Texas deploying 1000 troops to the border

[Boomhauer]

The oath of enlistment I took when I joined the Oklahoma National Guard was identical to the oath I took when I went on active duty with the exception of adding the line in there about the orders of the Governor as well as the President and officers.

And that would defend against all enemies, foreign and domestic.  I would say a cartel member shooting at me would be an enemy and if I'm on the receiving end of that I'm shooting back and would expect those under me to do the same.

Which is precisely why the NG troops are unarmed. Can't have NG members shooting back, they are to die defenseless instead of shooting future voters.

[Nick1911]

Tangential, but interesting.  Published about a month ago:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/06/27/fact-sheet-changes-us-anti-personnel-landmine-policy

The United States announced today that it will not produce or otherwise acquire any anti-personnel landmines (APL) in the future, including to replace expiring stockpiles.  The announcement, delivered at the Third Review Conference of the Ottawa Convention in Maputo, Mozambique, underscores the U.S. commitment to the spirit and humanitarian aims of the Ottawa Convention, the treaty that prohibits the use, stockpiling, production, and transfer of APL.  The U.S. delegation in Maputo further announced that the United States is diligently pursuing solutions that would be compliant with and that would ultimately allow the United States to accede to the Ottawa Convention.

[Fitz]

By the way, for those confused...


"Assist the DPS/BP with whatever" is not a mission


A mission looks like this:


"<unit> will do <patrol/perimeter defense/raid/whatever> at location IVO grid <a concrete location or area> in order to <very *expletive deleted*ing specific goal in mind>"



"Go there and do whatever" aint a mission. it's grandstanding

[wmenorr67]

Which is precisely why the NG troops are unarmed. Can't have NG members shooting back, they are to die defenseless instead of shooting future voters.

NG troops have been armed in the past in similar situations. 2005 New Orleans we were armed and had orders to shoot back.


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[KD5NRH]

NG troops have been armed in the past in similar situations. 2005 New Orleans we were armed and had orders to shoot back.

Yes, but that was against citizens exercising their Constitutional rights domestic terrorists, not criminal invaders absolutely peaceful downtrodden refugees.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Historically a couple countries have done the fence wall thing. Their logistics were pretty impressive. For fairly short borders. And that was to keep folks in where they were able to control movements and access on the border approaches
 It's particularly problematic to stop foot traffic.
  The last few paragraphs in this outline what it took to seal less than 100 miles. Of far less challenging terrain.

http://www.faqs.org/espionage/Ba-Bl/Berlin-Wall.html

[Fly320s]

How long would 1200 miles of that take to build?


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A large portion of the border runs through Big Bend Nat'l Park. Mostly steep cliffs in there. No fence needed,

[Bigjake]

Historically a couple countries have done the fence wall thing. Their logistics were pretty impressive. For fairly short borders. And that was to keep folks in where they were able to control movements and access on the border approaches
 It's particularly problematic to stop foot traffic.

The Chinese seemed to have managed it about 2 millennia ago...

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

A large portion of the border runs through Big Bend Nat'l Park. Mostly steep cliffs in there. No fence needed,

Maybe  maybe not
https://nacla.org/blog/2013/3/13/big-bend-border-unpoliced-and-unequal

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

The Chinese seemed to have managed it about 2 millennia ago...

Are you familiar with the logistics of that endeavor?
http://www.thechinaexpat.com/facts-about-the-great-wall-of-china/

[Bigjake]

Are you familiar with the logistics of that endeavor?
http://www.thechinaexpat.com/facts-about-the-great-wall-of-china/

Enough to know that 2000 odd years of technology invalidates your assertion that putting up any sort of barrier is pointless.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Not pointless.  Just not that easy. Look at what the Germans had to do. And they controlled the inbound real estate. And they had modern machines

[230RN]

Aren't there a couple of Indian Reservations along there which cross the borders as well?  How would one fence off half a reservation... a different sovereign entity?

I may be off-base here, but I thought that was another problem.

Terry

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

And let's not forget the zomg the (insert non endangered critter here) migrates across the border!
I think that's mostly a ploy but it will bog you down in court

[Ron]

This is an incremental step on our part, a baby step. It is potentially a step in the right direction.

US military personal coming under fire at our own border will be hard for the media and Dems/Rinos to spin. Esp if they are there in a non combat role.

Perry could be milk toast on the issue and is pulling a scam. Or he could be laying the groundwork for what will become part of a new narrative. Flooding our country with dependents and criminals is a subversive act of war. How do you convince the sheeple to take notice? You have to build a case.

My mother in Florida had a reasonably high opinion of the Guatemalans down there. Hard working friendly folks. They do a lot of the landscape work in FL. My concern is the real bad guys slipping in during the confusion using the Guatemalans as cover. Not to mention it's our flipping border, respect it. 

[dogmush]

Indeed. look at what the Germans did.  They secured 900 mile of border for 41 years.  Yes it took logistics, and money.  But it was done with tech of almost 60 years ago.  SOVIET tech of almost 60 years ago and conscript labor.

Aprox. half a million folks made it over in that 41 years.  and most of those were in Berlin.It's much harder to secure something like that in a city with buildings right up on the border and bad sight lines.  But even so, if we slowed the flow of illegals to 12 thousand/ year, I'd take that.

