Gun store owners/managers: please give your advice

[Monkeyleg]

This post is long, but I beg your indulgence.

As many THR and TFL members know, I went far out on a limb last year to start what I still believe can be a profitable website, one that gives stores more presence and "findability" than any other.

Originally I had offered a six-month free trial subscription. Well, things usually take longer than anticipated, and this site was no different. I didn't start calling shops to pay until April. I even have some shops that have been on the site for free for over a year.

My fault, not theirs, at least in most cases.

Last summer I told the shop owners I'd contacted that the site would be bringing in 100,000 or more visitors by February or March of this year. That wasn't just a seat-of-my-pants guess; it was based on prior experience with other sites.

I hit that target in March, and traffic continues to grow. I'm now telling shop owners that traffic will be at least 200,000 per month by early next year, and I'm not blowing sunshine up their butts. The traffic will be that, or more.

I also told them that they would receive new customers from the site. I made a point of stressing that I wasn't going to double their sales, just that I would be able to bring in enough new customers to make the $10 a month I charge worth the cost in the short term, and even more worthy long term, as a new customer is solid gold.

I've done that, too, for most of the shops on my site.

Here's the problem, though: I have many, many small shops run by one or two people who've said that they absolutely know they've gotten new customers from the site. Shops in Billings Montana, Tupelo Mississippi, Tucson Arizona, San Bernadino California, and other lesser markets. To say that I'm pleased with the response these stores are getting is an understatement; they're happy, which means that I'm 110% happy.

It's when I call the medium to large shops on my site that renewing for $100 a year becomes an issue. I never, ever expected that. But the owners are so far removed from the day-to-day retail operations, and there's so many salespeople, that I suspect that nobody knows where the new customers are coming from.

I can use simple math to try to explain: Butt's Gun Sales in Billings has had 1,647 people view their (Jack's) page on my site since April 1st. Jack has also told me that he's gotten twenty new customers from my site, and that renewing for $100 was a no-brainer. He doesn't have a website, and said that Gunshopfinder.com was the perfect internet outlet for him.

Larry, the owner of Pontotoc American Arms outside Tupelo Mississippi, has had just 821 people view his page, yet he told me that he's also gotten new customers. And he's sending a check for the one-year subscription renewal.

Meanwhile, I have guys like the owner of a shop in AZ. He's had 6,888 people view his page on my site since April 1st. And his store has a much better inventory of guns and accessories than Butt's or Pontotoc.

The laws of probability would dictate that the AZ shop is getting more new customers from my site than either Butt's or Pontotoc. Anything else flies in the face of logic.

Yet I cannot convince guys like the owner of the AZ shop that it's worth his while to pay $10 a month ($60 for six months, or $100 a year) to help guide those new customers in.

And I'm getting similar flak from other large gun shops. One in Pittsburgh has been putting me through the "committee wringer." I've been calling them since April, and the five people in charge of advertising still haven't decided whether to plunk down $100 for a year of advertisng that I know with 100% certainty has brought them new customers.

A shop owner in Las Vegas is having his kid field his calls and tell me he's not in the store, even though I can hear his voice in the background. This even though he's gotten 5,115 people viewing his page and, trust me, he's gotten some new customers. If a shop is having money problems, I understand. There's nothing new in that. How about paying me in the fall, when business picks up, rather than try to stiff me?

Meanwhile, I've got a guy like Vaughn Beals who operates a very small retail gun store in Jersey Shore, PA. His retail store is only open a few evenings a week. The rest of the time he spends creating 1,000-yard precision rifles. And he renewed immediately. He's gotten calls from customers who'd never heard of him before, and got sales.

And then there's the owner of another shop in the East. His name is Mark. I called him back in March, and he told me to send an invoice for a full year. I called a month later and he said he'd lost it. I mailed another. Called a month later, and he said he'd forward it to his accountant. Called a month later, and he told me to fax a copy and he'd write a personal check. I still haven't seen payment. I'm going to have to take him off the site.

