He was a good grandson and was trying to get his life back on track

[MillCreek]

http://www.khq.com/story/21802052/grandmother-of-suspected-car-thief-shot-killed-he-wasnt-a-violent-person

I am going to be interested to see if the Spokane prosecutor files charges against the shooter.  Washington state law is not very gung ho with the concept of deadly force to protect property. 

[HankB]

Headline makes it sound like Grandma was killed: "Grandmother Of Suspected Car Thief Shot, Killed: 'He Wasn’t A Violent Person'"

Dead perp wasn't the "wonderful person" Grandma says - and he didn't stay out of trouble long, since he'd just been released in January after spending a year in jail for vehicle theft, possessing drugs and assaulting a police officer.  Had four previous convictions for taking a vehicle without permission. I'd say all the locals are just a little bit safer with 25 year old Brendon Kaluza-Graham removed from circulation permanently.

Hope the local law enforcement community sees it the same way and declines to prosecute the crime victim who shot this perp.

[RoadKingLarry]

My bet is that the shooter will go to jail. Not that I think he should.

[roo_ster]

Good riddance to bad rubbish.  Hope he got popped before he had a chance to breed.

[De Selby]

Note to posters on this thread:  should you ever (god forbid) be involved in a shooting, just imagine how your posts here will read to a prosecutor or grand jury looking at your conduct.

If the shooter in this case has been all over the net posting "good riddance" on dead criminal threads, I expect he'll be regretting it very shortly.

[lee n. field]

Good riddance to bad rubbish.  Hope he got popped before he had a chance to breed.

At 25, I wouldn't count on it.

[grampster]

I have mixed emotions regarding shooting criminals who have taken property.  I don't think a blanket decision can be made about this.  Circumstances make for critical decisions.  I think each case should be taken on an individual basis when there is no law prohibiting deadly force in crimes against property. There might be times when deadly force would be tolerated in a case like this.

As an aside:  What if the thief who stole a car was very drunk or stoned and would have been a deadly threat when driving or potentially running from police or was a fleeing felon from another crime.  What if the owner of the car had a chance to shoot that person to stop a worse crime?  Or does the victim who fails to shoot when he could, but didn't, and the thief killed someone with the stolen car.  Could the victim be sued for not stopping the thief if he could have by using a gun?  

This is complicated stuff.  I don't know if there can be an easy answer except if there was a state law that prohibited shooting a property thief.

[Jamisjockey]

I wholly support the shooting of intentional thieves.  I believe in the property equals time equals life principle, and therefore a thief is in fact stealing part of my life.

[HankB]

. . . As an aside:  What if the thief who stole a car was very drunk or stoned and would have been a deadly threat when driving or potentially running from police or was a fleeing felon from another crime.  What if the owner of the car had a chance to shoot that person to stop a worse crime? . . .

Exactly right! Criminals speeding off in stolen vehicles ARE a real, clear, and immediate danger to MANY OTHERS, and their crime goes far beyond the property aspects of the vehicle itself. I lost a cousin when she was killed in a crash by criminals fleeing in a stolen vehicle at high speed - if someone had shot the perps then when they first stole the vehicle, my cousin would still be alive. 

[SteveS]

As an aside:  What if the thief who stole a car was very drunk or stoned and would have been a deadly threat when driving or potentially running from police or was a fleeing felon from another crime.  What if the owner of the car had a chance to shoot that person to stop a worse crime?  Or does the victim who fails to shoot when he could, but didn't, and the thief killed someone with the stolen car.  Could the victim be sued for not stopping the thief if he could have by using a gun?  

This is complicated stuff.  I don't know if there can be an easy answer except if there was a state law that prohibited shooting a property thief.

No, this isn't that complicated.  Deadly force is justified (in MI) when it is necessary to stop an imminent attack...

It cannot be used to stop some potential future threat that a drunk driver may represent.  I don't see this defense as one that would likely work.  As for some victim suing the owner of the car for failing kill the thief, I am 100% sure that case would not be a winner.  There is no duty (in terms of a tort) for a person to protect the public from the unforeseen criminal acts of a 3rd party.  