It's not nice, and it's not clean.  But it's not technically challenging either.  Do you honestly believe that our current military (if given permission and support from above) can't deny humans the use of any stretch of land in the world that we want to?  Do you have ANY IDEA how much effort a modern military puts into area denial and control?  It's like WHAT WE DO.  You do realize that never in your lifetime has the US military been publicly used to anywhere close to it's capacity?  Give the US military the order today, and in less then three weeks that border would be closed.  if only the TXNG gets to play, it'll take longer.  

It's also moot, because I've seen no evidence that any government entity in the US actually wants to stop border crossings.

[dogmush]

[quoteAnd let's not forget the zomg the (insert non endangered critter here) migrates across the border!][/quote]

If we actually closed the border, we'd be killing enough Mexicans in the first month that desert tortoises would be the least of the worries.

Aren't there a couple of Indian Reservations along there which cross the borders as well?  How would one fence off half a reservation... a different sovereign entity?

We moved the reservations before.  Jus' saying.  Everyone cries that this is a HUGE problem, but no one wants to put up with the cost of fixing it.  Or just route the DMZ* around the northern part of the rez, and let Mexico deal with them.


*Let's call a thing by it's name.  If you want the border closed, it'll take more then a fence.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

The Germans used 10k troops to secure less than 100 miles of border.
sed.

The border fencing off West Berlin from East Germany was 155 km. (96 mi.) in length. The actual concrete structure that became infamous was only 107 km. (66.5mi.) in length, the remainder of the border was sealed off by wire and fences. More than 300 watch towers were built along the border, as well as 105 km. (65 mi.) of anti-vehicle ditches, more than 20 concrete bunkers, and all patrolled by several hundred dogs and more than ten thousand guards.



Read more: http://www.faqs.org/espionage/Ba-Bl/Berlin-Wall.html#ixzz38XEOJUQr

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

We moved the reservations before.  Jus' saying.  Everyone cries that this is a HUGE problem, but no one wants to put up with the cost of fixing it.  Or just route the DMZ* around the northern part of the rez, and let Mexico deal with them.


*Let's call a thing by it's name.  If you want the border closed, it'll take more then a fence.

I wonder how many folks are gonna shoot kids. Not talk about it but do it.

And the last time we bent the tribes over they hadn't figured out to send their kids to law school. It won't be as easy this time. No gatling guns and cannons against bows and rifles.its gonna be lawyer vs lawyer

[lupinus]

That's one hell of a slinky.

Everyone loves a slinky

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Here's a couple interesting opinions

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2014/04/30/226103/keep-beefing-up-border-patrol.html

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb/28/nation/la-na-texas-fence-20110228

[dogmush]

I wonder how many folks are gonna shoot kids. Not talk about it but do it.

And the last time we bent the tribes over they hadn't figured out to send their kids to law school. It won't be as easy this time. No gatling guns and cannons against bows and rifles.its gonna be lawyer vs lawyer

You're missing the point.  The point I always make when we talk about sending troops to the border.  It's a binary solution set.

Either there's the political will in this country to let the.mil actually close the border.  That means marshal law in the border region and a bunch of dead Central Americans.

Or there's not the will.  In which case you are wasting time and money with troops doing things  that could be accomplished cheaper and easier with cops, farmers, volunteers, or hell migrant workers hired from Home Depot's parking lot.

If the political will exists, the exercise is trivially easy.  All the wailing of "borders are hard to close" is BS.  Just do it.  Let the lawyers sue.  What are they going to do? Even if they get an injunction before the borders sealed, which is unlikely, who will enforce it?

If the will doesn't exist (and it currently, emphatically does not) then quit crying about "sending the troops" and quit deploying guardsman who have probably already spent plenty of time away from home in a desert.

I wonder how many folks are gonna shoot kids.

What part of "mine field" did you not understand?  There are no kids anywhere nearby when you fly and/or drive the vehicle by.  And there'd probably be plenty if you wanted to mount an AC-130 or Stryker over watch.  There always seems to be enough.

Read what I'm saying.  All this political rhetoric about "sending troops to the border" is dangerous not because it's hard to close the border with a military, but precisely because it's not hard.  It's just costly.  And one day soon, mark my words, someone's going to give it a shot.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

You missed the part about no more mines? And when those mines blow up someone nonbrown? That's gonna upset even the faithful. And realistically it's gonna happen.
I think you are correct in saying we lack the political will.

I think we are approaching this with the same mindset we used on the war on some drugs. Same mistake different problem

[Ron]

The southern border is not going to mined in our lifetime. It probably never will.

Just an administration being serious about border security (building walls, increasing resources to patrol, sending back those who enter without permission etc) would slow the flow down to something more manageable.

The lack of will to enforce our existing laws as well as the nearly treasonous comments from elected officials regarding the border are the major problem. Not the lack of mine fields.   

[RevDisk]

Tangential, but interesting.  Published about a month ago:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/06/27/fact-sheet-changes-us-anti-personnel-landmine-policy

The United States announced today that it will not produce or otherwise acquire any anti-personnel landmines (APL) in the future, including to replace expiring stockpiles.  The announcement, delivered at the Third Review Conference of the Ottawa Convention in Maputo, Mozambique, underscores the U.S. commitment to the spirit and humanitarian aims of the Ottawa Convention, the treaty that prohibits the use, stockpiling, production, and transfer of APL.  The U.S. delegation in Maputo further announced that the United States is diligently pursuing solutions that would be compliant with and that would ultimately allow the United States to accede to the Ottawa Convention.

That is not good news for the Korean DMZ and Gitmo...