Here's yet another example. I called the owner of a shop in South Carolina. Amazingly enough, he said he was about to call me because they had changed their hours. They're no longer open on Wednesdays. And some guy drove a gazillion miles to visit the store on a Wednesday, only to find them closed. The guy left a printout of the shop's page from my site, along with a scathing note on the back.

Naturally, I changed the shop's hours on the site immediately (which the owner can do with his own username and password from any computer in the world). I then asked him about renewing. He said that he hadn't seen anybody come into his shop and mention my site. I told him he just did, but he didn't take the site seriously enough to update his hours. And that, if he got one note from a ticked-off customer, he's probably seen many more customers from my site who haven't told him where they found him.

What is it with these guys? Are the owners of the medium to large-sized shops so flush with cash that they don't care about getting two or five or ten new repeat customers?

If so, then they aren't like my friend who owns a pretty upscale shop here in Milwaukee. If he has a new customer, he'll keep the store open two hours after closing time if it means that he can make a sale.

My previous bleats on this subject on this forum have resulted in pretty much the same advice: retailers need to be reminded of what they're going to lose, not what they're going to gain.

Well, it's almost impossible to prove to someone like the owners of the shop in AZ what they've lost. All I can do is get another shop in their area, and then let them know how many new customers the new shop has received.

The problem with that is that it takes weeks to get a new shop on the site: everyone from the owner to the janitor has to OK going with the free trial. You'd think I was trying to sell them anthrax.

Meanwhile, I'm losing time getting new shops in cities and states I don't already have.

So, for those of you who either own or manage  gun stores, can I ask you for any and all advice on how to get these store owners to pay the $10 a month?

I'm doing everything I set out to do, I've delivered on every promise I made, I've met every target, and I'm bringing these shops new customers.

By the way, this isn't a whine. If gun store owners don't see the value of what my site provides, then I'll work on other sites that sell fuzzy pink bunny slippers, or fresh bloody red roadkill meat.

If I can get ranked #1 on Google for "New York gun shops" or "New York gun stores"  out of over 5,000,000 results--and I've been amazingly successful at getting websites ranked highly on search engines for several years--I can just abandon gun store owners and go where there's better money.

Problem is, I love guns and the idea of promoting the gun industry. And I don't even own a pair of fuzzy pink bunny slippers.

[Jacobus Rex]

I'm not a gun store owner; however, I did have an FFL in the good old days :-)  I'm currently an IT administrator.  From my experience, marketing is an odd animal.  We used to beg people to buy banners on our site for $50 a month.  We had to discount or give away most of the half dozen or so that we had.  Later, I made the suggestion that we raise the rates by 8 times to see what happened.  We now have 15 advertisers paying up to $400 per month for the very same banner ads.  Go figure.  Sometimes things can be so cheap that they have little perceived value.

[K Frame]

First off, I think you're leaving shops on your site for FAR too long while they dither around and try to decide whether to pay you or not.

Second, from my limited experience, the larger the shop, and with more customers, the higher the overhead and insurance costs (often expodentially), so that could be a sticking point.

It would probably also help if you had something on every page of your site asking the people who view it and who visit these gun stores if they would either verbally tell the clerk where he found the information, or even give them a page to print out and take along. A hit and miss kind of thing, but it might get some of these shop owners to see the value.

[Greg L]

My first reaction was to say "screw it, delist them" but now I'm not sure.  I went to the site for the first time this morning (looks quite good btw) & browsed around a bit.  You had nobody listed near me (not all that surprising given the quality of shops around here).  As a casual consumer using your service I wouldn't have been too impressed as I could have gotten more information from the yellow pages (not a slam on you Dick or my own personal opinion, just what my neighbor would think if I sent him there for information).  

The problem with delisting someone if there aren't a couple other options in the area is that it makes YOU look smaller & less marketable/effective to others that you want to sign up.  

Solution?  I don't know.  If it were me I would probably just send them a statement every month with the charges.  If you occasionally get one to pay it will cover the postage costs for the others.  That way it will free up your time to go get new shops in different areas or competition in his area.  However once you have at least one other option for the consumer in their general geographic area I would delist them if they still haven't paid.

