Molon labe and all that

[Monkeyleg]

I've never really paid a lot of attention to ancient history. I knew that Molon Labe was the response given by the Spartan commander to the commander of the Persians.

What I didn't know was that there were just 3,000 Spartans holding off 250,000 Persians, and that the Spartans inflicted such heavy losses that Xerxes, the Persian commander, that Xerxes had to find an alternative strategy to beat them.

I also didn't know that Spartans were raised from childhood to be warriors. Taken from their mothers at age seven, they were subjected to deprivation, rigorous physical training, and military training. They were barely allowed to become fathers. It was thus that they became the fiercest warriors of their time, maybe of all time. They're also the pinnacle of the ideal of the statist society citizen.

More interesting than I would have thought.

[Ben]

https://www.amazon.com/Gates-Fire-Novel-Battle-Thermopylae/dp/055338368X/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

[dogmush]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpUVQ_z6Zcs

[mgdavis]

Steven Pressfield's "Gates of Fire" is an interesting piece of historical fiction that details the life of a Spartan and the events leading up to and including the battle at Thermopylae. I'm not sure how accurate it is, but I think it is worth reading if you're interested in getting some more exposure to the period.

[Perd Hapley]

Don't they teach kids nothin' in school these days? 

The Spartans were pretty tough customers, until the Thebans showed them a thing or two.

[Ron]

Don't they teach kids nothin' in school these days? 

The Spartans were pretty tough customers, until the Thebans showed them a thing or two.

They dropped Theban hammer on them eh?

[Scout26]

Victor Davis Hanson wrote an excellent book with Epaminondas as one of the three great liberators in History.  (Sherman and Patton being the other two.)
And when it comes to ancient Greek history, there is no one that can hold a candle to Mr. Hanson.  10/10 Highly Recommend.
 

https://www.amazon.com/Soul-Battle-Ancient-Liberators-Vanquished/dp/0385720599

[Monkeyleg]

For some reason I've never had much interest in history beyond the 1700's or so. I've known what I needed to know, but wasn't interested in the rest.

Interestingly, it was Victor Davis Hanson who got me interested. As I listened to his lectures on warfare, politics, etc, he compared those to the warfare and politics of ancient Greece and Rome. It made it much more interesting and relevant.

(This coming from a guy who's going to Sicily, where just about everything is ancient Greek, Roman, or Persian).

[MechAg94]

For some reason I've never had much interest in history beyond the 1700's or so. I've known what I needed to know, but wasn't interested in the rest.

Interestingly, it was Victor Davis Hanson who got me interested. As I listened to his lectures on warfare, politics, etc, he compared those to the warfare and politics of ancient Greece and Rome. It made it much more interesting and relevant.

(This coming from a guy who's going to Sicily, where just about everything is ancient Greek, Roman, or Persian).

I know writers like David Drake get a lot of story ideas from various parts of ancient history. 

There is nothing new under the sun.

[MechAg94]

I've never really paid a lot of attention to ancient history. I knew that Molon Labe was the response given by the Spartan commander to the commander of the Persians.

What I didn't know was that there were just 3,000 Spartans holding off 250,000 Persians, and that the Spartans inflicted such heavy losses that Xerxes, the Persian commander, that Xerxes had to find an alternative strategy to beat them.

I also didn't know that Spartans were raised from childhood to be warriors. Taken from their mothers at age seven, they were subjected to deprivation, rigorous physical training, and military training. They were barely allowed to become fathers. It was thus that they became the fiercest warriors of their time, maybe of all time. They're also the pinnacle of the ideal of the statist society citizen.

More interesting than I would have thought.

I don't know if I would call them warriors or soldiers.  I am not sure if they were the greatest individual fighters or not.  I never heard much on that.  I have heard they were rather small even in that day partly due to their treatment as teenagers.  However, they were tough and fought very well in formation.  I will have to look into Hanson's book.  He is a good author. 

I do remember a Military History Magazine article that mentioned some accounts later in Sparta's history.  The military system had gotten a lot more relaxed and they weren't as tough as they had once been.  If I remember right, a small group of Spartan hoplites were cornered on an island where they had no access to fresh water.  They were captured and were ransomed.  The author mentioned that would never have happened only a couple centuries earlier.  Power and wealth will do that to anyone.   

