Troops patrolling Italian cities

[MicroBalrog]

Italian troops have begun patrolling cities as part of a government campaign to combat crime and boost security.

Some 3,000 soldiers will be deployed over the next week in major cities including Milan, Rome and Naples.

They are patrolling alongside police officers and guarding high-profile tourist sites and embassies, as well as immigrant holding centres.

Critics say the move sends a message that Italy is swamped by crime and that its police are not up to the job.

The deployment is due to last for six months.

The BBC's Mark Duff in Milan says troops made their presence discretely felt from first light, at the city's main railway station and main square, the Piazza Duomo.

'Public demand'

Those patrolling city centres wore working rather than combat dress, and carried only sidearms - though those guarding embassies and other sensitive sites were more heavily armed.

Defence Minister Ignazio La Russa said that after six months the government would "make an evaluation to see whether it has worked and should be extended to other cities".

''This is not a militarisation of cities but a clear response to the perceived demand for greater security," he said last week.

Right-wing Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi swept to power in April's election on a tough law-and-order platform, promising new measures to curb illegal immigration and combat crime.

But his government has also been accused of whipping up a xenophobic mood against the illegal immigrants it blames for much of the serious street crime in Italian cities.

Ministers say they are simply responding to Italians' fears. A recent study showed that Italians have never before been so worried about their vulnerability to crime.

But shadow interior minister Marco Minniti said: "It's an image-building operation that risks backfiring."

"Soldiers patrolling the centres of cities that are our greatest tourist attractions is not a very nice calling card for Italy at the height of the tourist season," he said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7540585.stm

[Manedwolf]

They've had a lot of problems with violent crime from Romanian immigrants, and also the ever-present thieving Gypsies. They'll pick your pocket or get into your bag if you even blink.

[K Frame]

I remember troops patroling the streets of Paris, Amsterdam, and Rotterdam back in the 1980s. No Posse Comitatis (sp?) laws in Europe as far as I know.

[MicroBalrog]

I remember troops patroling the streets of Paris, Amsterdam, and Rotterdam back in the 1980s. No Posse Comitatis (sp?) laws in Europe as far as I know.

I thought troops patrolling the streets was the stuff that happens in genuine emergencies, or that happens in crap countries (like the one I live in). Or, barring that, the stuff of Burkhardt.

P.S. Yes, Posse Comitatus (correct spelling) is one of the many reasons Americans should be grateful that they have such a wonderful country.

[Manedwolf]

I remember troops patroling the streets of Paris, Amsterdam, and Rotterdam back in the 1980s. No Posse Comitatis (sp?) laws in Europe as far as I know.

I thought troops patrolling the streets was the stuff that happens in genuine emergencies, or that happens in crap countries (like the one I live in). Or, barring that, the stuff of Burkhardt.

P.S. Yes, Posse Comitatus (correct spelling) is one of the many reasons Americans should be grateful that they have such a wonderful country.

No. They have no laws proscribing such a thing, as far as I know. In this case, for them, troops with only a sidearm might just be more situationally aware than the local cops.

Some of the Romanian illegals have committed horrible violent crimes, and Italians are by and large disarmed.

I thought troops patrolling the streets was the stuff that happens in genuine emergencies, or that happens in crap countries (like the one I live in). Or, barring that, the stuff of Burkhardt.

So the repeating killdozer incidents haven't convinced you that a constantly-armed society is best for Israel, being that it's surrounded by people who want to kill everyone there? Wow.

[Hawkmoon]

But shadow interior minister Marco Minniti said: "It's an image-building operation that risks backfiring."

"Soldiers patrolling the centres of cities that are our greatest tourist attractions is not a very nice calling card for Italy at the height of the tourist season," he said.

No, Marco, it's much better publicity to let a few tourists get mugged/raped/murdered and have word get out to the traveling public that might have come to Rome ... if they felt safe.