[mfree]

If you post monthly charges, make sure that you include hit rates, etc.

[Monkeyleg]

GregL, you've described my dilemna exactly: I need to have enough shops on the site to interest visitors. In some states such as Kentucky it's already difficult to recruit shops. No slam on the South, but it's been tough a tough sell in states like KY, TN, AR, GA, and so on.

So, if I get a shop that cancels, especially a shop in a major metropolitan area, I can't just remove it. I need to spend time getting a new shop to replace it. And that takes time away from getting shops in other areas.

If the site wasn't doing what I intended it to do--meaning bringing the subscribing shops new customers--I'd hang it up. But the fact is that the site is working for the majority of the shops I have. For some shops it's working even better than others.

Mike, last December I had a contest. You may not have seen it since I don't think you weren't posting on THR or TFL then. It was a $500 gun store shopping spree contest. All a participant had to do was print out a shop's page from my site, or just write down the shop's name, address and city. Then visit the shop, and have a sales person sign the paper. The winner of the drawing got a $500 gift certificate to the shop he visited. Response was poor, though. Some people complained that $500 was much too low for them to mail an entry.

There are shops I know with absolute certainty have gotten new customers. One--Bullock's Guns N More in Genessee, MI--had a THR member stop in for the first time last summer. The THR member bought a S&W revolver and a pistol, and he let me know about it. He also told the sales guy he found the store on my site.

But when I called the owner a couple of months ago to renew, he didn't think he'd gotten any new customers. When I gave him the customer's name, and the date of the sale, he changed  his mind. It was a Saturday, and he's not there on Saturday's. Nobody told him.

I've toyed with the idea of some kind of percentage-off promotion, but the cost would have to be paid by me at a time when I can't afford it, or by the owners. And I can't see asking the owners to spend money to gauge the effectiveness of a $10 a month ad.

One industry newsletter has already done an article on my site, and the article is going to be printed again in Firearms Industry News. Those articles, and some other publicity, have really helped.

If all this sounds like a whine, I'm sorry. I knew going in that it would be a tough project to get off the ground, but one that had potential. I still believe in the potential, but need a way to streamline getting shops on the site and getting the owners to pay.

If the site were devoted to golf courses or topless joints, I'd be raking in the money. The owners of those businesses seem to understand the value of internet advertising. For some reason, gun store owners by and large do not.

[Dave]

I'm a business consultant. So perhaps I can give you some pointers.
If you approached me to spend money, the first question I have is how many people do you drive to my store. Let's say you're bringing 10 new customers, prove it? How do you do that.
Also, remember in med to large shops 10 new customers might not even be noticed unless somebody's looking for it. You need to generate proof that you're delivering on the goods.
Yes, as has been pointed out you could be too cheap. The problem is if you're getting a good return from the smaller ones you don't want to lose them.
Pricing is a tough nut to crack too, just like marketing.

[Monkeyleg]

dpesec, please don't think I'm not aware of the accountability problem already.

As I explained before, the only way to even begin to demonstrate accountability is to do some sort of promotion, either paid for by me, or by the retailer. At the $10 a month price I've established, it seems out of the question to offer customer incentives attractive enough to get people to say, "hey, I saw your shop on Gunshopfinder.com!"

It would require me to spend more than I'm taking in, or require the shop to spend more than they already are.

On the other hand, most shops assume that they must spend money to be in the yellow pages. Here in Milwaukee, the yellow pages book has roughly 1,500 pages, only one or two of which feature gun stores. A single-line listing costs about $25 a month, and a business-card sized display ad costs hundreds per month.

SBC Ameritech can tell their advertisers how many people get the Yellow Pages delivered to their homes. But they can't tell advertisers how many people looked at their ad. Sure, people may see ads for gun shops as they thumb through looking for anything from gerbels to gutters, but that doesn't deliver accountability.

I can tell the shop owners exactly how many people have looked at their page on my site in the last four months. And the people who look at these pages aren't interested in gerbels or gutters: they're interested in guns and the shops that sell them.