As for shooting a thief, it is fairly well accepted in most states that deadly force cannot be used to protect property.  It becomes more complicated when a thief makes or represents some sort of threat against a person.  Some states also still follow the common law feeling felon doctrine whereby lethal force may be used to stop a felon from fleeing.  

[roo_ster]

No, this isn't that complicated.  Deadly force is justified (in MI) when it is necessary to stop an imminent attack...

It cannot be used to stop some potential future threat that a drunk driver may represent.  I don't see this defense as one that would likely work.  As for some victim suing the owner of the car for failing kill the thief, I am 100% sure that case would not be a winner.  There is no duty (in terms of a tort) for a person to protect the public from the unforeseen criminal acts of a 3rd party.  

As for shooting a thief, it is fairly well accepted in most states that deadly force cannot be used to protect property.  It becomes more complicated when a thief makes or represents some sort of threat against a person.  Some states also still follow the common law feeling felon doctrine whereby lethal force may be used to stop a felon from fleeing.  

When/where the O² thief was shot is indeterminate, as is the position of the property owner. 

Police say Kaluza-Graham had just jumped into a running SUV and was driving away when the owner of the SUV fired one shot.

The article does not make clear if the career criminal was shot during the theft or after he drove off a ways.  (Was driving away, but still at the curb?  Was driving away after he threw the owner to the ground, from where the owner fired?  Was driving away and headed towards somebody?)  He got three blocks before crashing.    Considering the difficulty of fatally shooting someone in an auto driving away(1), my money would bet dude was shot during the theft.

Some states do allow for the use of force to protect property.  The wisdom of doing so surely does depend on the circumstances.  So, while it is true that use of deadly force to protect property is moral(2), it may not be supported in some states' laws, and even if it is, may not be the smartest play for the property owner.





(1) Seems to take 50+ rounds for NYPD to accomplish that task.


(2) In both the JJ "property equals time equals life principle" and in the "stop this criminal before he hurts my neighbors" principle.

[Tallpine]

this gun violence has to stop

How about stopping stealing cars?   

[BobR]

From what I have heard, it was a one shot stop through the back window of the Suburban. The news report showed the back of the Suburban, when I saw it I kind of knew the shooter shot through the window, really didn't need the news. Luck, either good or bad, was probably a very good part of the shooting. The guy had started his car and was letting it warm up prior to leaving in the morning, it was in the mid 20's that morning. While there are a few RCWs (Revised Code of Washington) that will probably come into play, this may end up being the most important one:

RCW 9A.16.050  Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.

Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his or her presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

(2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his or her presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he or she is.
[2011 c 336 § 354; 1975 1st ex.s. c 260 § 9A.16.050.]

I am hoping this goes well for the shooter, public sentiment seems to be running very strongly in favor of the action he took. We have had escalating crimes here, especially property crimes, and very little police action to stop, or investigate.

bob

[AJ Dual]

I wholly support the shooting of intentional thieves.  I believe in the property equals time equals life principle, and therefore a thief is in fact stealing part of my life.

That's what I came to post. I would probably follow my state's laws on the matter to avoid legal complications, however, that's certainly how I feel about it too.

[Viking]

What JamisJockey and AJ said. My stuff = time spent working to get money to buy it = if someone steals from me, they're taking a part of my life. *expletive deleted*ck that.

[MechAg94]

What JamisJockey and AJ said. My stuff = time spent working to get money to buy it = if someone steals from me, they're taking a part of my life. *expletive deleted* that.

Scum bags who have no respect for other people's belongings end up having little respect for other people's lives also, especially when they notice there are few if any consequences for it. 

His license was revoked when he spent a year in jail on charges of vehicle theft, possessing drugs and assaulting a police officer.  He was just released in January, and was applying for jobs.  Before that, he'd been convicted four times for taking a vehicle without permission.

Kaluza admits her grandson made a few mistakes the last few years, but says he didn't deserve to die.

Horse stealing used to be a hanging offense. 

