Legal question

[Hawkmoon]

Can you be guilty of DUI ("Driving" Under the Influence)  if you're not "driving"? Like, say ... if you're "riding" a horse?

http://www.newser.com/story/251093/addled-in-the-saddle-woman-charged-with-dui-on-horseback.html

I guess it somewhat depends on how (or if) Florida statutes define "driving," but I'm inclined to think that words have meaning, and if the horse in question wasn't pulling a carriage or wagon, then she probably wasn't "driving" and should have that charge dismissed. Does one need a "driver's" license to ride a horse in Florida?

[French G.]

I think driving means whatever "they" want it to mean. I have heard of people getting DUI on a non powered bike and I know a guy that got DUI for sitting in his parked, engine off car. Correct charge ought to be drunk in public.

[mtnbkr]

When I was in school, I did a semester internship at the local courthouse.  Folks got DUI for being drunk and sitting in their cars, driving their car across their front lawn with two wheels on the public street, driving non-car vehicles, etc.  Basically, if you're drinking and in motion with anything other than your own power, you can potentially be charged DUI.

Thanks MADD.

Chris

[Perd Hapley]

I thought driving a horse implied riding on a conveyance behind it. But I'm not of the gentry, so how would I know?

[cordex]

As others have said, DUI can apply differently based on state but is often very liberally defined. In my state drunk on a lawnmower or tractor - completely on ones own property - can get you a DUI.

[dogmush]

In FL, Yes.  It's the one of the reasons that I frequently rant against DUI laws.  Yes DUI is bad, but we've gone so far as to be stupid about it, while at the same time not actually stopping the repeat offenders.

In FL you can be guilty (and I know folks that have been found such) of DUI while neither "driving" nor under the "influence".

For the sake of this law, in FL, "driving" is defined as "Driving or being in actual control of" a vehicle.  Actual control has been construed pretty broadly.  Passed out on your porch with your keys in your pocket and car in the driveway?  DUI.  Waiting on the sidewalk outside a bar for a cab to show up with your keys?  DUI  Riding a go-cart on your own property after two beers? DUI.*

Vehicle is defined as:

(97) VEHICLE.—Every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except personal delivery devices and devices used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks.

Horses, mule, and in one case I'm aware of a Red Wagon attached to a golden retriever have all been ruled as "vehicles" in FL.


*That's not conjecture.  Each of those events resulted in a DUI conviction to someone I knew during the decade I spent working in bars in FL.

[230RN]

In FL, Yes.  It's the one of the reasons that I frequently rant against DUI laws.  Yes DUI is bad, but we've gone so far as to be stupid about it, while at the same time not actually stopping the repeat offenders.
...

That's the way I feel about it, and I don't even drink.

...

Thanks MADD.

Chris

That's the way I feel about it, and I don't even drink.

I just can't stand all those do-gooders, regardless of what they're "doing good" about, going way  overboard with what they're do-gooding about.

I'm sort of like Robert Levy* in this respect.  I have an "academic interest" in the matter of SJWs and all other do-gooders going overboard with their sense of what's Right and Good and Cosy and Noble and Just and Nice and Proper in the world.

Note the "going overboard" qualification. (And sometimes these overachieving do-gooders are on judicial benches.)

Yeah, yeah, I know... I sound like a passionate "do-gooder" about those damned passionate "do-gooders." 

Terry

* Robert Levy, the Heller case, and "an academic interest":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller

Lower court background

In 2002, Robert A. Levy, a Senior Fellow at the Cato Institute, began vetting plaintiffs with Clark M. Neily III, for a planned Second Amendment lawsuit that he would personally finance. Although he himself had never owned a gun, as a Constitutional scholar he had an academic interest in the subject....

