This could get Interesting

[RoadKingLarry]

Any bets on a tragic accidental "natural gas explosion" at the Bundy compound or Mr. Bundy suddenly discovering the hard way that he had a previously undiagnosed heart condition?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

my bet is a bunch of folks ending up bankrupt and or in jail. they shoulda snuck in after blm left and got the beef.  they got froggy and i suspect that was the last in a series of bad moves. they will get arrested one by one and now it won't just be bundys family fubar.  actions have consequences

[RevDisk]

my bet is a bunch of folks ending up bankrupt and or in jail. they shoulda snuck in after blm left and got the beef.  they got froggy and i suspect that was the last in a series of bad moves. they will get arrested one by one and now it won't just be bundys family fubar.  actions have consequences

I concur. They won't let it slide. Can't.

But it'll be to pick them off one by one on petty BS or anything they can get to stick. Smartest thing would be to get the cattle and run.

[grampster]

So Bundy quit paying money to the feds who he said were mismanaging the land.  It's well established that the money paid by ranchers and Bundy prior to 1993 was used to buy out the other ranchers.  So the ranchers were bought out with their own money that was to be used to improve the area.  After 1993 Bundy continued to graze his cattle and make improvements with his own money while the BLM created a strawman with the turtles that they so mismanaged they had to kill many of them because there became too many of them.  I believe a number of rules were changed by the BLM and perhaps even the EPA to squeeze Bundy.  I tend to agree with this crusty old bastard's opinion about the bureaucrats.  

One question I have is and has been what is the problem?  This is desert scrub fit only to graze cattle at a cost to the rancher.  He resents the .fedgov wanting his money that they have shown to use in the normal way the government uses our money; badly. The government really has no good reason for making an issue out of this and certainly could have made some allowances for a cantankerous family of hard scrabble ranchers that have been doing this in that family for 140 years.

I say it stinks and I frankly don't give a rats behind what a judge says and any reasoning behind pushing the situation.  Over 3 million dollars down the crap hole, behavior by the BLM that confirms a lot of opinion, and the government once again opens the door to the incomprehensible nastiness that comes out of Washington DC.

We are surrounded by evidence of the federal government out of control and some of you are waffling about this incident which is au priori more government stupid on display.  Watching the BLM boys cutting and running and not even having the courage to walk away like a man, but rather back up with weapons at port arms, in the presence of unarmed Americans flying our flag, was disgraceful and more evidence of how far our leadership has allowed our nation to embarass itself.

[Regolith]

One question I have is and has been what is the problem?  This is desert scrub fit only to graze cattle at a cost to the rancher. 

You ever see an area of "desert scrub" that's been overgrazed? It ain't pretty, and it leads to native plants being replaced by invading species such as cheat grass, which burns far more readily than native species, which in turn worsens fire seasons. It also causes heavy erosion, which can take the form of very large and blinding dust storms.

Nevada has been seriously overgrazed for the past 100 or so years, due to a combination of the "tragedy of the commons", poor management by the federal government, and a "don't give a *expletive deleted*it" attitude by many of the ranchers (which I guess ties back into the "tragedy of the commons"). There aren't any good guys in this situation.

[freakazoid]

What's the problem? Clearly the problem is because he is a loon. And all these loon militia folks. And this loon James Yeager. And this loon Porter Rockwell. And all these loon local people who are supporting him.

[Perd Hapley]

my bet is a bunch of folks ending up bankrupt and or in jail. they shoulda snuck in after blm left and got the beef.  they got froggy and i suspect that was the last in a series of bad moves. they will get arrested one by one and now it won't just be bundys family fubar.  actions have consequences

I wouldn't be the first to point out that a link you posted doesn't support what you intended it to.

took a sec    well 30
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/nevada/blm-releases-bundy-cattle-after-protesters-block-southbound-i-15

The link just refers to the showdown between the protestors/ranchers/militia, and the BLM, though it does say that the Sheriff's Deputies were also there, and mentions "rifles pointing toward each side." Which may or may not support the idea that they took the cattle "at gunpoint."

