just take the sear out and put one in an AR15 and have a functional machine gun?
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No, the AR-15 has a different configuration to that portion of the receiver to disallow exactly that. There is a block that isn't machined out on the AR-15 that IS machined out on the M4/M16. Additionally, the sear hole isn't drilled.
You'd still have to also replace the hammer, bolt carrier, and safety, as well.
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So in essence it's the pre-ban (or whatever the descriptor is) receiver config?
Not an un-understandable "oops" on the part of the manufacturer.
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It's a POST-ban-on-new-machineguns receiver. They made a machine gun. How is this understandable?
"Well, it's just a toy!" doesn't really cut it. =|
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the level of understanding on thr is still low :facepalm:
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Yep, I gave up over there. I got more than enough of people mocking me for saying things are illegal... :facepalm:
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i'm about to post this and bug out over there
“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance – that principle is contempt prior to investigation.” — Herbert Spencer,
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It's a POST-ban-on-new-machineguns receiver. They made a machine gun. How is this understandable?
"Well, it's just a toy!" doesn't really cut it. =|
Because it's a toy manufacturer and toy importer. They, to their mind, did in fact make a toy.
They aren't a firearm manufacturer, they get a set of plans and build an airgun.
I'm not saying it's legally justifiable, but they've been making and importing similar toys for quite some time. Why would they think to check the internal dimensions of this particular model and compare them to the particular regs on machineguns for just another airsoft, which are in general allowed to be FA?
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Why would they think to check the internal dimensions of this particular model and compare them to the particular regs on machineguns for just another airsoft, which are in general allowed to be FA?
Because it was their intent to make a "toy" that was as close to the "real thing" as possible, in this case the attempt to simulate all the outward appearances, function and handling of their "toy" resulted in a product too close to the "real" dimensions as to be legally allowable.
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and their first bozo nono was an accident after the first one its not an accident anymore
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No, the AR-15 has a different configuration to that portion of the receiver to disallow exactly that. There is a block that isn't machined out on the AR-15 that IS machined out on the M4/M16. Additionally, the sear hole isn't drilled.
You'd still have to also replace the hammer, bolt carrier, and safety, as well.
My understanding is that Colt lowers have a block, RRA lowers have a narrow section to keep FA parts from being installed, but most others lowers do not, and will accept FA parts. Is this in fact incorrect?
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And that's just the vender I happen to use.
Well don't I just have egg all over my face.
No, the AR-15 has a different configuration to that portion of the receiver to disallow exactly that. There is a block that isn't machined out on the AR-15 that IS machined out on the M4/M16. Additionally, the sear hole isn't drilled.
So why isn't it labeled a machine gun i all you have to do is cut out a block, drill a hole, and then install the parts?
I remember when I was heavily into airsoft I had always dreamed of taking something like a parts kit Sten and turning into the most realistic airsoft gun, using bolt and everything. Guess I would of actually been making real machine guns, according to what I would call loose definitions. ;/
So could the fed come in and bust down the doors of everybody who bought one?
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So why isn't it labeled a machine gun i all you have to do is cut out a block, drill a hole, and then install the parts?
Well it takes a mill. You have to reshape the reciever. The ATF [spit] has decided that that's enough effort to make it not a machine gun.
I remember when I was heavily into airsoft I had always dreamed of taking something like a parts kit Sten and turning into the most realistic airsoft gun, using bolt and everything. Guess I would of actually been making real machine guns, according to what I would call loose definitions. ;/
Yep, Probably. Remember the shoestring?
So could the fed come in and bust down the doors of everybody who bought one?
If they had 4473's on Airsoft's they'd be spinning up to do just that, I'd bet. As I recall from the PSL welded hole debacle they give you a chance to send it in, then they knock politley. I don't know if anyone ever pushed it past that. As it stands now, How will they know whose door to kick?
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I have to wonder if having an AR and having this Airsoft rifle (say for training, familiarization, etc, without breaking out the AR and going to the range) would be considered constructive possession by the BATFE...
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JUST the airsoft gun receiver is a machinegun, legally. There isn't constructive possession in play.
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I hate to say this, but I think the BATFE is actually in the right on this one (as far as the law goes). Granted, I don't agree with the NFA to begin with, but in the legal framework that we currently have to deal with, you shouldn't be able to assemble a functioning assault rifle from the lower of an Airsoft toy.
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So, is this pretty much how you would handle PR if your friend / neighbor / mother in law brings it up?
"Did you hear about the toy guns that can be easily made into machine guns?"
"No, though I heard about the real machine guns which were being sold as toys."
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Yep, Probably. Remember the shoestring?