"Also, remember in med to large shops 10 new customers might not even be noticed unless somebody's looking for it."

Precisely. I just had another Montana shop owner renew today for a full year. He runs a one-man store, and he told me he's had customers come in that he could identify as coming from my site. He's the only guy there.

The problem is, the owner of the store wants those ten or so new customers. At least the smart store owners do. The sales people are more detached. Ten or so new customers can add a thousand, two thousand, or more dollars to the profits. Show me a business owner who wouldn't like to pocket a couple more thousand dollars--even if it just pays for a few months car payments--and I'll show you an idiot.

"If you approached me to spend money, the first question I have is how many people do you drive to my store."

If you don't tell your salespeople to keep track and report on the response from my site, direct mail, radio advertising, and other promotions, then you won't know diddly.

Here's how I currently address that objection, and please feel free to criticize: I tell the owner how many people he's had view his page since April 1st; I also tell him how many new customers shops like Butt's in Billings, MT have received with far fewer viewers; I tell him that he runs a much larger shop with more to offer in a market that is more internet-savvy.

I then say: the number of people interested in gun shops visiting my site will be well over a million this year, and over two million by this time next year. You're not running some hole-in-the-wall sawdust joint. With all the advantages that you have over the really small shops on our site--shops that know they are getting customers-- what are the odds that nobody would be interested in your store? What are the odds that you won't even get enough customers interested in your store to cover the $10 a month cost? What are the odds that, once a new customer stops in, he's not going to become a regular? Bill (Bob, whatever), the odds of you getting new customers from my site are as close to 100% as you can get.

Maybe that's not the right sales pitch. I'm not a salesman.

Again, this thread isn't supposed to be a whine-fest. The site is doing as well or better than I'd planned. The number of visitors keeps climbing. The number of repeat visitors is also encouraging: anywhere from 39% to 42% return at least once every month.

The rate of growth in visitors is really encouraging: August looks like it will have 30% more visitors than in July, which had 25% more than in June. And this is a slow time for internet sites, especially gun sites. Come September, things should really boom.

And my shops are getting new customers. Even in the Dog Days of Summer. What more could you ask for?

I ask all of these questions on this forum because I can't ask my insurance agent, or the owner of the internet hosting company I use, or my father, or anyone else. I can only ask for opinions from people who are into guns, who are involved in guns for a living, and who use the internet often to get information about guns.

Thanks again for indulging me.

[cfabe]

Monkeyleg, I think you have a valuable service to offer. Ultimately, though, you're not going to be able to convince all the gun store owners to pay up. I think the 'pitch' you use where you refer to other stores that are tracking sales is weak, but I don't really have a better suggestion. I agree that you may be under pricing yourself. For the shops that don't pay up, I'd suggest leaving their listing in the site but removing their detailed webpage. Just put up name, city, and perhaps phone number.

I also think you need to be agressively adding more shops. I'm from ohio, and looking at the map I see only a few shops in the entire state. I would suggest adding the same minimal listing as non-paying shops get for any shop you can find. Either go through the telephone listings, or if such is available, buy a list of gun shops from someone. I see this as your biggest problem, that there just aren't many shops listed yet.

[cfabe]

Here's an illustration of what I mean. I just did a google search for "gun shops cleveland". The top thing that shows up is google's "local results for gun shops near cleveland, oh". Your website is next thing below it (although it's a link to the texas webpage, not the ohio one, but there's a cleveland in texas too). However the google local links show me 40+ shops just in the greater cleveland area, sorted by distance from downtown cleveland. In this area, your website lists 2 shops. Interesting to note, though, that one of the shops listed on the google local pages has your site as a reference, maybe you could exploit this somehow?

[CatsDieNow]

Can you offer some kind of "premimum" listing for those shops willing to pony up the money, and just a name, address, and phone number for those who aren't?

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

Dick,  you ARE onto a good thing.  If you can weather the growing pains, I do see how this could support you the rest of your life...eventually.

Most gunners and gunshops seem to be less than "cutting edge" in adopting technology.  That said, you are addressing a totally untapped market for many of these store owners.  

