Author Topic: Nurses need a BSN to find a job  (Read 4111 times)

MillCreek

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Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« on: October 15, 2015, 10:20:40 AM »
http://www.wsj.com/articles/job-seeking-nurses-face-higher-hurdle-as-hospitals-require-more-advanced-degrees-1444849456

Google the title to read.

I am old enough that a lot of my nursing contemporaries went to a hospital nursing school, or a diploma or associate degree program.  The hospital and diploma schools are all gone, and I wonder how long it will be before the associate programs are gone as well. 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2015, 10:23:17 AM »
Scratches head.

Last I heard, they couldn't get enough warm bodies to make the rounds at the local hospital, and they needed nurses, stat!

And now this?  ???
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Ned Hamford

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Re: Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2015, 10:29:10 AM »
I can't say I'm close to the issue, but I thought it was the same scheme as with programmers and other technical work; absurd paper requirements as an in for cheap foreign labor.  A big company got in trouble in NY a few years back for having such terrible contracts the courts struck them as being unlawful under our constitution's ban on indentured servitude; Philippine nurses flown in and housed in ramshackle dorms with absurd penalty clauses for failing to serve their employment terms. 
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2015, 10:37:27 AM »
Agreed on the imported labor issue.

That said, I just got out of the hospital following a minor cardiac event (if any cardiac event can be described as "minor"). I didn't have any foreign nurses on the floor, but I did in the ER. What struck me, though, was that all the hospital staff doctors, both in the ER and on the floor, were either Indian or Pakistani. (I can't tell the difference.) Half of them spoke English with such a heavy accent that it was difficult to understand them.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 12:39:58 PM by Hawkmoon »
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Boomhauer

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Re: Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2015, 11:31:31 AM »
Scratches head.

Last I heard, they couldn't get enough warm bodies to make the rounds at the local hospital, and they needed nurses, stat!

And now this?  ???

Absurd meaningless degree requirements WILL be maintained despite a shortage of needed personnel...the story of many fields.



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zxcvbob

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Re: Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2015, 11:53:54 AM »
Article doesn't say anything about her having a nursing license. 

I also thought a RN required several years of college plus an apprenticeship (they don't call it that) and was at least equivalent to a bachelor's degree.
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MechAg94

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Re: Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2015, 12:03:46 PM »
Article doesn't say anything about her having a nursing license. 

I also thought a RN required several years of college plus an apprenticeship (they don't call it that) and was at least equivalent to a bachelor's degree.
A former coworker's wife became an RN.  4 year nursing degree.  The apprenticeship wasn't much more than a year or so. 
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KD5NRH

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Re: Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2015, 12:13:10 PM »
Last I heard, they couldn't get enough warm bodies to make the rounds at the local hospital, and they needed nurses, stat!

Most likely, every former home ec major saw the nurse shortage (and the ads from every associates-degree-online mill) and rushed into the first LVN/LPN program they could find online.  Now, just like in several other markets at various times, there are so many that employers don't have to take them all, so the fresh-off-the-laser-printer University of Phoenix degrees aren't as useful as they were before.

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Re: Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2015, 12:27:21 PM »
The RN degree are probably more lucrative.  If memory serves, my former coworker's wife was starting at something like $25 per hour for the apprenticeship. 

My mother had an LVN degree and did nursing for a while.  She finally stopped.  They live in a small town and most of the doctors didn't treat staff well and she was sick of the low quality staffing at the nursing homes.  She has said a number of times that a nursing home is the last place you want to end up.  RN is the way to go if you can swing it.
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Re: Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2015, 12:33:13 PM »
My sister's a labor and delivery BSN, and she and my BIL moved back to the Milwaukee area from the Minneapolis metro. She had four competing job offers, and some bidding going back and forth on perks and hours to choose from.

Although that could be the specialty, and that she's got 13 years on her resume too.
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Re: Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2015, 12:38:38 PM »
Step-mom got her RN at a three year diploma school that sounded like it was run by a former military nurse.  Wife got her RN via assoc deg at a local community college (after getting a bachelors in a differnt field and working that field for a number of years).

She sees the BSN requirement at several local hospital systems.  She works temp/PRN/whatever so it does not matter much to her income.  She looked into getting her RN-to-BSN degree completion bit online, but decided against it on general principle after spending a semester on it:
1. The courses were worthless fluff with zero added value to someone doing actual nursing.
2. The grading was such that if you show up, throw crap that meets minimum quantity (not quality) in your assignments, and participate X number of times, in online discussions (no matter how asinine your responses were) you would pass.
It was essentially, "write a check, show up, go through useless motions, get your BSN...but most importantly, write that check."

