Author Topic: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...  (Read 19590 times)

zxcvbob

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Balog

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2014, 06:22:09 PM »
They've started back-pedaling, and blamed some unnamed pro-bono lawyer
http://www.chron.com/news/politics/houston/article/Parker-calls-ERO-sermon-supboeana-overly-broad-5824816.php



Quote
The subpoenas, handed down to five pastors and religious leaders last month, came to light this week when attorneys for the group of pastors filed a motion to quash the request. Though Feldman stood behind the subpoena in an interview  Tuesday, he and Parker  said during the Mayor's weekly press conference Wednesday that the wording was problematic.

I'm very convinced of their sincerity.
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lee n. field

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2014, 06:29:55 PM »
OK, who's in charge of sending every item of JW literature to them?

And does Jack T. Chick have an "order all and send as gift" option?

ETA: In the interest of diversity, you must send every available language.


Not that I can see, but their on line order looks pretty standard.  Billing address and shipping address are separate.

https://www.chick.com/store/secure/billship.asp
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Ron

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2014, 06:32:51 PM »
It was a shot across the bow meant to intimidate the pastors.

My suspicion is they felt if they could get away with it, so much the better.

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

KD5NRH

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2014, 06:37:08 PM »

Not that I can see, but their on line order looks pretty standard.  Billing address and shipping address are separate.

https://www.chick.com/store/secure/billship.asp


Ok, who wants to set up crowdfunding?  Plenty of other sources for material, too.

French G.

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2014, 07:30:58 PM »
I'd like to see every preacher in Houston civilly disobey. Leftists love that, right?

I would also like to see every preacher without Houston flood the city's office, and crash their email with sermons, tracts, essays, etc, etc. I will speak to my pastor about this at our Wed. evening meeting.

Put it on a milk carton. "Dissent is patriotic." last seen ca. Nov 2008.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2014, 08:45:19 PM »
Maybe every pastor that can in the country should send their sermons. Give em lots to look at. Unsorted of course


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Unisaw

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2014, 09:26:41 PM »
It's somewhat disappointing to see the mayor and city attorney begin backpedaling rather than being smacked down in court, but I suspect someone refreshed their memory that deprivation of rights under color of law is a Federal crime.
http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/crm/242fin.php
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lee n. field

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2014, 09:30:28 PM »
It's somewhat disappointing to see the mayor and city attorney begin backpedaling rather than being smacked down in court, but I suspect someone refreshed their memory that deprivation of rights under color of law is a Federal crime.
http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/crm/242fin.php

has that ever actually been used?
In thy presence is fulness of joy.
At thy right hand pleasures for evermore.

Marnoot

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Marnoot's being quiet.  Must be busy concatenating the the entire archive of General Conference talks into a single FLAC to email to mayor@houstontx.gov ;)

Replace FLAC with low-quality-but-high-bitrate WAV and I'll get cracking on it. They'll accept said WAV on 3.25" disks,  no?

I imagine many churches large and small all across the country are watching this carefully and the larger ones having their legal teams watch even more closely.

Unisaw

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2014, 09:44:29 PM »
has that ever actually been used?
The Department of Justice apparently used it against the police department in the Rodney King Case.  Perhaps a lawyer can jump in...

I'm sure Holder wouldn't be rushing to prosecute in this case.
Well, if you have the sudden urge to lick your balls you'll know you got the veterinary version... K Frame

Perd Hapley

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2014, 10:40:16 PM »
Put it on a milk carton. "Dissent is patriotic." last seen ca. Nov 2008.


Oh no, it's not just patriotic. As we heard about one frillion eleventee times, dissent is THE HIGHEST FORM OF TEH PATRIOTISMS.
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K Frame

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #37 on: October 16, 2014, 10:58:46 AM »
Has anyone seen this being reported by anyone other than Fox new outlets?

I've not seen it on ABC, CBS, NBC, or CNN.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #38 on: October 16, 2014, 11:08:43 AM »
Churches in American receive legitimacy from the government through 501(c) charitable organization taxation rules.  Sleep with dogs, wake up with fleas.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #39 on: October 16, 2014, 11:16:36 AM »
Has anyone seen this being reported by anyone other than Fox new outlets?

I've not seen it on ABC, CBS, NBC, or CNN.

I've seen it at chron.com (The Houston Chronicle) because it's local news there.  You won't find it on the networks because it makes their pet gay mayor look bad.
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Ron

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #40 on: October 16, 2014, 11:19:45 AM »
Churches in American receive legitimacy from the government through 501(c) charitable organization taxation rules.  Sleep with dogs, wake up with fleas.


Freedom of religion is a dead letter in the USA.

There is no way an assembly of believers can congregate together, pool their resources together for the needs of the group as well as distribution to the needy without becoming incorporated. If you want to have a church you must bow down to the state and become a creature of the state.

