Author Topic: Need .45 Advice  (Read 3235 times)

Leatherneck

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Need .45 Advice
« on: November 23, 2006, 02:14:14 AM »
What to buy?

It will be a Christmas present for my Son-in-law, who is an Army Blackhawk pilot, father of two of my Grandsons, and here temporarily between Middle East deployments.

This obviously won't be cheap, but I want to get him a replacement concealed-carry weapon fot the POS he now carries. So: 1911-style preferred, compact, and something that will function reliably and be as accurate as a 1911 can be. I have an SA full-size 1911A1 that I like, but it's pretty hefty. Are there good cut-down 1911s on the market?

What do you like?

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Ron

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Re: Need .45 Advice
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2006, 03:21:28 AM »
How small and how light?

I have a Rock River Arms (not to be confused with Rock Island Arms) in the Commander size.

This is a steel gun with standard frame and 4 1/4" barrel. I have just over 3k rounds through it with no issues and it is dead nuts accurate. It is a bit pricey and there is probably a wait to get one.

It is now my primary shooter, it has replaced my Springfield TRP as my main gun.

The little 1911's are something of a gamble from what I've read over the years. Many have no problems but quite a few do.



Preacherman

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Re: Need .45 Advice
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2006, 03:42:15 AM »
I've seen very many small 1911's ("small" being defined as "smaller than Commander size") give all sorts of problems.  The impression I've formed is that while there are those that are reliable, it's a crap-shoot - you pays your money and you takes your chances.  Even custom gunsmiths find it difficult to get some of them running.

May I suggest an alternative?  It might sound heretical, but I really like the Taurus PT145.  It holds 10+1 rounds of .45, is dead-nuts reliable in the two that I have, and feedback from instructors (Gunsite-qualified, among others, who know what they're talking about) is that it's proven very reliable on their courses (much more so, in fact, than its bigger brother, the 24/7 in .45).  It's very light and compact, but very controllable, and surprisingly accurate.  Another interesting option is the Springfield XD .45 in the new Compact version (which isn't).  It's still got a full-length 4" or 5" barrel, but a chopped butt, holding 10 rounds instead of the usual 12 or 13.  Full-size mags can still be used with a sleeve if desired.

Just my $0.02 worth.
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Standing Wolf

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Re: Need .45 Advice
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2006, 04:12:35 AM »
Sad to say, Ron has nailed it:

Quote
The little 1911's are something of a gamble from what I've read over the years. Many have no problems but quite a few do.

We have a commander-sized Springfield model 1911 in the case at the gun shop where I work. I've looked at it several times, but can't quite seem to talk myself into buying it.

I think John M. Browning's original 1911 design and Colt's implementation thereof worked so well because a.) Browning was very fortunate, and b.) Colt's tolerances were decidedly loose. I don't mean Browning wasn't a genius at firearms design: merely that what he tried to do really shouldn't have worked at all.

When I compare the model 1911's design with that of, say, Smith & Wesson's K frame revolver's, it amazes me that the model 1911 works at all. The barrel bounces around. The lug has to be fitted just exactly right, or accuracy flies out the window. The feed ramp's polish is critical to feeding. The main spring and hammer strut are rugged, but the leaf spring and sear have always looked awfully improbable to me. The model 1911 seems to have quite a few more parts than the revolver, whose design is about a decade older, and more of those parts are in motion at any given moment.

The "looseness" of Colt's tolerancesI'd personally prefer to call it "sloppiness"seems to have allowed the finicky, complex design to work in the real world with amazing reliability. Both of my 1970s Colt model 1911s were veritable paragons of unreliability, which I think was attributable to the company's effortshaphazard as alwaysto tighten up the gun. Colt model 1911s made for military use in both World War I and World War II seem to have decidedly loose tolerances, which resulted in the desired reliability at the cost of match-type accuracy. Five- and six-inch groups at 50 yards are good enough for battle, whereas bullseye shooters want one- and two-inch groups at that same distance.

Modern high end model 1911s such as those made by Rock River rely on extremely tight tolerances for accuracy, plus lots of gunsmithing voodoo magic for reliability. My first series Kimber, circa 2001, is everything my Colt Gold Cups weren't; in fact, topped with a Kimber .22 long rifle slide, it's both a match quality .45 and equally accurate, equally reliable .22.

It seems to me the minute manufacturers start altering the fundamental design of the model 1911, they radically complicate an already complicated, picky pistol. Shorten the barrel an inch? That changes everything. Lighten the slide an ounce and a half? Again, since all the parts are completely interdependent, that trivial-looking alteration means everything else has to be tweaked. Lighten the trigger and and remove nearly all the creep? Well, suddenly, the multiple-function leaf spring no longer works the way it used to.

