Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: just Warren on February 03, 2021, 10:39:30 PM
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Three dead because people just can't let things go. (https://abcnews.go.com/US/pennsylvania-neighbors-dead-fight-snow-shoveling-authorities/story?id=75666109)
Why let something like this get to this point?
It wasn't the snow-shovelling directly, it was a long-simmering feud that ended that night.
I don't what the local authorities could have done to mitigate the behavior of either party previous to this incident but maybe at least try?
Maybe there's an NGO that could help out?
Maybe get together with some neighbors to act as intermediaries to smooth things over?
I don't have a definite answer for solving the issue, but I do know that gunning down two people and then killing yourself is NOT the answer.
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Why we can't have nice things reason #542,440,026
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Never mind -- please delete
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If words didn't do it, filming the snow dumping and calling the local constabulary would have been my next step.
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If words didn't do it, filming the snow dumping and calling the local constabulary would have been my next step.
Not justifying capping the couple at all, but in many places that would be useless. Cops are often very busy with real crimes. They *might* come take a report, but they are unlikely to do anything substantive over a civil matter. Petty crimes just don't get cops attention more than a report and/or stern warning. At least that's been my experience.
He could have sued the couple, but that would be expensive, and you would need to show damages.
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So would that be the equivilent of dumping raked leaves on someone else's yard? No experience with shoveling snow myself.
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So would that be the equivilent of dumping raked leaves on someone else's yard? No experience with shoveling snow myself.
It's similar. The difference is the snow will go away on its own.
Did the neighbor have anywhere else to put the snow, and what part of the yard were they putting it on? IMHO it might be quite reasonable to shovel snow onto the edge of someone else's yard but they should offer something in return. (help them shovel the end of their driveway, bring over fresh cookies, or something like that)
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That's just messed up. I've never heard of any complaining about snow being dumped in their yard unless it buries what was shoveled/blown or need to be shoveled/blown.
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All we are hearing about is the triggering event and outcome.
We don't know anything about the actual cause(s) that led to the final outcome.
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My guess is that it's something that's been going on for years between them, and with a little bit of crazy on both sides.
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My guess is that it's something that's been going on for years between them, and with a little bit of crazy on both sides.
It probably started with a fence or a barking dog. Those seem to be common points of contention.
bob
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Violent video.
https://thetruedefender.com/video-man-murders-two-pa-neighbors-over-snow-shoveling-disputeall-caught-on-camera/
It seems someone's mouth wrote a check their ass couldn't cash. Or do we want to use the poke a sleeping bear analogy? Either was this was building for a while it seems.
bob
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He didn't just shoot them in the heat of the moment he flat out made sure they were dead.
For those who may not want to watch the video, and you may not, he first comes out with a hand gun and shoots both of them and then goes back into his house and brings out what appears to be an AR and shoots them again with the rifle. After he goes back into his house you can hear a gunshot
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Also I should add he appears to point the rifle at two men who showed up to help the two on the ground while he was in his house getting the rifle and they take off
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He didn't just shoot them in the heat of the moment he flat out made sure they were dead.
For those who may not want to watch the video, and you may not, he first comes out with a hand gun and shoots both of them and then goes back into his house and brings out what appears to be an AR and shoots them again with the rifle. After he goes back into his house you can hear a gunshot
That's the SECOND thing he did. The first thing he did was come out unarmed and got in a shouting match and was verbally antagonized. Then when he came out for the second time, with a gun, they continued to antagonize him until he opened fire.
Don't leave out precipitating events and facts when summarizing a video for other people.
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That's the SECOND thing he did. The first thing he did was come out unarmed and got in a shouting match and was verbally antagonized. Don't leave out precipitating events and facts when summarizing a video for other people.
That wasn't my intent. The intent was to summarize why it may disturb some
But yelling back and forte is no excuse to what amounted to an execution of two people
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That wasn't my intent.
But yelling back and forte is no excuse to what amounted to an execution of two people
And continuing to curse at someone pointing a gun at you giving you one last chance to shut up is just plain retarded. Zero self preservation instinct in both of them.
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And continuing to curse at someone pointing a gun at you giving you one last chance to shut up is just plain retarded. Zero self preservation instinct in both of them.