[G_P]

First off every time some person with multiple convictions gets shot the family always says "he was harmless" "he was a great person". Even the families of murderers say it.

Second if more thieves got shot there would be a lot less thievery. If you come on private property and steal you are one step away from home invasion.

[Tallpine]

What JamisJockey and AJ said. My stuff = time spent working to get money to buy it = if someone steals from me, they're taking a part of my life. *expletive deleted* that.

I agree with the sentiment, but I'm not sure that I would shoot someone in the process of stealing my Suburban. 

I would really hate to shoot a hole in the back window 

[Viking]

Horse stealing used to be a hanging offense.

The same could apply now - steal someone's car, and suddenly they might find themself out of a job because they have no other means of transportation (like in the old days, when a sudden lack of horse meant no transportation and no way to use farming equipment). I can live with car thieves being treated the same as horse thieves.

[dm1333]

Ann Kaluza says he was a wonderful grandson, and not a violent person.

His license was revoked when he spent a year in jail on charges of vehicle theft, possessing drugs and assaulting a police officer.  He was just released in January, and was applying for jobs.  Before that, he'd been convicted four times for taking a vehicle without permission.

"I'd like it all undone, I'd like my grandson back," Kaluza said tearfully.  "I don't wish ill will on people, but this gun violence has to stop."

I don't even know what to say to all of that.

[Hawkmoon]

I wholly support the shooting of intentional thieves.  I believe in the property equals time equals life principle, and therefore a thief is in fact stealing part of my life.

I agree. How much does an SUV cost these days? $30,000? $40,000? More? How long does an ordinary person have to work to bring home $30,000 or $40,000? Don't forget, this year we worked until April 13 just to pay our Federal and state taxes, so you don't even begin paying for the SUV until after April 13. So, yes ... stealing someone's property is truly stealing a part of their life. Don't talk to me about insurance. I've been there. Insurance never really "makes you whole."

"I'd like it all undone, I'd like my grandson back," Kaluza said tearfully.  "I don't wish ill will on people, but this gun violence has to stop."

So the dude was twenty-five years old, had five convictions for car theft (isn't it interesting how the article called it "taking a vehicle without permission"), had been out of prison for two whole months, and was up to his old tricks. Sounds to me like Granny didn't exactly do a bang-up job of raising the guy.

His license was revoked when he spent a year in jail on charges of vehicle theft, possessing drugs and assaulting a police officer.  He was just released in January, and was applying for jobs.  Before that, he'd been convicted four times for taking a vehicle without permission.

[BobR]

Today's Developments.

SPOKANE, Wash. (AP) - Court documents identify the Spokane man who shot and killed an alleged car thief Monday as 56-year-old Gail Herbert Gerlach.

Court documents reveal that Gerlach told authorities he saw his car being driven away and fired at the vehicle. The bullet struck 25-year-old Brendon Kaluza-Graham in the head.

Gerlach has not been charged with a crime, but if the shooting is found to be unjustified he could be charged with murder or manslaughter.

Court records say Gerlach told investigators he saw Kaluza-Graham raise his arm, saw what he thought was a gun and thought he was going to be shot. So he took his gun and shot one time. Kaluza-Graham was found dead inside the vehicle, two blocks from where it was stolen.

 Police found no gun in the vehicle.

Still kind of up in the air as to what the prosecutor is going to do. I do know the shooter has lawyered up, but, he did do some talking before that happened.

bob

[vaskidmark]

Except in Texas the use of deadly force in defense of property is pretty much a no-go.  (And Texas only allows it in the nighttime.)

Having passed that hurdl;e with relative ease, we get to

His license was revoked when he spent a year in jail on charges of vehicle theft, possessing drugs and assaulting a police officer.  He was just released in January, and was applying for jobs.  Before that, he'd been convicted four times for taking a vehicle without permission.
 
Kaluza admits her grandson made a few mistakes the last few years,

"A few" mistakres?  I count seven - five of which were practice runs for this attempt.

Not a violent person?  Gawd help me then, because I'd hate to see what she considers "violent".

