Vaccinations

[zahc]

Now, I think vaccines sound like a pretty neat thing, because who wants to die from a preventable disease? But, the vaccination schedule is honestly crazy. There are dozens of vaccines, and a lot of people question if it's a great idea to shoot up kids with all this while they are only a few weeks/months old. Of course there are some people who insist that vaccines cause autism but I just don't know. I understand the herd immunity arguments, but maybe there is a middle ground between 'all vaccines cause autism' and 'any vaccine anyone invents ever is ok to squirt in my kid'. What do you think? Do you just vaccinate your kids with whatever the medical field comes up with? I'm trying to Do The Research, but it's hard to find info in the middle between the 'All vaccines cause autism' people and the 'if doctors think it's a good idea, it must be a good idea' people.

[BobR]

If you will do a little research, you will find that the study that linked MMR to autism was scientific misconduct at its best.

IIRC, most claims of autism and vaccinations were related to the use of mercury as a preservative in the vaccines. As time goes on, the use of thimerosal is becoming less and less.

Vaccines can prevent death or disability, not only for children but throughout the life span. Right now we are immunizing elderly adults for pertussis, by way of a Tdap (Tetnus,diptheria, Pertussis) because of the pertussis epidemic in our little corner of the world.

Letting a kid play on a farm, in the dirt, every now and then is probably a good thing also.


bob

[AmbulanceDriver]

Unfortunately, the "all vaccines cause autism" crowd is unusually vocal, and impossible to dissuade with, you know, actual *facts*.  And the link was actually supposedly only between the MMR vaccine (measles, mumps, rubella) and autism.   The so called "research" into this was debunked pretty thoroughly, to the point that the Lancet actually retracted the study it had published in '98 after reviewing the so called scientist behind the research was, shall we say, a little *sloppy* with his methods, and there's even now a new report that states his research was outright fraudulent.  Little more info here:  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/10/AR2011011005017.html

All vaccines carry risk.   This is true.  However, as has been evidenced by the recent whooping cough outbreak here in the PNW, it's arguable that the risk is significantly outweighed by the reward.   There have been over 3,000 cases of whooping cough in Washington state alone in the last few months.  Some have been fatal.  But there is a vaccine against it.  Polio has been nearly eradicated, if not completely so.    Other diseases are nearly unheard of today, due to vaccinations.  And not just childhood diseases.  How many cases of tetanus do we hear about here in the US?  

We don't have kids yet, but likely will follow most, if not all of the "recommended" schedule.  Not only that, but we're heading to Brazil next month, and prior to going we're both getting yellow fever vaccines, as well as a couple of other preventative (typhoid, possibly Hep A for both of us, and Hep B for SWMBO - I already have had the whole Hep B series due to my work) vaccines. There are risks with all of these vaccines.  The travel doc warned us that some people do develop symptoms with the yellow fever vaccine, and some whose immune system is weaker than others have developed the full disease, and of course some of those have died.  But I'd rather take the small chance of even developing some symptoms (flu-like symptoms for about a week) than getting snacked on by a mosquito during our trip and developing the full on disease.  

TL;DR:  MMR/autism link debunked pretty thoroughly.  Vaccines benefit outweighs risk.  :)

[AmbulanceDriver]

Bob touches on another point that I really like to point out.   The fascination with keeping kids in a sterile bubble is actually a Bad Thing.   I can't remember the study, but a few years ago during my virology class, there was a study we reviewed that showed that the more kids (young kids, specifically) played in the dirt, grass, and just outside in general, the stronger their immune systems appeared to be, and the fewer allergies they seem to have. 

[cordex]

We asked our doc about which ones he thought were really necessary and followed his recommendations.  We're not giving our daughter everything, but we are giving the important ones.  We hope.

[Tallpine]

Bob touches on another point that I really like to point out.   The fascination with keeping kids in a sterile bubble is actually a Bad Thing.   I can't remember the study, but a few years ago during my virology class, there was a study we reviewed that showed that the more kids (young kids, specifically) played in the dirt, grass, and just outside in general, the stronger their immune systems appeared to be, and the fewer allergies they seem to have. 

Also better for them pyschologically. 

Some people were horrifed that we let our three year olds play in a three foot wide, six inch deep ditch.  We were keeping an eye on them just in case, but the survival urge is strong enough not to just lay face down and drown. 

There does seem to be an epidemic of autism over the past several decades.  If not the vaccines, then what is causing it...?  Has anyone attempted to make a proper study of cause and/or correlation

[RoadKingLarry]

The concept of vaccination is a pretty good idea and has been known for longer than most people realize.
The advent of modern vaccines changed the world for the better but sometimes I wonder if some of the newer products have been tested as thouroughly as they could have been.
There was quite a bit of buzz about all the vaccines given immediately prior to the 1st gulf war being at least partly responsible for Gulf War Syndrome.

[Nick1911]

Vaccinations rock.

