Schools

[makattak]

My son, who incidentally graduated from a public high school this past May, was influenced by both his parents and teachers to pursue other interests than sports lit. and computer applications.

As such, exposure to classical literature and music appreciation, was on his course of study. A number of his classmates also studied with him.

So, as a matter of example, I know for a fact that "enrichment" does occur. At least at that particular high school.

I gave examples of classical literature not studied in school. What qualifies as "classical literature" in that course of study?

Also, what qualifies as "music appreciation".

Third, since his parents encouraged "enrichment," how would things be any different than if he received the basics from a "public" education and then was given options as to further education, whether vocational or prepatory?

[HankB]

Unfortunately, your view is rather consistent among many other people, including those of a number of parents of students who really don't see the potential benefits of a liberal arts education.

I will simply say that without such, it's not only the child who will eventually suffer the consequences of ignorance, but our country as a whole as well.

There are at least two problems with "liberal arts" courses . . .

1. They fail to instill any useful/marketable skills.

2. They are time sinks that prevent one from taking courses that are actually useful.

When I was in high school, "normal" course load was four majors and a minor every year. Four years of English, humanities, and social science were required . . . but only three years of math/science combination. Add in useless minors like music and art (drafting was an acceptable sub for art) and if you wanted to get the full benefits of math and science offerings, you had to take a heavier-than-normal course load.

Looking back several decades, my opinion hasn't changed - the "fuzzy subjects" were pretty much useless - their only existence was to provide jobs for teachers who otherwise would be relegated to the challenging world of food service for employment. (The sole exception was foreign language instruction.)

As for "enrichment" . . . let me give you an example: in one of my required history classes, one was not allowed to cite any work other than the assigned textbook when writing a paper. So if you wanted to learn more about, say, Vikings, the Norman/Saxon conflict, the slave trade, the New Deal, or any other topic, you could go and read about it . . . but you couldn't use what you learned iin class! 

[Don't care]

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[makattak]

Didn't realize that you were requesting a course syllabus. I guess it's more fun for you to generalize and that parents and public schools working together, aren't capable of providing an above average education.

Secondly, not every parent possesses the requisite abilities or gumption to realize that there is more to life than work, welfare, and television.

How many times on this board have we complained of the ignorance of the citizenry of this country? Imagine how much worse it would be if some on the board had their way.

Makattak: You should run for Congress. You would be a natural.

So, the schools failed to give these people appreciation, but we should spend money on these failed endeavors.

Secondly, I ask because when most people refer to "classical literature" aren't really meaning classical literature. They are meaning: some Shakespeare, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, some Thoreau, a book by Dickens (usually just one- either Tale of Two Cities or Great Expectations), Huck Finn by Mark Twain, possibly some Hemingway, various short poems and various short stories. I'll guess maybe even "Moby Dick."

They don't include the basics of Western Civilization: Homer, Plato, Aristotle, Beowulf, Virgil, Cicero, Caesar, Aurelius, Dante, Augustus, Aquinas, Milton, Marlowe, Chaucer, etc... (I'm going to stop my historical progression).

In order to understand the more recent works and appreciate those works (*you know, that whole enrichment idea) people need to know what their allusions mean and what their works build from.

Otherwise, Frankenstein is just an interesting story.

[Werewolf]

I agree that a sixth grade education is all someone needs to marginally function in normal life. Such everyday skills as reading prescription bottles, maps, and newspapers, as well as performing simple math, would on the surface, seem adequate.

While it is not my intent to bash vocational training, what is the quality life without enrichment? I cannot imagine sending a child off to learning a trade, without at least an adequate exposure of more than what one needs to function in the normal course of life. Most 18 year old high school graduates have little idea of a career path, lest a 12 year old.

I suppose I'm an elitist but in my experience neither Joe Sixpack, his wife nor his kids care about such things as Shakespeare, Milton, art appreciation, sociology, the study of history, an ability to write well or read well and all the other things one may consider to be life enrichment. It takes a bit more than your average level of smarts to comprehend let alone appreciate those things. 

Joe Sixpack and his ilk - which in my opinion make up about 2/3 of the population are in most cases quite happy watching NASCAR, football, NFL, and all the inane crap shown on TV 7 days a week providing they've got enough food to eat, a decent place to live and a job that gets them out of the house on a regular basis. He is quite happy welding, fixing cars, working on powerlines and all the other myriad jobs requiring special skills to do. He is also quite happy earning the premium pay that many of those jobs command and deserve.