No argument there, but still not an excuse
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No argument there, but still not an excuse
I don't think anyone has made any. Pointing out how two people utterly failed is not the same as declaring their demise was just.
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My intent was to summarize why the video may disturb some, that is all. It actually disturbed me more than most with the way he coldly executed both of them
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My intent was to summarize why the video may disturb some, that is all. It actually disturbed me more than most with the way he coldly executed both of them
Not the descriptor I'd use either. He was clearly enraged based on what he yelled at them during the coup de gras. Cold blooded is reserved for calculated/premeditated murder. If he hadn't killed himself this would be Murder 2 or whatever the local unpremeditated murder statute is.
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Not the descriptor I'd use either. He was clearly enraged based on what he yelled at them during the coup de gras. Cold blooded is reserved for calculated/premeditated murder. If he hadn't killed himself this would be Murder 2 or whatever the local unpremeditated murder statute is.
He went beck and got another gun after emptying the handgun and then proceeded to stand over and shoot both while they were on the ground. That's a cold blooded execution in my book.
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And continuing to curse at someone pointing a gun at you giving you one last chance to shut up is just plain retarded. Zero self preservation instinct in both of them.
Yup. This is not something someone deserves to be shot over, but the - I won't call them victims - the first two deceased appear to have been idiots. According to the article, this wasn't just shoveling snow into your neighbor's bordering yard. It said they shoveled the snow all the way across the street to put it in his yard.
From what I saw, they had big mouths daring him to shoot them. When the guy's pointing the gun at you, maybe it's time to STFU.
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He went beck and got another gun after emptying the handgun and then proceeded to stand over and shoot both while they were on the ground. I would call a cold blooded psychotically angry execution.
"All you had to do was shut your mou--BANG BANG!!" Dude was seriously pissed off.
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I just view the fact he took the time to go get another gun for clearly no other purpose than to make sure they were dead as cold blooded. Maybe I'm just using the term a bit differently from you but I think we're more on the same page than you think.
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I just view the fact he took the time to go get another gun for clearly no other purpose than to make sure they were dead as cold blooded. Maybe I'm just using the term a bit differently from you but I think we're more on the same page than you think.
Cold blooded simply doesn't mean what you want it to. It is calculated or unemotional acts without compunction. The guy went and got another gun because he ran out of ammo, not because he planned anything, and certainly not because he was acting without emotion.
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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cold-blooded
cold-blooded adjective
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cold-blood·ed | \ ˈkōl(d)-ˈblə-dəd \
Definition of cold-blooded
1a: done or acting without consideration, compunction, or clemency
cold-blooded murder
b: MATTER-OF-FACT, EMOTIONLESS
a cold-blooded assessment
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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cold-blooded
cold-blooded adjective
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cold-blood·ed | \ ˈkōl(d)-ˈblə-dəd \
Definition of cold-blooded
1a: done or acting without consideration, compunction, or clemency
cold-blooded murder
b: MATTER-OF-FACT, EMOTIONLESS
a cold-blooded assessment
Not the same thing at all
"Hot blooded"/crime of passion:
"In criminal law, a crime of passion is a crime committed in the "heat of passion" in response to provocation, as opposed to one that was premeditated or deliberated. ... Furthermore, for a defendant to have acted in the heat of passion, he or she must have been succumbed to adequate provocation."
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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cold-blooded
cold-blooded adjective
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cold-blood·ed | \ ˈkōl(d)-ˈblə-dəd \
Definition of cold-blooded
1a: done or acting without consideration, compunction, or clemency
cold-blooded murder
b: MATTER-OF-FACT, EMOTIONLESS
a cold-blooded assessment
He did demonstrate consideration and even clemency when he brandished without opening fire; he gave them one last chance to stop. Still not cold blooded.
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He did demonstrate consideration and even clemency when he brandished without opening fire; he gave them one last chance to stop. Still not cold blooded.
Did he show them clemency when he came back with another gun and stood over them and shot them both again? The fight was clearly over before that point.
they were stupid.
He was stupid.
Three people are dead.
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Did he show them clemency when he came back with another gun and stood over them and shot them both again? The fight was clearly over before that point.
they were stupid.
He was stupid.
Three people are dead.