Quote from: article
...hospitals seek nurses with more-advanced degrees, partly in response to an increasingly complex health-care system.

This is laughable.  The highest "tech skill" requirement is interacting with the (many times) risible electronic charting system.  After learning three or so different systems, she can figure a new one out with little trouble.  And hospitals figured that out, too, reducing their orientation deali-o down to a 4-6 hours, which includes other bits besides just the electronic charting.

The extra coursework required for a BSN is of zero utility, as this is a hands-on skill type thing like learing to use a spreadsheet or POS system.

The new BSN nurses have been trained to go deer-in-headlights at balky equipment.  Whereas my wife learned the "three knocks to the side, then unplug it and start over" technique, the new BSN nurses stare at it and then call for a tech to show up.  Who usually knocks it about and then power cycles if it still doesn't work. 

My wife asks, "Don't they know how to do anything they were not specifically trained to do by rote?"

Quote from: article
The trend in nursing mirrors a wider one unfolding in other sectors such as manufacturing and office administration, which are demanding more education and skills than in the past. As the number of job candidates with bachelor’s degrees rose during the recession, due to layoffs and people returning to school, employers began expecting degrees for positions that previously didn’t require them.

IOW, credentialism without a purpose.

Quote from: article
Meanwhile, the Institute of Medicine, an influential independent advisory group, called in 2010 for 80% of the nursing workforce to have bachelor’s degrees by 2020. It based that goal on research dating to the early 2000s showing that hospitals with a higher proportion of nurses with a bachelor’s degree scored higher on important indicators of overall quality of care.

“The hospitals said ‘Where do I get the best value, the highest outcomes for the cost? From a baccalaureate nurse,’” said Peter Buerhaus, a nursing economist at Montana State University.

At the same time, the Affordable Care Act has put more focus on chronic and preventive care, prompting hospitals to seek more coordination and leadership skills from their nurses—skills that aren’t generally taught as part of associate’s-degree curriculum.

Well, of course folks who work within the university system think greater reliance on their wares is a wonderful thing.

Having worked at different hospitals with different conceptions of patient care and outcomes, she has become more than a little suspicious of the usual collected statistics.  At the one magnet hospital, a great emphasis is placed on medicare/medicaid patient satisfaction surveys (which impact reimbursement).  The thing is, medicaid patients are often the sort not to like doing what is necessary to get better, faster.  The result is that weak-willed docs write up huge, redundant, and sometimes dangerous painkiller cocktails for drug-seeking patients due to hospital management pushing "patient satisfaction" uber alles.  (Drug-seeking patients are happiest when stoned out of their gourd for even the most minor of ailments.)  Same thing with prompting patients to get up out of bed and something to eat.  Many want to wallow in bed, which is about the worst thing for them.  The big three, according to my wife are:
1. Manage pain with appropriate painkillers and keeping a gimlet eye on the drug-seekers.
2. Get ass up out of bed and walking ASAP.
3. Eat something, anything, ASAP and get a bowel movement.

Getting an indolent drug-seeking patient out of bed and walking the corridor and sucking down an Ensure or eating a meal when they don;t want to will generally result is a crappy medicaid patient survey.

If hospitals want management and business skills, they need to hire for management and business skills.  BSN coursework will not provide them.  An MBA might, as well as someone with a bachelors from a business school and time in the business world before ditching that and getting an RN cert.

Quote
A push by hospitals to obtain “Magnet” status, a certification that helps hospitals to recruit and retain nurses, also tilts the field toward bachelor’s-degree holders, since nurses in leadership roles at Magnet hospitals must have a bachelor’s degree.

Having worked at magnet and non-magnet hospitals, my wife has seen either zero or negative correlation between patient care and magnet status.

Quote
The extra 18 months or so of education often includes courses in things like leadership, evaluating research and the history of nursing, prompting complaints about unnecessary costs.

“What we had to pay for was just fluff,” said Rebeka Rivera, a pediatric nurse at Children’s Healthcare of Atlanta who took those courses in the final year of her bachelor’s program. “You’re not taking any science courses at that point.”

Last time my wife checked it was an $8000 check, worthless coursework, and worthless regurgitation.

Article doesn't say anything about her having a nursing license. 

I also thought a RN required several years of college plus an apprenticeship (they don't call it that) and was at least equivalent to a bachelor's degree.