There would be nothing prevent a child who chooses (along with advice from his parents) the votech route from pursuing knowledge in other fields if he wished. He could even switch pathes if he so chose.

[coppertales]

Politicians, etc, etc, etc, have been singing the same old tune about the public school problems for the last 50 years, that I know of, I am 65.  Nothing ever gets done except throw money at any problem which drives up MY taxes.  However, the old saw, "you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink", holds true for the kids that attend school.  If a kid does not want to learn or be there, he/she is not going to learn the most basics to get by in life.  Nowadays, a big factor in this is parents.  So many of them don't give a hoot and want a nanny state to take care of their kids for them.  Thus, any school problems will never be solved.....chris4

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Yup, public schools and teachers generally get plenty of money.  It's a myth that they're dramatically underfunded.  Teachers are well paid for the job security and the near-basket-weaving quality of their required college degrees.  Most public schools receive far more funding per student than private schools spend.

The problems with public schools isn't lack of money.  The solution isn't to throw more money around.

[Don't care]

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[zahc]

As such, exposure to classical literature and music appreciation,

As a subset of my opinion that there shouldn't be a public schools, if there are to be public schools, there should definitely not be any courses in art of music appreciation, or music. Waste of taxpayer money and stupid to start with. The purpose of such courses is to brainwash the students into agreeing with the opinions of the school or the particular teacher in order to earn a good grade. The idea of "teaching" art appreciation sounds like something out of a dystopian novel. This is more destructive to music, art appreciation than helpful, besides that music and art appreciation have fuzzy and dubious return to society, unlike math and literacy.

The only "W" on my college transcript is a music course that I thought I would enjoy. I underestimated the depths of inanity to which even higher education can sink.

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

Waste of taxpayer money and stupid to start with.

+1
They're a nuisance. It was a memorization of key terms and other claptrap.
"What is the artist saying with this painting of a tall, blonde-haired stripper/nudist on an island with furries and tapestry salesmen?"
http://www.windows.ucar.edu/mythology/images/Birth_of_Venus.gif
NSFW, maybe. She's got a scary growth on her foot, too.

[Don't care]

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[Balog]

Music (as in learning to play an instrument) does seem to have some redeeming value. Haven't quite a few studies shown that students who learn to play do better than those who don't?

[Thor]

I'll have to disagree with you to a certain extent, Zahc. I was involved in music since 6th grade. It was a lot of fun and truly emphasizes the teamwork experience. Music also is a mathematical progression and it's been proven that those who listen to classical music tend to do better on their exams. Art appreciation, on the other hand, was worthless IMHO and it's all left up to the viewer to interpret art. That said, I also took the other required courses. Algebra through Calculus, History, civics, English, creative writing, etc. I DO know that I was required to take some test at the beginning of my Junior year of high school and my knowledge level was equitable to that of a Junior in college. (I was far from a straight A student, too!!)  

Balog, Yes.

[zahc]

I was involved in music since 6th grade. It was a lot of fun and truly emphasizes the teamwork experience.

That sounds great. It also doesn't sound like something the federal government should be spending tax money on, rather, something that could easily be pursued on the dime of the parents. I have a pretty narrow scope for the things I feel that government should spend public money on.

I'm personally a music lover. To me, music, like mathematics, is one of those beautiful things of nature that is not so much created by, but discovered by mankind

"What is the artist saying with this painting of a tall, blonde-haired stripper/nudist on an island with furries and tapestry salesmen?"

That's one of my favorite paintings.

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

That's one of my favorite paintings.

Probably the best one I was subject to, which is why I remember the name.  :laugh

[KD5NRH]

"What is the artist saying with this painting of a tall, blonde-haired stripper/nudist on an island with furries and tapestry salesmen?"

"I like painting naked people."

If your target audience needs to be taught to understand your art, you have failed as an artist.