Reading is fundamental; he demonstrated two of three while the definition hinges on displaying none.
It's okay to acknowledge one's misuse of vocabulary, it's generally how we learn and improve.
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Reading is fundamental; he demonstrated two of three while the definition hinges on displaying none.
It's okay to acknowledge one's misuse of vocabulary, it's generally how we learn and improve.
If it had said AND clemency and not OR clemency I would fully agree
Lets move on unlike those three.
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I heard somewhere this had been going on for a while. The couple seemed to take delight in doing things to provoke the man. Doesn't justify murder. (I heard that. I didn't see it in an article so it may not be true.)
Some people are just ***holes, but you still can't kill them. Sounds like he regretted what he did pretty quick.
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I watched the video. Was the audio correctly synched with the video? It sounded like there were several shots before anyone actually got shot. Why would someone just stand there while a guy was shooting?
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I watched the video. Was the audio correctly synched with the video? It sounded like there were several shots before anyone actually got shot. Why would someone just stand there while a guy was shooting?
I didn't notice any synch issues. I did notice that the couple were aholes. They seemed to think that they were untouchable.
Again, they didn't deserve to die, but in the video, and apparently for a long time before, they were doing the exact same bully stuff we are trying to stop in schools, where kids are bullied so bad with no one intervening, that they end up committing suicide. In this case the person who was bullied got revenge on the bullies before he killed himself.
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Am I a terrible person for thinking that neighborhood is better off now?
At least the average IQ increased ...
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I counted six shots before the man was actually hit. Why the hell would they just stand there getting shot at? Morons, all three of them.
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Am I a terrible person for thinking that neighborhood is better off now?
At least the average IQ increased ...
I'll save you a seat on the flaming bus..
I call the score -2 aholes and -1 guy finally provoked to violence that should've known better.
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"Cold blooded is reserved for calculated/premeditated murder. If he hadn't killed himself this would be Murder 2 or whatever the local unpremeditated murder "
Nope. Shooting them with the handgun would likely have brought a 2nd degree murder charge.
Going back into the house, obtaining a rifle, and then coming out and ensuring that they were dead?
That's a classic first degree murder charge case in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. The act of retrieving another gun and then firing additional shots satisfies both the premeditation and planning aspects required to charge first degree murder.
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I counted six shots before the man was actually hit. Why the hell would they just stand there getting shot at? Morons, all three of them.
I noticed the same thing. Crazy.
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"Cold blooded is reserved for calculated/premeditated murder. If he hadn't killed himself this would be Murder 2 or whatever the local unpremeditated murder "
Nope. Shooting them with the handgun would likely have brought a 2nd degree murder charge.
Going back into the house, obtaining a rifle, and then coming out and ensuring that they were dead?
That's a classic first degree murder charge case in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. The act of retrieving another gun and then firing additional shots satisfies both the premeditation and planning aspects required to charge first degree murder.
Psychotic episodes don't work that way.
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Psychotic episodes don't work that way.
Does reality generally have much bearing on criminal charges and our legal system?
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"Psychotic episodes don't work that way."
Yeah, they do, because it's up to the defense to convince a jury that there was an actual mental issue that negates or lessens the severity the charges. The state charges based on the factual transactions of the case. The transactions in this case are clear and are clearly born out by Pennsylvania law -- first degree murder attached when he came back out of his house with another gun to complete the transaction. The timing element is critical, and it doesn't (or wouldn't have) worked in the shooter's favor at all. The state would have charge first and second degree murder had he not killed himself.
I covered a similar case as a reporter in Pennsylvania years ago -- a murder that started out as an opportunistic crime and was escalated to first degree murder by the accused subsequent actions.
Accused was losing his girl friend to another guy. He's driving along, sees the guy at the side of the road, and swerves into him and blasts the guy into a field along the side of the road. Stopped his car, opened the trunk, got out a .30-30 Winchester, walked into the field, and pumped two rounds into the guy's chest.
Multiple witnesses to the murder.
Guy was charged with both first and second degree murder -- second degree for running the guy down, first degree for opening the trunk, getting the rifle, walking into the field, and shooting him. He ended up pleading to life/no parole to save himself a likely trip to the electric chair after the defense's psychological evaluations didn't do much to bolster an insanity defense.