I believe that the scientific consensus generally shows vaccines to be very safe.  I maintain mine up to date, just got a TDAP booster actually.  Hell, I'd vaccinate myself against other stuff like Lyme disease and smallpox.  Unfortunately stupid people killed the former, and the government seems to require you have a good reason for the latter.

We have one of the more stringent drug approval processes in the world here.  While this does tend to make drugs more expensive for Americans, it also generally means the things we're getting are well studied and safe.  Personally, I would have no problem at all allowing my child to be vaccinated with any established, commercially avaliable, doctor recommended vaccine.

[roo_ster]

Every medical procedure, every shot is a roll of the dice.  But, so is the probability of contracting a disease.  In almost every case, the former risk is smaller than the latter risk.

We give our kids every vaccine that has been shown to be effective and where the risk factors are small.  Which means damn near every single one.

I think most folk are ignorant just how many people died from infectious diseases (that we now have vacs against) in times past. 

We are importing un-hygenic, ignorant, un-vaccinated 3rd world illegal aliens by the millions.  Not vaccinating you & yours against these two-legged disease vectors is unwise.

Which reminds me, I think I am due for new/boosters of some of the more exotic vacs I got while in the service.  Never know when some plague-infected dude is going to deplane at the airport and cause an outbreak in the city.

http://www.vaccines.mil/documents/480immunization_list.pdf

[BlueStarLizzard]

I had needed a tetnis shot for a long while. Kept telling the doctors and they kept forgetting. Last time I finally was like "people I *expletive deleted*ing WORK with animals that try to bite me and around metel fencing which i've managed to snag myself on regularly. Please, for the love of all that's holy, give me the darn shot!"
I also wanted the prutussis one since my boss had her baby and I knew I was going to be around the baby a lot, and I wanted it because, while i'm unlikely to get very ill from whopping cough, I didn't want to catch it and give it to the baby. I also had a flu shot back when my boss was first diagnoised with Lupis, not becaus I was worried about getting sick, but because I didn't want my boss to get sick.
When the doctor was talking about the TDAP he did say they wanted ANYONE who spent lots of time around babie, parents, family and caregivers, to go ahead and get it, so they won't pass the virus to a baby who would get very sick.
I think it's a good thing for people to be vaccinated, not just for their own health, but for the sake of others. I know I have a pretty darn robust immune system and stuff like the flu or whooping cough is probably not going to do more then knock me off my feet for a few days, but these things could really hurt some people I care about, who arn't as lucky in the immune system department, and I'm perfectly willing to take a couple shots that won't hurt me to ensure their safety.

I'm pretty cool with vaccines. I think they are a darn good thing. The only thing I dislike is I know that vetrinarians follow a immunisation protical that put money in their pockets, rather then the best intrest of the animal, and I worry that the human health care system may be willing to go in the same direction. I think, if I had a child, I would also do some research and try to ensure that all the immunizations given are nessasary and the protocal followed is the one based on the science, not money or politics.
I also know that if I had a kid, I would be wary of sending him/her to schools/playgroups/activities with other kids if the other kids wern't given basic vaccines. The little buggers pass around germs like people pass food around the Thanksgiving dinner table, and doing so with germs that can cause serious health risks is just a recipe for disaster.

[French G.]

I got smallpox vaccine, not many of us young'uns can say that. Happy to get it, I don't care for the official line that it is eradicated except for research stocks. Loved getting my Hep A and B shots, eased some of my mind concerning foreign travel. Hep C, scary stuff though.

Was not too happy on the anthrax vaccine, wouldn't want to get a weaponized strain mind you, but I was pretty not okay for a long time after that vaccine. Fatigue, skin problems I never previously had at the injection site, yay.

Other than that, kid gets everything. She lives in a hotbed of religious and/or ignorance based vaccine rejectionists who raise up happy little self propelled vectors. 

[RevDisk]

Hell, I'd vaccinate myself against other stuff like Lyme disease and smallpox.  Unfortunately stupid people killed the former, and the government seems to require you have a good reason for the latter.

Ayep. And now I have Lyme disease because of those stupid people. It's not that bad because I caught it early and treated it. Allegedly chronic Lyme disease is either a myth or very rare. Hopefully so.

Because if not, I might have a word with those folks.

[brimic]

ntxt

[zxcvbob]

I think they may be hitting babies with too much all at once with the combo vaccines; might be better to spread them out a little -- use combos for booster shots.  And I'm not sure the chicken pox vaccine is worthwhile.  Expect to see *lots* more cases of shingles in the next few decades as chickenpox gets more rare but is not eradicated.

They also rushed the H1N1 flu vaccine a couple of years ago.

Other than that, I'm for them.  (this reminds me, I need to see how the Red Cross measles eradication project is going and maybe make a donation)

[lupinus]

I'm a vaccine minimalist. I am happy to get in line for vaccines for anything likely to kill me or at least make me seriously ill but don't bother beyond that.

[Balog]

We're vaccinating our daughter for everything except the Hep... B? C? one of those anyway. It's a blood borne pathogen, so there is a small risk that she'll step on a used needle or get sexually assaulted or something. But my wife was just upset at the idea of vaccinating a baby for an STD, and I can't say I blame her.

