Author Topic: Apparently We Nearly Had Ruby Ridge 2 in Idaho  (Read 1546 times)

Ben

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Apparently We Nearly Had Ruby Ridge 2 in Idaho
« on: November 01, 2023, 08:56:08 AM »
Apparently this happened in September, but I'm only seeing news about it now. Basically the fed forest cops wanted to kick a family (they might be rednecks, but I don't know that it matters) off public land where they were "illegally camping". Instead of just showing up in uniforms and marked cars, they decided to pull an "undercover sting" (for illegal camping) which, if I read between the lines, resulted in the one brother thinking his brother was being attacked by armed hoodlums, and the cops gunned him down. He actually lived after being shot eleven times.

In the end, they plead guilty to illegal garbage disposal and illegal camping.

https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/local/timber-roberts-sentencing-idaho/277-b314f1e5-296a-42c0-a399-bf26bc56eac9
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HankB

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Re: Apparently We Nearly Had Ruby Ridge 2 in Idaho
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2023, 09:28:56 AM »
. . . Instead of just showing up in uniforms and marked cars, they decided to pull an "undercover sting" . . .
Even from reading the linked article I'm not prepared to state definitively whose side I'm on, but generally speaking, if things went badly for the officers in this sort of situation and the "perps" survived and went to trial, were I on the jury it would weigh heavily on me whether or not the LEOs were readily identifiable as such - meaning uniforms and marked cars. I've read about too many instances of fake police to automatically take a guy in street clothes holding up a shiny piece of metal as a genuine LEO.
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gunsmith

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Re: Apparently We Nearly Had Ruby Ridge 2 in Idaho
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2023, 10:11:48 PM »
plainclothes should only be used for special operation's like illicit drug dealing/terrorism etc.
there are way to many police impersonators out there, I assume you're not a cop unless you are identifiable
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grampster

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Re: Apparently We Nearly Had Ruby Ridge 2 in Idaho
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2023, 10:29:29 PM »
The difference between yesterday and today with LEO operations continues to be the militarization of LE.  When our detectives and undercover guys made a case, the takedown involved being dressed in our everyday uniforms.  Our every day uniforms in those days also did not look like combat fatigues as many departments now use in many cases.
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Devonai

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Re: Apparently We Nearly Had Ruby Ridge 2 in Idaho
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2023, 06:09:52 AM »
I have no problem with black/gray/navy BDU-style uniforms as they are far more practical than the polyester crap.
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dogmush

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Re: Apparently We Nearly Had Ruby Ridge 2 in Idaho
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2023, 07:07:23 AM »
I have no problem with black/gray/navy BDU-style uniforms as they are far more practical than the polyester crap.

BDU's lead to mission creep.*

I have an issue with anything more tactical than 5.11 khakis and a polo.

ETA: *"Lead to" is probably too strong.  "Help Enable Mission Creep" is probably closer.

Ben

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Re: Apparently We Nearly Had Ruby Ridge 2 in Idaho
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2023, 07:20:29 AM »
BDU's lead to mission creep.*

I have an issue with anything more tactical than 5.11 khakis and a polo.

ETA: *"Lead to" is probably too strong.  "Help Enable Mission Creep" is probably closer.

I talk a lot about cops needing to get back to the "Andy Griffith" version of cops vs the Judge Dredd style, but more in attitude than clothing. I don't like seeing cops dressed in battle rattle and camo handing out traffic tickets. On the other hand, I can sympathize that in that type of job, the Andy Taylor uniform with the tie and the uncomfortable dress shoes is not practical for any type of police work away from a desk.

The 5.11s or "discrete tactical pants" with polos and useful boots or shoes in non-battlefield colors are totally acceptable, IMO. When it becomes difficult to differentiate a cop from a door kicker in Kandahar, in clothing, equipment, and attitude, I have problems.
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cordex

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Re: Apparently We Nearly Had Ruby Ridge 2 in Idaho
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2023, 07:27:08 AM »
American Gun Owners: "Judging a weapon by whether it looks scary instead of how it is used is stupid."
Also American Gun Owners: "Police wearing tactical clothing makes them scary and do bad things."
Also American Gun Owners: "I noticed that the mag pouches on my plate carrier aren't sufficiently dark in my NODs, so I'm going to swap to SuperDuperTac brand which also have a built-in TQ holder and grenade pouches."

Ben

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Re: Apparently We Nearly Had Ruby Ridge 2 in Idaho
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2023, 07:40:38 AM »
American Gun Owners: "Judging a weapon by whether it looks scary instead of how it is used is stupid."
Also American Gun Owners: "Police wearing tactical clothing makes them scary and do bad things."
Also American Gun Owners: "I noticed that the mag pouches on my plate carrier aren't sufficiently dark in my NODs, so I'm going to swap to SuperDuperTac brand which also have a built-in TQ holder and grenade pouches."

You don't think it's important  for a Constitutional Republic to ensure that when a cop and a soldier in daily work clothing are standing next to each other, that citizens can visually separate them? No one here has said cops shouldn't wear practical clothing and gear.

As for the comparison between cops and other civilians, when I can go to the Walmart and buy the same gear the cops use, then we can talk about the hypocrisy of gun owners. When civilian cops can get the same gear the military uses, but other civilians can't, we have a problem.
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dogmush

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Re: Apparently We Nearly Had Ruby Ridge 2 in Idaho
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2023, 08:14:25 AM »
American Gun Owners: "Judging a weapon by whether it looks scary instead of how it is used is stupid."
Also American Gun Owners: "Police wearing tactical clothing makes them scary and do bad things."
Also American Gun Owners: "I noticed that the mag pouches on my plate carrier aren't sufficiently dark in my NODs, so I'm going to swap to SuperDuperTac brand which also have a built-in TQ holder and grenade pouches."