[Don't care]

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[don]

I was a teacher in Metro Nashville, TN. We have some of the best schools in the nation and they are called academic magnet schools. We also have some of the worst. They are called at risk schools. I have had students complain that they could not learn in these schools due to constant disruptions in the class. The problem in most of the at risk schools is DISCIPLINE. It is almost non existent. Some complain that the schools are not stringent enough in their cirriculum. Not in the academic magnet schools. How about calculus as a senior? How about Chinese in the eighth grade? These are just two examples there are many more.  Unfortunately only a few select students can get into these schools. The rest are relegated to some of the worst schools in TN. The state has taken over some of these schools. The fault lies not in the teachers for the most part; it lies in the home and in the administration. Another problem is that there are very few if any vocational schools in Metro. Not everyone should go to college, but in my opinion all should be subjected to some liberal education. Should someone decide to go to a trade school after high school, a liberal education especially with regard to the sciences and mathematics would prove to be valuable. It is possible to be a highly skilled tradesman yet still be uneducated.

[Werewolf]

I was a teacher in Metro Nashville, TN. We have some of the best schools in the nation and they are called academic magnet schools. We also have some of the worst. They are called at risk schools. I have had students complain that they could not learn in these schools due to constant disruptions in the class. The problem in most of the at risk schools is DISCIPLINE. It is almost non existent. Some complain that the schools are not stringent enough in their cirriculum. Not in the academic magnet schools. How about calculus as a senior? How about Chinese in the eighth grade? These are just two examples there are many more.  Unfortunately only a few select students can get into these schools. The rest are relegated to some of the worst schools in TN. The state has taken over some of these schools. The fault lies not in the teachers for the most part; it lies in the home and in the administration. Another problem is that there are very few if any vocational schools in Metro. Not everyone should go to college, but in my opinion all should be subjected to some liberal education. Should someone decide to go to a trade school after high school, a liberal education especially with regard to the sciences and mathematics would prove to be valuable. It is possible to be a highly skilled tradesman yet still be uneducated.

I am asking you this because you are a teacher.

Background: I graduated HS in 1970. North East Independent Shool District San Antonio, TX. Four 2000+ High Schools in the District. At that time Calculus was offered as an elective in each and every school and the number of students who wanted to and were eligible to take it was such that one year each HS drew lots to see who got in.

Your post above indicates that teaching calculus now is pretty much not an option and is offerered on a limited basis.

What's CHANGED? Discipline is surely one of the factors but not the only. Please don't tell me it's money or the lack thereof because schools back then didn't get nearly the funding (even adjusted for inflation) that they get now.

[don]

Werewolf, Calculus is an option, but I am not sure that it is offered in all schools. In the academic magnets it is definitely an option usually at the senior level. Discipline is the major problem in the at risk schools. Money is not the problem. Metro is pretty well funded and the teachers are well paid. To get into an academic magnet a student must have good grades and be selected by a lottery. A problem is that if a student has good grades and is not selected by the lottery, he is not going to have the same opportunities that he would have in one of the academic magnets. The first rule of teaching is to get control of the classroom. In many of the at risk schools this is very difficult if not impossible to do because of weak administrators and apathetic students. A teacher is only as strong as the principal. If the principal is a weak sister and will not back the teacher, then the teacher should get a transfer. I realize that there are many factors at play concerning discipline and that there are incompetent teachers, but they are in the minority.  Consider this, Nashville has probably the highest number of private schools per area of any school system in the United States with the possible exception of Washington D.C. When these students are removed from public schools and then the magnet schools take more and throw in the home schooled students what is left? There are a few students in the at risk schools that actually want to learn but they are in the vast minority and receive a substandard education. WW, I appreciate what you have written and agree with what you have said, but you have to have taught in one of these at risk schools to understand what I'm talking about. It staggers the imagination.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I took AP calculus as a senior.  I took AP physics as a junior.  This was only about 10 years ago. 

Of course, I went to a private school.  It was an eeeevil Christian school at that.  My school even has a rifle range in the basement, underneath the cafeteria.

[don]

Headless, you were lucky. Your parents could afford to send you to a private school. I filled in for a teacher who was teaching honors english to seniors. I read some of their work and had trouble finding a literate sentence. This was in an at risk school. The sixth graders in the academic magnets could do better. I used to be against vouchers, but have changed my mind. If the public schools cannot do an adequate job, then they should issue vouchers so that their kids can get an education because they sure as hell are not getting it in the at risk schools.