Some manufacturers invest the time and effort required to contend with all the variables that suddenly have been altered; unfortunately, most appear to believe they can whittle a little off here, shorten a bit there, tighten things up here, loosen them up there, and still turn out top quality pistols. Current production series 2 Kimbers, especially the compact models, have a well-earned reputation for being only fairly reliable. Our brand new shrunken-framed Springfield EMP 9 millimeter pistol doesn't seem to be able to feed more than about 50 rounds before requiring a thorough cleaning. I personally might be willing to trust a Rock River commander-sized model 1911, but only after I'd put at least 500 rounds through it with zero problems, and more likely 1,000. I wouldn't be at all surprised if such a gun required some ultra-fine tuning by a super-competent gunsmith; even then, it might need more than one trip to the shop.

I think our expectations of model 1911 pistols exceed the design's inherent capabilities. The best manufacturers seem to do an outstanding job of meeting most of our unrealistic expectations most of the time in most waysbut I've never heard of a K frame revolver that needed even 2% of the tender, loving care that's lavished on 1911 pistols.

I wouldn't be surprised if Rock River, along with the custom shops at Kimber, Springfield, Les Baer, and a few others, too, would expedite production of a firearm destined for use by a soldier in Iraq.

If I were going to carry a .45 ACP pistol in a hostile environment, I believe I'd look long and hard at the Springfield XD. We rent them where I work. They do and don't get cleanedmainly don't. They're ugly, of course, and made of plastic, but a.) they just keep on keeping on, and b.) they seem to be every bit as accurate as model 1911s hot-rodded for bullsye shooting. The grip safety impresses me as ludicrous, but even with that complication, the guts of the pistol seem much more straightforward and rugged than the model 1911's.

Personally, I've never had enough faith in the .45 ACP cartridge to carry anything chambered for it. It's never impressed me as having the inherent accuracy of .44 caliber rounds, nor do I consider it a one-shot stopper. I'm willing to shoot bullseye with it, but stake my life on it? I've considerably more faith in the .357 and .44 magnums.
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The Rabbi

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Re: Need .45 Advice
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2006, 04:23:41 AM »
SIG P245  grin
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Leatherneck

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Re: Need .45 Advice
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2006, 04:33:07 AM »
Good insights; keep it coming please!

Looks like I'll have some shopping to do tomorrow! grin

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lupinus

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Re: Need .45 Advice
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2006, 05:27:15 AM »
If you want to spend the change, a kimber is hard to beat in the price range.

Springfield XD's are very nice as well
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Unisaw

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Re: Need .45 Advice
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2006, 06:23:10 AM »
HK USP 45 Compact.  He will never have any reliability issues.
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BryanP

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Re: Need .45 Advice
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2006, 07:10:46 AM »
I own two .45's.  The first is my SIG P220A that I thought was my Favorite Gun Ever.   Recently I lucked into One Helluva Deal(tm) on a Springfield XD-45. 

The SIG has been feeling rather neglected.  I suspect that if finances (or space) ever become a real issue I'll sell the P220A before the XD.

I haven't had a chance to examine the compact version.  I'll agree with Preacherman that Taurus guns are highly underrated.  For CCW I'll stick with my S&W 638, but if I just had to have a .45 I'd look seriously at the PT145. 
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Lobotomy Boy

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Re: Need .45 Advice
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2006, 07:24:52 AM »
I really wanted to buy a compact 1911, but every one I tried at the range, whether well-worn rental or brand-new distributor demo, has given me problems. It sounds like your son-in-law will be trusting his life to this gun. In that case, aesthetics have to take a back seat to proven reliability. A Sig is fine, but a bit heavy, the XD is a fine choice, but if you want ultimate compactness combined with ultimate reliability, you can't beat a Glock 30.
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Leatherneck

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Re: Need .45 Advice
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2006, 01:24:44 PM »
OK, but of all the NDs we hear about, it seems to me that a disproportionate share of them are Glocks. I believe the weapons work as designed, and in careful hands, are no more dangerous than any other gun. But if I have to choose between a gun you have to be extra careful with, and one that requires only normal care, I think I'll go with the safer/easier route. But thanks.

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Dannyboy

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Re: Need .45 Advice
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2006, 04:08:18 PM »
HK USP 45 Compact.  He will never have any reliability issues.
I'll second that.  Unfortunately, the HK Compacts...aren't.  Except when compared to full size HK's.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Need .45 Advice
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2006, 05:37:11 PM »
What do you want the gun to accomplish?

My CCW gun, a Caspian Officer's ACP with tapered cone (bushingless) sleeved 3.5" barrel. It packs 7+1 rounds of .45 ACP, and is not much bigger than my other CCW autopistol, a Kahr K9. I bought the frame and slide from Caspian, and had the gun built to my specs with off-the shelf parts, namely Kart, Videcki, Ed Brown, Wilson, and so forth. Despite the severe barrel tilt angle during cycling, it experiences no real problems to speak of, but it is a hard gun on recoil springs - so they get changed fairly often with Wolff 24 pound versions.

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Need .45 Advice
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2006, 06:26:19 PM »
What's wrong with a basic commander or officer's model 1911? 