RN requires coursework and hands-on nursing work taken from an accredited school plus passing the standardized exam.  Does not need to be a 4-year university.  Wife knows nurses who spent big-$$$ or got big-$$$ scholarships to get a BSN and a private university...who have repeatedly failed their exam and are not yet RNs.  Affirmative action at work. 

Most non-BSN RN cert programs are two years in length, but require stiff prerequisites that make it a three year deal for most folks.  Also, the community college RN cert programs around here are highly competitive, much more so than the 4-year BSN options.  Do not bother applying for the RN cert program with less than a 4.0 GPA in your pre-requisites, as they get more 4.0 applicants than they have slots.


I can't say I'm close to the issue, but I thought it was the same scheme as with programmers and other technical work; absurd paper requirements as an in for cheap foreign labor.  A big company got in trouble in NY a few years back for having such terrible contracts the courts struck them as being unlawful under our constitution's ban on indentured servitude; Philippine nurses flown in and housed in ramshackle dorms with absurd penalty clauses for failing to serve their employment terms. 

Hospitals love them Indians with BSNs from Curry U.  Such good charters.  Not so good at dealing with grave emergencies from left field, though.  No matter, those electronic charts are to die for.

Absurd meaningless degree requirements WILL be maintained despite a shortage of needed personnel...the story of many fields.

Pretty much.

Most likely, every former home ec major saw the nurse shortage (and the ads from every associates-degree-online mill) and rushed into the first LVN/LPN program they could find online.  Now, just like in several other markets at various times, there are so many that employers don't have to take them all, so the fresh-off-the-laser-printer University of Phoenix degrees aren't as useful as they were before.

This article is not about LVN/LPN, but RN nurses and nursing programs.
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MillCreek

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Re: Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2015, 12:40:12 PM »
Article doesn't say anything about her having a nursing license. 

I also thought a RN required several years of college plus an apprenticeship (they don't call it that) and was at least equivalent to a bachelor's degree.

The person quoted in the article would have to have passed the NCLEX (standardized nursing license exam) and have a license before applying for jobs as a nurse.  Your second paragraph refers to the old nursing diploma programs, and those have all gone away.  An undergraduate degree in nursing today in the USA is a BSN: bachelor's of science in nursing and is a four year degree with no apprenticeship.  
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MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
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BobR

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Re: Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2015, 01:16:51 PM »
My take, and I may be a little knowledgeable about the whole system as I am a Masters prepared RN. So yes somewhere along the line I had a BSN, also worked as a licensed EMT-I and an LPN prior to that.

There is a lot of back and forth on the BSN requirement. The VA prefers BSNs, I think it was North Dakota that tried to require a BSN to get a license to practice in that state a while back, it didn't work.

I feel it boils down to respect from other members of the health care team and pay issues.

Nurses are not the handmaidens of the doctors of the past. They are a vital, contributing member of the health care team. But because many of them come in with a Associate Degree, and not the Bachelors you expect of a professional, often times the respect is not there from the physicians, pharmacists, etc who have much higher degree requirements. Hell, even physical therapists are moving toward a Masters Degree model.

I liken the Associate Degree Nurse to a limited skills apprentice who needs to be taught much during their first few years. Much like a welder or auto mechanic with an Associates Degree, they have a limited education that needs to be expanded upon once they start their first job.

Whether you (or they) like it or not, if you want to earn the pay and expect to be treated as a professional you need to start with a professional degree. In this case the BSN. I know plenty of ADNs and LPNs that can run circles around BSNs, especially new ones. That doesn't mean they are paid more or more respected by the other health care team members, it means they have been doing the job long enough to learn through job experience how to be a good nurse and earn the respect of others. The same with BSNs, they don't come from school with the knowledge needed, but in my experience they are able to pick up on things faster and seem to have a better handle on continuing their education to become a better nurse because of their previous exposure to education, not just patient care and the bare minimum to get there that is often covered in an ADN program.

As far as foreign trained nurses, most I have dealt with have been from the Philippines and they have been good nurses. Between the English language test and taking the US nursing exam (NCLEX) it weeds out many who would not otherwise have issues being a nurse in the US. I am not sure what nationalities (other than Canadian) nurses seem to make a large portion of civilian healthcare these days, working for the VA means they are all US Citizens.

bob

zxcvbob

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Re: Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2015, 01:41:36 PM »
The person quoted in the article would have to have passed the NCLEX (standardized nursing license exam) and have a license before applying for jobs as a nurse.  Your second paragraph refers to the old nursing diploma programs, and those have all gone away.  An undergraduate degree in nursing today in the USA is a BSN: bachelor's of science in nursing and is a four year degree with no apprenticeship.  