I wonder what all the fuss is about. I was in Rome as part of a student tour back in the 1960s. I don't know if they were police or soldiers, but back then the streets were patrolled by 2-man teams armed with carbines. I don't recall anyone having any problem with it.

[De Selby]

I remember troops patroling the streets of Paris, Amsterdam, and Rotterdam back in the 1980s. No Posse Comitatis (sp?) laws in Europe as far as I know.

I thought troops patrolling the streets was the stuff that happens in genuine emergencies, or that happens in crap countries (like the one I live in). Or, barring that, the stuff of Burkhardt.

P.S. Yes, Posse Comitatus (correct spelling) is one of the many reasons Americans should be grateful that they have such a wonderful country.

No. They have no laws proscribing such a thing, as far as I know. In this case, for them, troops with only a sidearm might just be more situationally aware than the local cops.

Some of the Romanian illegals have committed horrible violent crimes, and Italians are by and large disarmed.

The Romanian illegals have plenty of competition for "most criminal acts" from the locals, as do the Gypsies.

I think there are a number of reasons why the government would see this as a good idea: troops tend to be more intimidating and more unfamiliar, and hence less likely to ignore a known offender or be susceptible to "deal making" with the crooks.  They also put criminals on notice that the government is preparing to dump resources into rooting them out.

It's always important for a highly corrupt, dysfunctional regime to make itself look important, too.  Can't underestimate the value of showing off the guns.

[De Selby]

So the repeating killdozer incidents haven't convinced you that a constantly-armed society is best for Israel, being that it's surrounded by people who want to kill everyone there? Wow.

Armed private citizens defending themselves is not the same as having government troops all over the place to enforce the never ending "State of Emergency" that apparently justifies censorship of all the press, arresting people who criticize the government, and shooting protesters.

[MicroBalrog]

Some of the Romanian illegals have committed horrible violent crimes, and Italians are by and large disarmed.

Italy has a lower murder rate than New Hampshire had in, say, 1996. I don't think you'll support deploying the Marines into Nashua and Manchester on that basis, or will you?

]

So the repeating killdozer incidents haven't convinced you that a constantly-armed society is best for Israel, being that it's surrounded by people who want to kill everyone there? Wow.

1. Israel is not 'surrounded' by people who want to kill everyone here. Neither the Jordanians nor the Egyptians (of whose border police 35 people have been injured or killed this year alone fighting Islamic terrorists on the Gaza/Egyptian border) want to kill us all.

2. There is a difference between a constantly-armed society and what we have down here.

I'm perfectly okay with a society wherein I, Boris Karpa, get to buy an Uzi over the counter and carry it to work. I am not okay with a society which is infested by paramilitary police who shoot or beat up me or my friends without any cause, 'general security' services that are authorized to take an innocent man from the court room (after he has been ruled not guilty) and imprison him without trial.

No, the 'threat of terrorism'  which is lower now than in any previous point in Israel's history  does not justify laws which authorize the police to have access to my emails and cellphone conversation without warrants, nor does it justify a police force which takes pleasure in beating up sixteen-year-old citizens of the country.

Just as a young man taking a rifle to a classroom full of 16-year olds does not justify taking away your gun rights, neither does the action of a young man  Muslim or otherwise  taking a bulldozer to some passers by justify state discrimination against those Muslims who happen to be citizens of Israel, or any other foolishness that they're now proposing.

[ilbob]

if the problem is illegals, as they seem to be trying to claim, find them and deport them.

the real problem in doing anything about crime in Italy is that it is part of the culture, something like Chicago. you just can't easily separate criminals and government.

[The Annoyed Man]

I remember troops patroling the streets of Paris, Amsterdam, and Rotterdam back in the 1980s. No Posse Comitatis (sp?) laws in Europe as far as I know.

Over here, military has been banned from performing any law enforcement since 1931. They do use conscripts occasionally when they search for missing persons, and for fighting wildfires and such. No police work though. This might've changed in the last few years though. I do remember that the Chief of Police wanted to send in troops to help the cops during the EU Summit riots in Gothenburg in 2001. Request was denied.