He can call and say "I love you, grandma" all he wants, and rake her pine needles till the cows decide to leave home again.  That does not make him a productive member of society.  For all intesive porpoises   he is a career criminal.  I do not approve of how his career was ended, but it seems from many years of contact with that population that the majority of them wind up doing life on the installment plan or suddenly being made redundant with extreme prejudice.

If both sets of grandparents were active in raising him because he was born to 16-year old parents, there just might be a clue that neither set of grandparents has a good grasp on that whole parenting thing.  (Yes, I know all too well that in spite of doing everything you can to turn them out as productive members of society they can end up fouled up - the Former Daughter is my own shining example of utter failure in spite of everything.)

No matter how this plays out for the shooter it is not going to be what you might call a positive and enjoyable experience.

stay safe.

[BobR]

And from another, more complete source:

The warrant was used to search Gerlach's stolen Chevy Suburban March 25. The items seized by detectives include the headrest that the bullet fired from Gerlach's gun went through before striking 25-year-old Brendon Kaluza-Graham in the head. While detectives found several tools that are commonly used by car thieves, no weapons were recovered from the SUV.

The search warrant, signed by Detective Neal Gallion, shows that he is investigating the crime of 2nd Degree Murder, though Gerlach has not actually been charged with a crime at this point.

http://www.kxly.com/news/spokane-news/Man-involved-in-car-theft-shooting-identified/-/101214/19491504/-/15ahf34/-/index.html

No matter how this plays out for the shooter it is not going to be what you might call a positive and enjoyable experience.

Isn't that the truth.

For all intesive porpoises   he is a career criminal.

His court case records go back to 2004, which would have made him 17. An 8 year criminal history when you are only 25 did not bode well for him becoming a productive member of society.

1   Kaluza-graham, Brendon Tyler
Defendant    Spokane County Dist   7Y5007476   10-11-2007
2   Kaluza-graham, Brendon Tyler
Defendant    Spokane Municipal   B00052626   03-22-2006
3   Kaluza-graham, Brendon Tyler
Defendant    Spokane Municipal   B00047272   04-18-2006
4   Kaluza-graham, Brendon Tyler
Defendant    Spokane Municipal   B00074670   10-13-2008
5   Kaluza-graham, Brendon Tyler
Defendant    Spokane Municipal   U00098599   10-30-2008
6    Kaluza-graham, Brendon Tyler
Juvenile Respondent    Spokane Superior   04-8-00036-6      01-09-2004
7   Kaluza-graham, Brendon Tyler
Defendant    Spokane Municipal   B00075646   10-30-2008
8   Kaluza-graham, Brendon Tyler
Defendant    Spokane Municipal   2Z0444275   10-16-2012
9   Kaluza-graham, Brendon Tyler
Defendant    Spokane Municipal   N00003156   03-01-2010
10   Kaluza-graham, Brendon Tyler
Defendant    Spokane Municipal   U00098659   10-13-2008

bob

[BobR]

Note to posters on this thread:  should you ever (god forbid) be involved in a shooting, just imagine how your posts here will read to a prosecutor or grand jury looking at your conduct.

If the shooter in this case has been all over the net posting "good riddance" on dead criminal threads, I expect he'll be regretting it very shortly.

And it starts.

Gerlach has been vocal on his social media accounts about his support of the Second Amendment.

In his biography on his personal Twitter account, Gerlach describes himself as a “right-wing conservative.”

In a Facebook post in Janurary, Gerlach wrote “To all my new friends, A militia must be prepared today, tomorrow and forever!”

Kaluza-Graham died from a single gunshot wound after driving the Chevy Suburban about two blocks and into a garage.

Gerlach’s publicly available social media posts include a slew of references to gun rights.

Another January post on his Facebook was a photo of a man holding a gun and said “I don’t register my 1st Amendment rights and I won’t register my 2nd Amendment rights either.”

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2013/mar/27/police-id-man-who-shot-car-thief/

In this day and age, I would bet one of the first places police look is social media sites, and if they can find them, public posting anywhere on the net.

bob