You're claiming that the BLM backed down, and then Bundy led an armed posse in to threaten the Sheriff's men and take the cattle. The link you posted states that the BLM only agreed to go away after a group of people (seemingly armed, but not led by Bundy) demanded the return of the cattle. In fact, it says the feds/cops were planning to start the shooting match, and not the other way around.

But all that aside; yes I agree (I already predicted) that Bundy, et al, will probably be arrested and tried for something. Probably several somethings. I figured they would have done it today, to take advantage of the weekend lull in the news cycle.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

I'd expect them to break him and his family first then lock him up if he hasn't killed himself. Look for asset seizures first. His family will end up broke

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[roo_ster]

After reading all that i am struck by an oddity and a similarity to other incidents.  That being that many folk insist that the target of govt action be pure as the driven snow and to have hewed to marquis of queensbjry rules while the govt has fought dirty for decades.  That if the target is in any way imperfect it somehow illegitimates his actions and legitimates govt action against him.

A rancher in bfe nevada is zero threat to me and mine.  Otoh govt are bureaucritters paid with my tax dollars to be threats.  In my estimation the burden of right and straight  conduct lies on govt.  That skeevy dealings on their part make their actions illegitimate. 

To hell with wishing for an asteroid.  That is lazy nonjudgementalism.  If the rancher does his worst he starves via mismanagement.  If the govt does its worst it is emboldened and more likely to do the same again.

[mtnbkr]

And this loon Porter Rockwell.

Porter Rockwell is dead.

Chris

[Boomhauer]

After reading all that i am struck by an oddity and a similarity to other incidents.  That being that many folk insist that the target of govt action be pure as the driven snow and to have hewed to marquis of queensbjry rules while the govt has fought dirty for decades.  That if the target is in any way imperfect it somehow illegitimates his actions and legitimates govt action against him.

A rancher in bfe nevada is zero threat to me and mine.  Otoh govt are bureaucritters paid with my tax dollars to be threats.  In my estimation the burden of right and straight  conduct lies on govt.  That skeevy dealings on their part make their actions illegitimate. 

To hell with wishing for an asteroid.  That is lazy nonjudgementalism.  If the rancher does his worst he starves via mismanagement.  If the govt does its worst it is emboldened and more likely to do the same again.

Im in no way insisting on "pure as the wind driven snow" but those who resort to deceit to gain support for their cause can go to hell.

 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Im in no way insisting on "pure as the wind driven snow" but those who resort to deceit to gain support for their cause can go to hell.

 

and those who indulge in self delusion so they can roleplay with them can ride to heck on their horse right next to them

[RoadKingLarry]

You two need to get a room.

[makattak]

Porter Rockwell is dead.

Chris

SEE!!! THE GOVERNMENT HAS STARTED THEIR RETRIBUTION ALREADY!!!11!!1!


(Do I really need a sarc tag for this?)

[Ron]

After reading these two articles I would say this is nothing more than the death throes of a way of life the government has purposed to stamp out. What is legally correct and what is morally correct, as is so often the case when dealing with Fed.gov are two different things.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/04/standoff-at-bundy-ranch-ends-with-photo-of-the-year-so-far.php

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/04/12/The-Saga-of-Bundy-Ranch

[Tallpine]

You ever see an area of "desert scrub" that's been overgrazed? ....

I'm trying to figure out why you think multiple generations of the same ranch family would overgraze the land?  It's in their own best interest to manage it for the long term.

I dunno much about the BLM, but the USFS is mostly morons and power-hungry jack-holes.  They don't give a damn about the resource, only about their career advancement and strutting around telling people what to do and what not to do.

[Balog]

Im in no way insisting on "pure as the wind driven snow" but those who resort to deceit to gain support for their cause can go to hell.

 

Then you will never be able to support anyone for anything. I guess those vile propagandist Colonials using deceit to further insurrection against the Crown really piss you off eh? Screw it, the lefties have been stabbing America in the back for years, let's keep swinging that pillow at them and see if it works any better this time.

[Tallpine]

Even the Mudders held a riot on account of Jayne Cobb.