But the article never said she has a nursing license.  Maybe it was implied, but it looks to me like she took a 2-year course and expects to get a job with just that.
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MillCreek

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Re: Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2015, 01:44:12 PM »

Nurses are not the handmaidens of the doctors of the past. They are a vital, contributing member of the health care team. But because many of them come in with a Associate Degree, and not the Bachelors you expect of a professional, often times the respect is not there from the physicians, pharmacists, etc who have much higher degree requirements. Hell, even physical therapists are moving toward a Masters Degree model.


Many healthcare professions have figured out that the best way to increase wages is to reduce the supply of that profession.  An easy way to reduce the supply is to raise the entry requirements to practice, such as education.  This is why the entry-level degree in pharmacy, physical therapy and audiology is now a doctoral-level degree.  This is also why a new pharmacist or physical therapist can find their first job at around $ 90,000/year depending on where the job is located.  Nurse practitioners will be moving in that direction as well, with the new Doctor of Nursing Practice degree.
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
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MillCreek

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Re: Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2015, 01:45:14 PM »
But the article never said she has a nursing license.  Maybe it was implied, but it looks to me like she took a 2-year course and expects to get a job with just that.

The article may have been poorly worded, but as someone in the business, I know that she would have to have a license before applying for a RN job.
_____________
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MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

zxcvbob

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Re: Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2015, 02:32:09 PM »
The article may have been poorly worded, but as someone in the business, I know that she would have to have a license before applying for a RN job.

Is she applying for RN jobs or LVN?  (it didn't say)
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zxcvbob

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Re: Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2015, 02:34:19 PM »
I think my mom is in this picture that I just found online.  I'll have to send a link to her and ask. :)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nursingpins/3774457274/
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2015, 02:45:11 PM »
My nurse friends have both moved out of nursing, and into whichever job that is where they sit at home, and analyze different meds and procedures, and decide what insurance will or will not pay for.

Or something like that.

One of them tried home health care, and I'm glad she's no longer jetting about St. Louis, going into patients' ghetto homes, all young, fit, and unarmed.
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Re: Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2015, 03:32:55 PM »

This is laughable.  The highest "tech skill" requirement is interacting with the (many times) risible electronic charting system.  After learning three or so different systems, she can figure a new one out with little trouble.  And hospitals figured that out, too, reducing their orientation deali-o down to a 4-6 hours, which includes other bits besides just the electronic charting.


What hospital do you go to?  I need to stay the hell away from there.

My wife has (among other degrees) a masters in Nursing, and she is currently a clinical educator at her hospital. One of the team that handles orientation and continuing education for all nurses in her hospital. New nurse orientation is 40hr/wk, 4 weeks and includes several exams. The exact course and exam schedule is dictated by where the new nurse is going (i.e. a new ER nurse has a different set then a ped ICU nurse). And after that they have a 6 month term on whatever floor they are working where they are teamed up with, and supervised by, a senior nurse.  All of this in a hospital that is, as the article noted, moving strongly towards only hiring nurses with BSN's.

MillCreek

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Re: Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2015, 03:45:56 PM »
My nurse friends have both moved out of nursing, and into whichever job that is where they sit at home, and analyze different meds and procedures, and decide what insurance will or will not pay for.


This is called either utilization review or case management, and is often seen as a great job for nurses who want to leave the bedside, and stop hands-on patient care.
_____________
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MillCreek
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

KD5NRH

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Re: Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2015, 04:25:29 PM »
A friend was basically told she had way too much medical aptitude to waste as an LVN, so she did the smart thing and went for PA instead.  Now she's turning away job offers on a regular basis because she's happy with almost everything about the urology clinic she's at...everything except those of us who refer to her as "assistant pecker checker."


Perd Hapley

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Re: Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2015, 01:16:22 AM »
This is called either utilization review or case management, and is often seen as a great job for nurses who want to leave the bedside, and stop hands-on patient care.


That's the impression I get.  =)
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zxcvbob

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Re: Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2015, 09:13:32 AM »

That's the impression I get.  =)

Or they've wrecked their back or shoulder and can't do bedside work?  Nurses have a very high rate of work-related injury.
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Scout26

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Re: Nurses need a BSN to find a job
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2015, 10:45:01 AM »
This is called either utilization review or case management, and is often seen as a great job for nurses who want to leave the bedside, and stop hands-on patient care.

That's what my ex- now does for UHC.
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