What *I* would do is 3-fold:
1) contact several of the stores who you know to have experienced new business as a direct result of listing with you, and ask them to take a minute and write or just tell you (capture it somehow--record w/their permission, take notes) a quote that details "as a direct result of my advertising on Gunfinder, we have seen a xx% increase in monthly sales, adding an additional $xxx in profits.  This works out to a xx% ROI for my ad dollars spent.  I would HIGHLY recommend anyone in the firearms business to work with Gunfinder to tap the internet for gun shoppers -- a market we were totally missing until now."   I'm sure you have developed some EXTREMELY good and willing shop owner contacts, who would be happy to lend their names to such an endorsement.

2) develop a SHORT 'satisfaction survey' that you can send out to those you know have gotten good hits from your site, and leverage comments and data from those in the same way-- "testimonials".

3)  I personally know of 3 gunshops right here in "mayberry RFD", yet I don't think you have a single listing in Alabama.  One is a top-shelf organization, run by a National Guard current member and Special Forces retiree.  If you have, or can develop some bullet pointed one-page marketing blurb that states the benefits of a listing with Gunfinder, (tapping the explosive internet market, 'net users have high disposable income, people LOOKING for a gunshop and not just a shotgun approach like Yellow Pages (in other words, Targeted Marketing), I KNOW if I was to approach him, he'd be on-board.  How many of us could do the same?

Most of us could just go in and say "I know a gun-guy who's put this website together, and some of the gunshops listed with him are getting LOTS of new business.  Here's the info.  Call him or let me know if it looks like something you could benefit from, and I'll have him call you."

Incumbent on you is putting the testimonials and FAQ together in a persuasive handout.

May not be real high-tech, but we built a fundraising business back in the '80's to a point where we were doing 200 shows annually and 2.4 million per year using the strength of testimonials in exactly the same way.  Almost makes me wish I could jump in and help develop this, but my plate is full.

I WILL approach my local guy, though.  Others would probably do the same once you have an FAQ/piece of marketing material.

[Monkeyleg]

Thanks for the comments. CatsDieNow (BTW, that's a great username), I was offering the free basic listings, but decided it was cluttering up the pages. Besides, that kind of info can be found anywhere.

The testimonials page is in the works. I have more than enough shop owners who will agree to be quoted. Since the majority of the shops I contact ask me to email them information before they decide to try out the site, it will be a simple matter of adding a link.

I realize there are no shops in Alabama, and not enough in Ohio as well. I've contacted some Ohio shops, but trying to get the owner when he's not too busy to talk is tough. I have a long list of shops to call that were either recommended by THR members or who contacted me to be on the site. But nobody has the time to talk.

One reason why there's no shops in Alabama is that not many visitors are looking for Alabama shops. I look at my web stats, see where the visitors are going, and make those states a priority. But I also keep the less-visited states in mind when trying to find new shops.

Initially I thought I'd be able to get five new shops a day. Wrong.

So, between getting new shops and getting the exisiting ones to pay, and also working freelance as a photographer to make ends meet, I'm stretched pretty thin. This will take time.

Incredibly, the two shops that I invoiced back in March paid today. I called them and politely said that I really wanted to keep them on the site, but needed payment to do so. They both gave me credit card numbers.

The Google Local Results may be robbing me of some visitors, but Google doesn't offer much more information than can be found in a phone book. And the purpose of my site is precisely to give more information than can be found in a phone book.

I got the idea for this site back in 2003, when I was approaching golf courses in Wisconsin to do web sites for them. I got rejected time after time, because there are sites for golf courses that give an enormous amount of information: photos, maps of the greens, cart rental rates, info about the restaurant or bar, etc. I'd bet those sites charge a couple of hundred a month for such detailed information.

When I realized that there was nothing similar for gun shops, I thought I'd give it a try. If I can keep the shops that are paying me now and continue to add more, it will turn into a nice income. All I have to do is figure out how to make the owners aware of the fact that they're getting customers, and that new customers are worth $10 a month.