It don't make no sense.

 

[charby]

I'm trying to figure out why you think multiple generations of the same ranch family would overgraze the land?  It's in their own best interest to manage it for the long term.

I dunno much about the BLM, but the USFS is mostly morons and power-hungry jack-holes.  They don't give a damn about the resource, only about their career advancement and strutting around telling people what to do and what not to do.

I know you still live in the 1960-1970's when the USFS was still operating as Sustainable Yield (Timber) but they have been changed by legislation. If you want to get pissed off, blame people, blame the automobile that allowed people to recreate in the forests. Laws were changed/created because people wanted recreation not timber harvest. Don't blame the USFS.

Most ranchers over graze BLM land, see what Revdisk wrote earlier.

[Tallpine]

I know you still live in the 1960-1970's when the USFS was still operating as Sustainable Yield (Timber) but they have been changed by legislation. If you want to get pissed off, blame people, blame the automobile that allowed people to recreate in the forests. Laws were changed/created because people wanted recreation not timber harvest. Don't blame the USFS.

I'm talking about timber administrators from the 1980s and 1990s.  And I do and will blame them for being idiots, jack-holes, liars, drug addicts, and wife-beaters.

Most ranchers over graze BLM land, see what Revdisk wrote earlier.

Yeah, I'm sure Revdisk is totally knowledgeable about range management 

[charby]

I'm talking about timber administrators from the 1980s and 1990s.  And I do and will blame them for being idiots, jack-holes, liars, drug addicts, and wife-beaters.
Yeah, I'm sure Revdisk is totally knowledgeable about range management 

They had their hands tied by law.

I'm knowledgeable about USFS grazing, and his reply was exactly what I have read and seen about grazing on those lands.

[RevDisk]

I'm talking about timber administrators from the 1980s and 1990s.  And I do and will blame them for being idiots, jack-holes, liars, drug addicts, and wife-beaters.

Yeah, I'm sure Revdisk is totally knowledgeable about range management 

If charby is referring to my post on the first page, GOM, it has little to do with the alchematic dark arts of range management. All I know about range management is keep erosion under control, don't screw up the soil, be sure to use plenty of blood for invoking Great Old Ones and don't screw up water management. There's probably just the one oh one level course, which is exactly not what I was talking about in the previous post.


Dude was not being forced to graze cattle off his personal property. No one held a gun to his head, FORCING him to use public land for personal profit while not paying for it. Dude allegedly wracked up a million bucks in missing fees. On the other hand, you have allegedly a bunch of government land thugs that would better serve our country by working as door greeters at Walmart. Best is to allegedly pray for a meteorite, not cheer government thugs or folks that demand their welfare, er grazing rights. 

Is the government wrong? From a statistics point of view, probably. In this matter? Definitely. They should have just went to court, got a judgment and put a lien on the guy's stuff. Proper way for the grazing entitement guy to do is get a bunch of his buddies together and maybe lobby for a better solution to the problem. Instead of you know, using public land for his own personal gain while shafting the taxpayers.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

They went to court. Dude said meh. Grabbing beef is next step in process. Guy was wrong even if he was white

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[Tallpine]

They had their hands tied by law.

WTF

I'm knowledgeable about USFS grazing, and his reply was exactly what I have read and seen about grazing on those lands.

Funny, I lived for about 20 years right smack in the middle of a bunch of FS grazing.  It was sure as hell not over grazed.  The "pool" (several brands working together) hired a couple of cowboys to keep moving the cattle around between various sub-ranges separated by drift fences.

Dude was not being forced to graze cattle off his personal property.

Well, sure - he could have gone out of business.  Do you have any idea that ranches are bought/sold all over the west, with so many deeded plus usually a much larger number of leased acres?  That's just the way it works and always has.

[KD5NRH]

Most ranchers over graze BLM land, see what Revdisk wrote earlier.

Simple solution; shut down BLM, turn over land actually being used for something helpful to NPS, and sell the rest, with lease holders having first option.

Texas has very little "public" land, and hasn't really suffered for it.