(Does anyone even make an officer's model 1911 anymore?  I see plenty of full-sized, commander sized, and micro-miniaturized guns in the stores, but none that are officer's model sized...)

Lobotomy Boy

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Re: Need .45 Advice
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2006, 07:00:18 PM »
Quote
Quote
OK, but of all the NDs we hear about, it seems to me that a disproportionate share of them are Glocks.
Do tell some more about "all the NDs we hear about." Sounds to me like you're listening to unsubstantiated old wives' tales.
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Re: Need .45 Advice
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2006, 11:28:21 PM »
I agree with lobot.
They trained me real well to keep my finger off the trigger in the army.
When you said reliable I thought glock.
The only thing you have to remember is to keep finger indexed
untill ready to shoot.
I've seen a video where the guy who drew first in a gun fight
still lost.
In the heat of a battle he forgot to disengage the safety.
point and pull the trigger is really the best.
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The Rabbi

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Re: Need .45 Advice
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2006, 01:48:38 AM »
I shot someone's Kimber recently and really liked it.  Enough to consider carrying one.  Then I took a 1911 to an IDPA match.  In probably every stage of the 4 I forgot to click off the safety.  It only took a milisecond for me to remember, but a milisecond is too long in that situation.
If someone has trained himself on that manual of arms then OK.  But for me it was back to the ole Smith Model 19.
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280plus

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Re: Need .45 Advice
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2006, 04:06:31 AM »
I just read last night about a Springfield Armory "Defender" in .45GAP.  It is compact and IIRC the polymer one weighs in at 24 oz the steel 29 oz. I have no experience with it but it seemed like it may fit the bill for what you're looking for. Mag holds 6 shots and they're saying the GAP is as equally effective as the ACP. Just thought I'd let you know.

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ga_handguns/gap_100705/
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The Rabbi

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Re: Need .45 Advice
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2006, 04:51:15 AM »
.45GAP is the archetypal flash in the pan.  I have wholesalers begging me to take them.  The ammo is expensive and limited.  It doesnt do anything that a .45acp or a .40 can't.
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Lobotomy Boy

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Re: Need .45 Advice
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2006, 04:55:03 AM »
I came from an extremely rural part of the country and still spend as much time there as possible, and I learned to appreciate guns in calibers that are readily available in any podunk hardware store regardless of how many hundred miles it is away from the nearest metropolitan area. The .45 GAP is not one of those calibers, whereas most hardware stores stock .45 ACP. I've held off on getting a 6.8 upper for my AR because I want to see if the ammo remains available for the long haul.
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280plus

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Re: Need .45 Advice
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2006, 05:14:31 AM »
In terms of getting something a little more compact than a .45 ACP but with similar power the .45 GAP looks like a viable alternative as far as I can tell. It was just a suggestion for another avenue to explore. The ammo problems you describe are quite similar to what I experience carrying a .32 H&R snubbie. It hasn't stopped me from owning AND liking it.  grin

Interestingly enough the new .45 dies I received from Dillon are stamped for both .45 ACP AND .45 GAP.
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The Rabbi

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Re: Need .45 Advice
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2006, 05:37:28 AM »
And I thought I was the only one carrying a 32H&R snub.  Great gun and I am sorry it is not more popular.
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280plus

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Re: Need .45 Advice
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2006, 06:00:06 AM »
Now THERE'S a coincidence!  grin

S&W 332 myself...

My concern with the Defender would be no proven reliabilty yet. I'd like to hear from a few that may already own one and see what they have to say about function. 

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280plus

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Re: Need .45 Advice
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2006, 06:16:32 AM »
Oh, I get my .32 H&R from Georgia Arms BTW. 85 gr jhp that does over 1000 fps out the muzzle. Did a telephone book test and they opened up nicely.
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HankB

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Re: Need .45 Advice
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2006, 09:03:23 AM »
Once you get below the "Commander" in size, 1911s are more likely to have reliability issues. True, some mini-guns work just fine, but there seems to be quite a large percentage that doesn't.

Though I haven't seen it personally, some alloy-frame 1911s supposedly have issues with certain types of hollowpoint ammo gouging the feed ramp - some manufacturers have gone to ramped barrels to deal with this on their alloy-framed guns. (I believe Les Baer falls into this category.)

Current Kimbers and Springfields (excluding those with polymer frames) generally seem to work well, as do pistols from Les Baer, Ed $Brown$, and Wilson Combat . . . all need good magazines and good ammo . . . though now thinking about it, I've seen a few Wilsons that seemed to be a bit "picky" about their fodder, which would really annoy me if I spent that kind of money for a gun.

Para-Ordnance pistol reliability was an "iffy" thing - some worked, many didn't - perhaps they've improved lately.

Despite the fact that some worship at the Colt altar, that company has put out more than a few lemons, and their alleged customer service is (to be charitable) often unresponsive.



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