[K Frame]

When I was in Paris in the 1980s (1981 and 1983) the terrorism situation was quite a bit different.

Heavily armed cops were everywhere, as were heavily armed troops. Nothing like seeing a cop directing traffic with a sub machine gun slung over his back.

The easiest way to tell the troops from the cops?

The cops had the obsolete weapons -- MAS 36 rifles and MAS 38 and MAT 49 submachine guns.

The troops had modern rifles and submachine guns.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

When I was in Paris 15 years ago, they had all of the trashcans welded shut to prevent bombs.  I don't recall seeing soldiers, though.

This stuff didn't seem to depress tourism much back then.  I can't imagine it doing so now.

I'm going to spend a week each in Rome and Paris for my wedding in October.  It'll be interesting to see how things are over there.

[HankB]

When I've been through the London (home of the famous unarmed bobbie) and Frankfurt airports, the security folks walked around in pairs, at least one of which invariably had what looked like an H&K SMG slung over his shoulder.

When I was in Paris 15 years ago, they had all of the trashcans welded shut to prevent bombs.

Uhhh . . . then where did people put their trash?

[MicroBalrog]

When I've been through the London (home of the famous unarmed bobbie) and Frankfurt airports, the security folks walked around in pairs, at least one of which invariably had what looked like an H&K SMG slung over his shoulder.

I do not think anybody here has a problem with armed people.

But the gap between police and military personnel exists for a reason.

[K Frame]

"Uhhh . . . then where did people put their trash?"


Where Parisians have been putting their trash for hundreds of years -- on the side walk, in the streets, in the grass, in the Seine...

You name it.

I will have to admit, though, that when I was in Paris, the trash cans were absolutely pristine. Not surprising, given that no one seemed to use the damned things. 

[AZRedhawk44]

But shadow interior minister Marco Minniti said: "It's an image-building operation that risks backfiring."

Wow... what a job title!  What's his resume look like?  How do I get that gig?

BTW, American Heritage Dictionary defines a "gendarme" (french police officer) as:

gen·darme   (zhän'därm', zhäɴ'därm') 
n.   
1. A member of the French national police organization constituting a branch of the armed forces with responsibility for general law enforcement.
2. Slang A police officer.

French police are part of the military.  There is little distinction between the gendarmes and armed forces at all.

I'm not claiming anything other than an assumption that the italian law enforcement and military services are structured similarly to those of France, but France stands as a very obvious contrast to law enforcement and domestic security strategies, in comparison to that of the US.

[MicroBalrog]

Indeed, Azredhawk, the idea that European countries have the same approach to liberty and democracy as a US is a misconception many people have. Europe is far more amenable to a lot of things that'd never fly in America, and vice versa.

[K Frame]

"French police are part of the military.  There is little distinction between the gendarmes and armed forces at all."

Yep. The important distinction is how they are deployed, which at one time at least, resulted in a difference in how they were uniformed and how they were armed.

It's not hard to make the distinction between a gendarme directing traffic in an intersection with a MAT 49 on his back and a French soldier in BDUs and armed with a FAMAS patrolling the Tulleries.

[seeker_two]

When I was in Paris 15 years ago, they had all of the trashcans welded shut to prevent bombs.

Uhhh . . . then where did people put their trash?

They have trash cans in Paris?......

[lacoochee]

Quote from: HankB on Today at 01:11:57 PM
Quote from: Headless Thompson Gunner on Today at 01:05:18 PM
When I was in Paris 15 years ago, they had all of the trashcans welded shut to prevent bombs.
Uhhh . . . then where did people put their trash?

They have trash cans in Paris?......

Yep, they borrowed them from Napoli, it's not like they were using them.....

[Antibubba]

''This is not a militarisation of cities but a clear response to the perceived demand for greater security," he said last week.

Somewhere, Mussolini is smiling.