[230RN]

Monkeyleg missed the point:

...
I also didn't know that Spartans were raised from childhood to be warriors. Taken from their mothers at age seven, they were subjected to deprivation, rigorous physical training, and military training. They were barely allowed to become fathers. It was thus that they became the fiercest warriors of their time, maybe of all time...

Well, see, if they were only halfway raised as such fierce warriors under only half those stringent conditions, the Spartans would have needed a whole 6,000 warriors to hold off the 250,000 Persians instead of only 3,000.


Terry, 230RN

[Monkeyleg]

:D

[grampster]

Sparta, Michigan is about 12 miles north west of our house.  No warriors there.  Mostly ridgerunners and similar country boys.  Lots of flannel shirts, pickups and Cat hats.

[Perd Hapley]

Sparta, Michigan is about 12 miles north west of our house.  No warriors there.  Mostly ridgerunners and similar country boys.  Lots of flannel shirts, pickups and Cat hats.

And mah-loan lob-eh is the only Greek they know.

[wmenorr67]

Had you not seen the movie 300?  I know it is fiction but at the same time a decent enough "history" lesson.

[Perd Hapley]

Had you not seen the movie 300?  I know it is fiction but at the same time a decent enough "history" lesson.

I tried, but I didn't feel in the mood for gay porn.

[makattak]

I've never really paid a lot of attention to ancient history. I knew that Molon Labe was the response given by the Spartan commander to the commander of the Persians.

What I didn't know was that there were just 3,000 Spartans holding off 250,000 Persians, and that the Spartans inflicted such heavy losses that Xerxes, the Persian commander, that Xerxes had to find an alternative strategy to beat them.

I also didn't know that Spartans were raised from childhood to be warriors. Taken from their mothers at age seven, they were subjected to deprivation, rigorous physical training, and military training. They were barely allowed to become fathers. It was thus that they became the fiercest warriors of their time, maybe of all time. They're also the pinnacle of the ideal of the statist society citizen.

More interesting than I would have thought.

It is a pretty interesting story. It wasn't 3,000 Spartans, though. It was 300 (referred to by the movie) and about 7,000 other Greeks. Your number on the Persians is in line with most other estimates.

The 300 Spartans (of fame) were the hoplites that stayed behind to cover the retreat of the rest of the Greeks after they had been betrayed and an alternate route provided for the Persians to pass the bottleneck. (The 300 plus about another 700-1700 stayed behind to fight to the death)

DESPITE the movie version, the story is amazing nonetheless. Just 300 or 3000 is still overwhelming odds.

It's also interesting that the Greeks had their own "Benedict Arnold" from this battle. (Or maybe we have our own "Ephialtes" in Benedict Arnold.) From here on in Greek history, his name was synonymous with traitor, just as Benedict Arnold is in ours.

[Monkeyleg]

It is a pretty interesting story. It wasn't 3,000 Spartans, though. It was 300 (referred to by the movie) and about 7,000 other Greeks. Your number on the Persians is in line with most other estimates.

The 300 Spartans (of fame) were the hoplites that stayed behind to cover the retreat of the rest of the Greeks after they had been betrayed and an alternate route provided for the Persians to pass the bottleneck. (The 300 plus about another 700-1700 stayed behind to fight to the death)

DESPITE the movie version, the story is amazing nonetheless. Just 300 or 3000 is still overwhelming odds.





It's also interesting that the Greeks had their own "Benedict Arnold" from this battle. (Or maybe we have our own "Ephialtes" in Benedict Arnold.) From here on in Greek history, his name was synonymous with traitor, just as Benedict Arnold is in ours.

I read about the traitor and the route used by the Persians to circle around to the rear.

[MechAg94]

The biggest thing to me militarily is the Persians didn't have a heavy infantry equivalent to the Greek hoplites.  At least none that were armored and armed as well or who fought as well.  I think when Alexander went East later, the Persians had Ionian Greeks fighting with them among others. 

[cordex]

The biggest thing to me militarily is the Persians didn't have a heavy infantry equivalent to the Greek hoplites.  At least none that were armored and armed as well or who fought as well.

Do you really think a red cape and a sprayed on six-pack are heavy armor?

[Perd Hapley]

Do you really think a red cape and a sprayed on six-pack are heavy armor?