[BlueStarLizzard]

We're vaccinating our daughter for everything except the Hep... B? C? one of those anyway. It's a blood borne pathogen, so there is a small risk that she'll step on a used needle or get sexually assaulted or something. But my wife was just upset at the idea of vaccinating a baby for an STD, and I can't say I blame her.

I think i'd be more anal about getting those types of vaccines. Blood born pathigans scare the bejesus out of me.  they may be more difficult to spread, but I don't know of any that arn't a life long case of nasty once you get them.

[lupinus]

We're vaccinating our daughter for everything except the Hep... B? C? one of those anyway. It's a blood borne pathogen, so there is a small risk that she'll step on a used needle or get sexually assaulted or something. But my wife was just upset at the idea of vaccinating a baby for an STD, and I can't say I blame her.

On a non porous surface that isn't properly disinfected HBV is viable for 7-14 days outside of the body, and it's a pathogen that is often pretty concentrated within infectious fluid. Still needs an entry point but it's not a virus that dies off quickly unless properly disinfected.

[brimic]

We're vaccinating our daughter for everything except the Hep... B? C?

I've had the hep A&B vaccination regimen with a former employer where I was on the ERT/First responder team.

I would recommend them to everyone- Heps are a heck of a lot more scary than HIV, more common, and a lot easier to catch.

[Balog]

Look, if I were a single parent she'd be getting it. But her mom isn't comfortable with it (not yet anyway) so... I think she'll be ok with it eventually, but not worth the deathmatch right now.

[Nick1911]

I will say this: I don't bother with yearly influenze vaccs.  It's minor enough that, while uncomfortable, it's not going to kill me.  And, I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of letting my immune system have a viral infection of decent scale to chew on now and then.   The whole "sterile bubble" problem and all that.

Maybe that's woo-woo-Nick-doesn't-understand-microbiology-pseudoscience, but in my head it makes sense, and the risk of such a course of action is low.

[lupinus]

I've had the hep A&B vaccination regimen with a former employer where I was on the ERT/First responder team.

I would recommend them to everyone- Heps are a heck of a lot more scary than HIV, more common, and a lot easier to catch.

Yep. HIV can theoretically live outside the body in liquid blood for a week....in perfect lab conditions. In real world conditions it lives maybe a few minutes. Dried blood even less. HBV very realistically lives 7+ days.

Not likely of course, you need contact sufficient quantity and have an entry point. And the odds of all three coming together for someone that doesn't use needles, have unprotected sex with unknown partners, and who doesn't run into blood frequently are pretty darn small. But unlike HIV the (albeit, small) chance is actually there. Just something to keep in mind if the consideration comes up again, HBV is not just an STD or druggie virus.

[Scout26]

Me and mine get all the vaccines.  Especially given my health condition(s). 

The other thing kids need to do other than playing in dirt is to have a dog.  Studies have shown that having a pet strengthens the immune system and reduces allergies as well.   So yes, kids need to "kiss" the family dog every now and again....

[BlueStarLizzard]

I will say this: I don't bother with yearly influenze vaccs.  It's minor enough that, while uncomfortable, it's not going to kill me.  And, I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of letting my immune system have a viral infection of decent scale to chew on now and then.   The whole "sterile bubble" problem and all that.

Maybe that's woo-woo-Nick-doesn't-understand-microbiology-pseudoscience, but in my head it makes sense, and the risk of such a course of action is low.

The only reason I got it the one time was because I was daily in the company of someone with a severly comprimised immune system. Since she's got it under control now, I don't bother, because I rarely seem to catch the "crud", as we call it in my family, that happens to be going around, and when I do, it rarely, if ever, lasts more them a week, and it's usually mild, snotty, coughing and general misery that is easily alivated with copious shots of nyquil.
I figure that my immune system is pretty darn solid, and going out of my way to get stuck with a needle (NOT my favorite activity in the world. Needles suck) isn't going to happen unless it is nessasary. Avoiding being a snot nosed, hacking and pissy lizzy for a few days just isn't worth it.

[AmbulanceDriver]

I will say this: I don't bother with yearly influenze vaccs.  It's minor enough that, while uncomfortable, it's not going to kill me.  And, I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of letting my immune system have a viral infection of decent scale to chew on now and then.   The whole "sterile bubble" problem and all that.

Maybe that's woo-woo-Nick-doesn't-understand-microbiology-pseudoscience, but in my head it makes sense, and the risk of such a course of action is low.

Nick, having taken virology, microbiology, and immunology in college, no, it's not "woo-woo-Nick-doesn't-understand-microbiology-pseudoscience".  There is a lot of evidence that shows giving your immune system a workout every once in a while is a good thing.   The different leukocytes (and more specifically, lymphocytes) *do* deplete over time, and while you often have a lot of specific antibodies floating around in your system, they are only really a detection and targeting system for the "killer" leukocytes.  And they can only target something they've seen before.  But having the occasional exposure has been shown to help accelerate the immune response, as it's almost "primed" for something else to come in.