[grampster]

My brother had a friend who got arrested for DUI.  He was riding a dirt bike on private property.  He dumped the bike and had some cuts and bruises.  They went to the emergency room.  When the emergency room folks asked him what had happened he told them he dumped a bike.  They called the police as they smelled beer on his breath.  He'd had a couple beers and they made him consent to a blood test.  He tested at .08.  He got charged and found guilty.  Go figure.

[HeroHog]

He should have lawyered up and fought that! If he DID, his lawyer needs some SERIOUS schooling! There is NO WAY that is legal! Riding an off road bike on private land is NOT the purview of the DUI cops!

[cordex]

He should have lawyered up and fought that! If he DID, his lawyer needs some SERIOUS schooling! There is NO WAY that is legal! Riding an off road bike on private land is NOT the purview of the DUI cops!

Depends on state laws. Yes, in some states that absolutely is illegal and can be prosecuted.

Isn’t right, but that is the way it is.

[T.O.M.]

Depends on state laws. Yes, in some states that absolutely is illegal and can be prosecuted.

Isn’t right, but that is the way it is.

Yeah, some states have pushed OVI/DUI laws to include:
1. non-motor vehicles
2. operation on any property, public or private
3. physical control laws...a personal favorite.  In short, if you are in "control" of a vehicle, meaning you have control of the keys and are in the car, you're guilty of OVI (physical control).  So, you have a few, recognize you're impaired, so go to sleep it off in the back seat of your car.  If you still have the keys, you're guilty.

[dogmush]

He should have lawyered up and fought that! If he DID, his lawyer needs some SERIOUS schooling! There is NO WAY that is legal! Riding an off road bike on private land is NOT the purview of the DUI cops!

It absolutely is in FL. The relevant part of the statute reads: "anywhere in the state."

They had to close the "on my own Gods Damned land" loophole.

[Sideways_8]

Yeah, some states have pushed OVI/DUI laws to include:
1. non-motor vehicles
2. operation on any property, public or private
3. physical control laws...a personal favorite.  In short, if you are in "control" of a vehicle, meaning you have control of the keys and are in the car, you're guilty of OVI (physical control).  So, you have a few, recognize you're impaired, so go to sleep it off in the back seat of your car.  If you still have the keys, you're guilty.

So in other words common sense has gone out the window. I strongly disagree with getting a DUI on my own private property.

[MillCreek]

Yeah, some states have pushed OVI/DUI laws to include:
1. non-motor vehicles
2. operation on any property, public or private
3. physical control laws...a personal favorite.  In short, if you are in "control" of a vehicle, meaning you have control of the keys and are in the car, you're guilty of OVI (physical control).  So, you have a few, recognize you're impaired, so go to sleep it off in the back seat of your car.  If you still have the keys, you're guilty.

Washington follows the 'in control' standard, and I have wondered that if the keys are not on your person or in the passenger compartment, would that be a defense to the 'in control' standard. If you put the keys on top of a tire or throw them into the trunk (not accessible from the passenger compartment), could you successfully argue you were not 'in control'.  I have not done the Lexis/Nexis search to see if this has come up in appellate law.

[HeroHog]

If it doesn't involve the public, the public should keep it's nose OUT of it! It's MY body, MY property (vehicle, land and whatever's on it) so what business does ANYONE have in it? MY money will pay for whatever I break of MINE and *I* am responsible for my insurance/medical bills. Anything infringing on that is WRONG.

[230RN]

I wonder what kind of distances might be involved for you to still be "in control?"  I'm lying stupified on my bed at a 1.3 BAL in my house with the car keys on my dresser.  The car is parked in my driveway.  The engine is cold --as in at 80° F.

I'm DUI-ing?

Or is there a specific distance, defined by the "common sense" of a "reasonable man," in terms of feet and inches from the vehicle, where I'm off the hook for a DUI?

Is that "constructive driving?"

Is the law an ass?

[Hawkmoon]

Or is there a specific distance, defined by the "common sense" of a "reasonable man," in terms of feet and inches from the vehicle, where the poor drunk is off the hook for a DUI?

http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/obitcs.htm

[T.O.M.]