Oh yeah. Oh dear lord, :facepalm:
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Found this entry at ar15.com regarding receivers . . . if the assertions are accurate, and airsofts are "illegal machine gun lowers" because they'll accept M16 parts, then it seems that just about all AR15 lowers other than Colt are also "illegal machine gun lowers."
So . . . are the writer's assertions correct, or is he all wet? ???
. . . In years past just about all AR15's were mil spec in regards to the components that the lower receiver would accept. This meant that it was fairly easy to install M16 components in the receivers. A combination of certain M16 parts could allow an AR15 to fire more than two rounds automatically thus meeting the definition of a machine gun.
Recently the ATF relaxed its position but not in the way that most people would like to believe. The ATF issued a letter to Colt stating that they could use M16 bolt carriers in their semi auto AR15's. Here's what the letter didn't say. Colt has made numerous changes over the years to make their AR15's more difficult to convert to fire automatic than any other company. They have changed the size of the hammer and trigger pins, the size of the front receiver pin, installed sear blocks, and most recently neglected to machine a channel completely through the lower receiver in front of the rear takedown lug. All of these modifications were designed to make it more difficult to install M16 parts or parts designed to work with M16 parts.
Because of some of these changes, including the most recent one of leaving a web of material in the lower receiver, the ATF has allowed Colt, and only Colt, to use M16 bolt carriers in their commercially available AR15's . . .
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Found this entry at ar15.com regarding receivers . . . if the assertions are accurate, and airsofts are "illegal machine gun lowers" because they'll accept M16 parts, then it seems that just about all AR15 lowers other than Colt are also "illegal machine gun lowers."
So . . . are the writer's assertions correct, or is he all wet? ???
Don't sweat it. Semi-auto AK (AKM really) receivers are even closer. Instead of a correctly placed hole milled through a forged AR receiver (a non Colt without all the blocks, incorrect pin sizes, and stuff in the way), the AK is just a hole through a thin sheet metal box of a receiver.
The "third hole of doom" in an AK is practically a hand-tool operation if you're careful enough. The AR still at least requires a modicum of machining precision. (vs. say "woodworking precision".)
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Don't sweat it.
Not sweating it . . . it's just not clear to me how an airsoft lower is an "illegal machine gun" simply because it will (allegedly) accept M16 parts, but AR15 lowers - other than Colt - which will accept M16 parts are not.
Makes me wonder a lot, too, about those "80% finished" lowers I see . . . even with no M16 parts on hand, can the machinist who finishes one inadvertently make a machinegun by milling out the lower a little too much?
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and their first bozo nono was an accident after the first one its not an accident anymore
Isn't this incident their first "no-no"? "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" simply means you don't get to avoid sanction, it doesn't mean you are intentionally wrong prior to being informed otherwise.
Again, offshore toy manufacturer, the regs they would rationally look at are their local manufacturing regs and maybe import regs, which may or may not further reference actual domestic FA manufacturing regs. If anyone had even a remote reason to go out of their way to go looking to ATF for regs about toys it was the importer. However, why would they? For all outward and inward purposes they are just bringing in airsoft. Why would they think to look outside that import chapter in a totally different book in a totally different library to start measuring internal dimensions on a toy lower?
This is reasonable ignorance, not even insupportable stupidity, much less negligence or real culpability. That's all I'm saying.
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colt, the dumbest gun maker...ever. a rifle marked LEO only and still going out of the way to inhi, oh that way a PD can't buy ar-15s and convert. got it. i'm getting slow.
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I'm still unclear as to why they mark it "Law Enforcement Use Only" and then sell it to anyone.
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this whole stink started when they grabbed shipments that came in sans the orange tip was not the first instance of that. i think that this time closer investigation by atf showed the previously undiscovered oops. all along there has been the usual zomg atf rants. as well as some quiet impassioned "experts" opinions
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I'm still unclear as to why they mark it "Law Enforcement Use Only" and then sell it to anyone.
Sales tactic. Makes the suckers customers think they're getting something special.
"Oooh! Law Enforcement Only! This will go great with my Ranger SXT ammo."
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oak lower receiver AR-15
New goal in life.
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New goal in life.
Isn't there some sort of rare endangered Brazilian hardwood that would serve two purposes in that use?
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Isn't there some sort of rare endangered Brazilian hardwood that would serve two purposes in that use?
Just as I'm not interested in insulting religions just for the sake of it I'm not interested in wasting something rare just for the sake of it.
Plywood will do fine.
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Plywood works better in this application than solid hardwood due to linear stresses that would damage the grain and likely split wood. :)
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or you could go with stabilized wood. =D