The "church" is a zombie in the USA but doesn't know it yet.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Balog

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #42 on: October 16, 2014, 11:22:12 AM »
Churches in American receive legitimacy from the government through 501(c) charitable organization taxation rules.  Sleep with dogs, wake up with fleas.


Bible clearly says to obey local authorities unless what they're requiring is unBiblical. 501(c) is the structure fed.gov has set up for churches, so they don't have much choice but to use it. If they don't they can either become a coporation, or they can essentially be unable to have a building, organize charitable relief work etc. It's not a great setup but we don't have much choice.
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Ron

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #43 on: October 16, 2014, 11:36:37 AM »
The Freedom of conscience is under continual assault by "progressives" under the banner of tolerance and inclusion.

 
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

KD5NRH

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #44 on: October 16, 2014, 12:16:40 PM »
Bible clearly says to obey local authorities unless what they're requiring is unBiblical.

Allowing those local authorities to suppress the preaching of the Gospel, particularly when they defy their own higher authorities and violate their sworn oaths of office by doing so, is unBiblical.

This is the oath anyone applying for a place on the ballot for a local election takes in Texas:
Quote
Before me, the undersigned authority, on this day personally appeared (name) _________________________________________, who being by me
here and now duly sworn, upon oath says: “I, (name)________________________________________, of _____________________________
County, Texas, being a candidate for the office of ______________________________________________________, swear that I will support and
defend the Constitution and laws
of the United States and of the State of Texas. I am a citizen of the United States eligible to hold such office under
the Constitution and laws of this state. I have not been finally convicted of a felony for which I have not been pardoned or had my full rights of
citizenship restored by other official action. I have not been determined by a final judgment of a court exercising probate jurisdiction to be totally
mentally incapacitated or partially mentally incapacitated without the right to vote. I am aware of the nepotism law, Chapter 573, Government Code.

Texas Constitution, Article 1 Section 6:
Quote
FREEDOM OF WORSHIP.  All men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own consciences.  No man shall be compelled to attend, erect or support any place of worship, or to maintain any ministry against his consent.  No human authority ought, in any case whatever, to control or interfere with the rights of conscience in matters of religion, and no preference shall ever be given by law to any religious society or mode of worship.  But it shall be the duty of the Legislature to pass such laws as may be necessary to protect equally every religious denomination in the peaceable enjoyment of its own mode of public worship.

Section 8:
Quote
FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND PRESS; LIBEL.  Every person shall be at liberty to speak, write or publish his opinions on any subject, being responsible for the abuse of that privilege; and no law shall ever be passed curtailing the liberty of speech or of the press.  In prosecutions for the publication of papers, investigating the conduct of officers, or men in public capacity, or when the matter published is proper for public information, the truth thereof may be given in evidence.  And in all indictments for libels, the jury shall have the right to determine the law and the facts, under the direction of the court, as in other cases.

Section 9:
Quote
SEARCHES AND SEIZURES.  The people shall be secure in their persons, houses, papers and possessions, from all unreasonable seizures or searches, and no warrant to search any place, or to seize any person or thing, shall issue without describing them as near as may be, nor without probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation.

One can easily argue that a city that issues mass subpoenas for sermons implies an intent to take legal action, and fully intends their actions to have a chilling effect on the freedom of speech of churches.

Balog

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #45 on: October 16, 2014, 12:37:00 PM »
I was talking about churches registering as 501(c) entities, not about complying with the subpoenas.
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I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

KD5NRH

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #46 on: October 16, 2014, 12:45:12 PM »
I was talking about churches registering as 501(c) entities, not about complying with the subpoenas.

Considering that that status is pretty much always the first thing threatened if they don't precisely toe the line in any way, I'd have to say it's related.

sanglant

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #47 on: October 16, 2014, 03:46:51 PM »
Threatened, yep. But just try to get them to follow through. [tinfoil]


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/07/AR2008090702460.html

Ron

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #48 on: October 16, 2014, 03:58:25 PM »
There it is right in the above article:

Quote
"The federal tax law is clear. Churches are charitable institutions that exist to do charitable things. That does not include politics. Political groups do politics."

There are appellate and supreme court precedents on the issue.

The government will dictate the role of religious institutions and how they conduct themselves. They exist at the pleasure of the state.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

zxcvbob

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #49 on: October 16, 2014, 05:08:14 PM »
There it is right in the above article:

There are appellate and supreme court precedents on the issue.

The government will dictate the role of religious institutions and how they conduct themselves. They exist at the pleasure of the state.

Not exactly.  They exist whether the state recognizes them or not; Jesus founded the church, not Caesar.  Jesus also paid his taxes.
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