Washington follows the 'in control' standard, and I have wondered that if the keys are not on your person or in the passenger compartment, would that be a defense to the 'in control' standard. If you put the keys on top of a tire or throw them into the trunk (not accessible from the passenger compartment), could you successfully argue you were not 'in control'.  I have not done the Lexis/Nexis search to see if this has come up in appellate law.

I believe there is appellate law in Ohio that if the keys are not in the ignition or on the person of the impaired person, there is not physical control.  In the ignition or in the person's pocket, then you have physical control.  So leaving the keys on the front seat, sleeping in the back seat might be okay (I've not researched this in 10+ years, so I could be totally wrong).   

[230RN]

I believe there is appellate law in Ohio that if the keys are not in the ignition or on the person of the impaired person, there is not physical control.  In the ignition or in the person's pocket, then you have physical control.  So leaving the keys on the front seat, sleeping in the back seat might be okay (I've not researched this in 10+ years, so I could be totally wrong).  

But the poor schnook had to appeal it in the first place to get to even that piss-poor level of "common sense," didn't he?

This implies that at the initial level of "justice," some judge was wrong in listening to the DA's case for conviction.

Terry, 230RN

[Jamisjockey]

So in other words common sense has gone out the window. I strongly disagree with getting a DUI on my own private property.

What makes you think it's YOUR property?  Stop paying property taxes and see how that goes....

I challenge anyone to deny we don't live a police state.

[230RN]

I challenge anyone to deny we don't live a police state.

"I challenge anyone to deny we don't live a  that we live in a police state."

Fixed.

For decades and decades I've maintained that you can't drive a mile, park your car, walk around the block, get back in your car and drive another mile without breaking at least four laws.

So the last person I posed that to said that was BS.  So I bet him ten bucks to try it with me pointing out the four violations as they occurred.

So he says, "I'll take that bet."

So I says, "That's one."

So he says, "Huh?"

So I says, "That's your first one.  Gambling is illegal."

So that was the end of that experiment.

Terry, 230RN

[Jamisjockey]

"I challenge anyone to deny we don't live a  that we live in a police state."

Fixed.

For decades and decades I've maintained that you can't drive a mile, park your cat, walk around the block, get back in your car and drive another mile without breaking at least four laws.

So the last person I posed that to said that was BS.  So I bet him ten bucks to try it with me pointing out the four violations as they occurred.

So he says, "I'll take that bet."

So I says, "That's one."

So he says, "Huh?"

So I says, "That's your first one.  Gambling is illegal."

So that was the end of that experiment.

Terry, 230RN

That's what I meant 


We live in a police state though.   

[charby]

Iowa- Has an engine or sails, DUI. Sails was included when they added boating drunk a few years ago to DUI offenses.

Doesn't meet criteria of engine or sails, public intox. So you riding a bike, horse, skateboard, padding a canoe, rowing a boat, rollerblading, not a DUI but public intox.

Also you can get a DUI on private property, if you're drunk on a riding lawn mower you could get a DUI if the police wanted too. Never heard of it happening but it is lawful in Iowa.

[Scout26]

I have a friend that got a DUI.  She was asleep in her car, in the parking lot of a bar.  No keys in the ignition.  She had recognized that she was probably over the limit so instead of getting in a car with drunk friends, or driving home (possibly) drunk, she decided to lock herself into her car and go to sleep until had slept it off.

Doing the smart thing, right ??

Nope, after the bar closed, the cops come by, see her car, see her, wake her up, charged with DUI.  And convicted because says so.   Even though no keys in ignition and driver sleeping.

Yep, Thanks MADD !!!

 

[MechAg94]

Yep, DUI is similar to gun laws.  Punish everyone that drinks instead of determining who is causing the wrecks and focusing on those people.  It isn't the guy that had two beers.  For that matter, it also isn't the guy with an open beer in the car that he just bought for the drive home either.