I doesn't make them scary, it enables them to do things they shouldn't.  If you don't let them dress and equip themselves as door kickers, than they'll kick less doors.

Also, as agents of the government Police SHOULD be subject to more restrictions on gear than the free citizens of that republic. so your post is more like:

American Gun Owners: "Judging weapons by looks is stupid, because it's use is what matters"
Also American Gun Owners: "We don't want an occupying army, so police should not be kitted out like an occupying army"

cordex

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Re: Apparently We Nearly Had Ruby Ridge 2 in Idaho
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2023, 08:37:57 AM »
You don't think it's important  for a Constitutional Republic to ensure that when a cop and a soldier in daily work clothing are standing next to each other, that citizens can visually separate them? No one here has said cops shouldn't wear practical clothing and gear.
I was really just trying to make a joke, but it would definitely be the extreme outlier event that I would have any trouble visually distinguishing a cop and a soldier in daily work clothing.

As for the comparison between cops and other civilians, when I can go to the Walmart and buy the same gear the cops use, then we can talk about the hypocrisy of gun owners. When civilian cops can get the same gear the military uses, but other civilians can't, we have a problem.
Dude, you specifically have got more and way better personal equipment than 95% of cops are issued, with the likely and notable exceptions of comms and less lethal options.

Yeah, departments can get armored trucks and machine guns, but the vast majority of cops will never get those.  You've got to pay extortionate taxes on SBRs and suppressors, but you own them and wouldn't stand for someone saying that you shouldn't have them because they're scary looking.

I'm not saying things are perfect and exactly as they should be, but I do think it is funny that we sometimes mock others for clutching pearls based on appearances, and other times clutch our own pearls based on appearances.

I doesn't make them scary, it enables them to do things they shouldn't.  If you don't let them dress and equip themselves as door kickers, than they'll kick less doors.
There's some truth to this, but it's a little too focused.  This is like saying "A scoped rifle enables sniping innocent people from a clock tower.  If you don't let citizens get a scoped rifle, they'll snipe fewer people from clock towers."  Sniping from clock towers isn't the only application of a scoped rifle, and besides, as people in some other countries have recently figured out, sometimes there are cases where clock tower sniping might be a handy capability for even the most righteous of citizens.

There's practicality to using an external carrier, and if you're using an external carrier there's practicality to putting some of your equipment on it.  Sure, it also looks cool, but saying that police should use less functional clothing and gear because they might misuse it is silly.  If the focus is on what they're doing wrong, by all means criticize their wrongdoing.

I'm just saying lot of these fashion critiques are misplaced.  Cops and soldiers have very different missions, but both require they wear a level of armor and carry a bunch of crap on their person.  It shouldn't be a surprise that there is some crossover when it comes to functionality.

Ben

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Re: Apparently We Nearly Had Ruby Ridge 2 in Idaho
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2023, 08:52:18 AM »
I was really just trying to make a joke, but it would definitely be the extreme outlier event that I would have any trouble visually distinguishing a cop and a soldier in daily work clothing.
Dude, you specifically have got more and way better personal equipment than 95% of cops are issued, with the likely and notable exceptions of comms and less lethal options.

Yeah, departments can get armored trucks and machine guns, but the vast majority of cops will never get those.  You've got to pay extortionate taxes on SBRs and suppressors, but you own them and wouldn't stand for someone saying that you shouldn't have them because they're scary looking.

I'm not saying things are perfect and exactly as they should be, but I do think it is funny that we sometimes mock others for clutching pearls based on appearances, and other times clutch our own pearls based on appearances.

Okay, I can accept that. Sometimes interwebz communication causes miscommunication that face to face over a beer wouldn't.  =)
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dogmush

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Re: Apparently We Nearly Had Ruby Ridge 2 in Idaho
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2023, 09:23:26 AM »

There's some truth to this, but it's a little too focused.  This is like saying "A scoped rifle enables sniping innocent people from a clock tower.  If you don't let citizens get a scoped rifle, they'll snipe fewer people from clock towers."  Sniping from clock towers isn't the only application of a scoped rifle, and besides, as people in some other countries have recently figured out, sometimes there are cases where clock tower sniping might be a handy capability for even the most righteous of citizens.


Except i was trying to be focused, and you backed out too wide.  Your example is attempting to restrict what a free citizen of the republic can own, where I was trying to limit what Agents of the government may use against the citizens in the performance of their duties.

The second should be quite a bit more restrictive than the first, because cops, while on duty, ARE the government, and our entire style of government is about restricting what the government can do to us.

If the Individual officers want to buy NODS, plate carriers, M4's, Thermals, Mk12s, whatever, same as I do and practice in their own time to be prepared citizens, more power to them.  But the gear that the government gives them specifically to use on the citizens needs more scutiny.

cordex

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Re: Apparently We Nearly Had Ruby Ridge 2 in Idaho
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2023, 09:33:38 AM »
Except i was trying to be focused, and you backed out too wide.  Your example is attempting to restrict what a free citizen of the republic can own, where I was trying to limit what Agents of the government may use against the citizens in the performance of their duties.

The second should be quite a bit more restrictive than the first, because cops, while on duty, ARE the government, and our entire style of government is about restricting what the government can do to us.
Would that it were as simple as you imply.  Restricting tactical looking clothing doesn't in any way prevent misbehavior by agents of the government. 

dogmush

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Re: Apparently We Nearly Had Ruby Ridge 2 in Idaho
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2023, 09:37:33 AM »
Would that it were as simple as you imply.  Restricting tactical looking clothing doesn't in any way prevent misbehavior by agents of the government.

Perhaps, But it makes them easier to shoot if they do misbehave.