Winter tire advice

[Balog]

So this is my first winter outside the desert and I've discovered the joys of driving up a steep hill on ice and snow.  I carry chains, but my wife commutes to a much lower and less snowy area for work. So I'm looking into a good set of winter tires, and of course I've turned to this board for advice.

Any specific brand/model recommendations? Do I need them on all tires or just the drive tires?

Oh, and I have a 2007 Scion XB. How can I determine what other models of cars share rims with mine?

[CNYCacher]

Winterforce are an excellent tire that don't carry the hefty price tag of the heavily-marketed blizzaks and the like.

You could cheap out and go for just the drive wheels, but that is not as safe plus it's really a false economy?  Get all 4 winter tires.  You'll be saving wear on your summer set, so you even out in the end.

[bedlamite]

Winterforce are great tires for winter, just make sure you switch back to normal tires in the spring. They are very soft and will wear quickly if you keep them on the car next summer.

[Manedwolf]

So this is my first winter outside the desert and I've discovered the joys of driving up a steep hill on ice and snow.  I carry chains, but my wife commutes to a much lower and less snowy area for work. So I'm looking into a good set of winter tires, and of course I've turned to this board for advice.

Any specific brand/model recommendations? Do I need them on all tires or just the drive tires?

Oh, and I have a 2007 Scion XB. How can I determine what other models of cars share rims with mine?

I'm not sure the xB has enough torque to go up a steep hill on ice and snow no matter what tires you have on it. I don't believe it's AWD? All you can do is put it in "1" and try, or find another route. (and watch out for gusting winds when on slippery surfaces in that, that thing's a box!)

[HankB]

Oh, and I have a 2007 Scion XB.

You must've really been bad in a past life if you have to work off your karma this way . . . 

Having grown up in the snow belt, my family always used snow tires on the drive wheels only of our cars . . . which were always American rear wheel drive sedans. It's been quite a while - over 20 years, actually - but I remember getting "Goodyear F32" snow tires for my Pontiac; IIRC, at the time they were advertised as having a "new formulation" of rubber to try and make up for studded snow tires being outlawed.  .

They worked about as well as any . . . if I needed snow tires today, the F32s - or one of their successor models - would be my choice today.

[Nick1911]

Not to derail the thread, but what's the consensus about tire chains?  Worthwhile?

[drewtam]

You shouldn't be asking us... you should be asking the Norwegian Newspaper who does a monster snow tire test every year:
http://www.aftonbladet.se/bil/0310/18/dacktest.pdf

Consumer Reports did a interpretive analysis for american buyers:
http://www.consumersearch.com/www/automotive/snow-tires/index.html

And I found someone did an english translation of the original article on the web:
http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread/t-26846.html

Nokian "Hakkapeliitta 4" (studded)
5/5 Stars

The new Hakka-tire has a stable foundation, excellent thread pattern for all surfaces, and the new unique, squared studs give a superior bite on ice. On the winter road the tire is secure. It is also excellent in slush and stable on pavement.

+ Innovative and best on all winter roads.
- Nothing



Michelin "Ivalo" (studded)
3/5 Stars

Good reputation, high reliability and long lasting lets Michelin stay in the top sales. The tires grip has a long way to go to reach up with the best tires. When it starts skidding it is hard to regain the grip. Fortunately, the tires tell you before it happens and sometimes smoothes over the drivers mistakes.

+ Snowgrip
- Easily loses grip on slush



Continental "Winter Viking 1" (studded)
4/5 Stars

The Swedish tire-monger Allan Ostrowskis Winter Viking tops the tire tests year after year. It is a well balanced tire for both winter roads and bare-pavement. Perhaps the grip on snow could be a bit better, but the basic-security is still large.

+ Ice-grip and stability on pavement.
- Nothing



Kumho "KW 11 Izen Stud" (studded)
Disqualified

A lousy tire in which the grip suddenly disappears, and not even the most skilled test drivers managed to stop the skids before the cars hit the snow barriers. This judgement unfortunately applies to both ice, snow and pavement! Disqualified from the test.

+ Noise levels
- Grip and performance on all surfaces



Goodyear "UG500" (studded)
4/5 Stars

Very optimized for winter driving at the cost of stability on direct pavement. The extreme ability on slippery surfaces makes it a bit nervous on tracked pavement (you know, where there are two depressions in the ground from so many cars driving in the same place).

Best used on snow and ice.

+ Grip when slippery
- Nervous and somewhat unstable on pavement



Pirelli "Winter Carving" (Studded)
4/5

A completely fresh tire from Pirelli. But does anyone recognize the thread pattern? Right! It's an exact copy of Gislaved Nord Frost 3. Brilliant on snow, excellent on ice. A safe choice on any surface.

+ Top tire in most situations
- Somewhat slow reacting



Uniroyal "MS Plus Nordic" (studded)
4/5 Stars

Another "Allan-Ostrowskis-Tire", the design being a couple of years old, but still in the top. Safe but slightly too long, yet easily controlled, skids on winter roads. Quiet and very stable on pavement.

+ No weaknesses, low noise.
- Nothing



Gislaved "Nord Frost 3" (studded)
4/5 Stars

Has no particular weakness, the ability to find grip in snow-slush is, for example, still top-rated, but on snow the skids can become a bit long. The tire is no longer manufactured by Gislaved which causes its popularity to drop.

+ Grip on ice and slush
- Nothing



Bridgestone "Noranza" (studded)
3/5 Stars

Bridgestone creates a brand-image through F1 tires, but nordic winter roads demand more than image. The winter tire is a clear disappointment. It is vague and in certain situations dangerously oversteering (the rear end comes sliding) on ice. On bare-pavement it is uncomfortably unstable.

+ Grip on ice (despite the occational oversteering)
- Snowgrip



Michelin "260" (7 years old but unused - studded)
Disqualified

Many only drive a little in the winter and hardly wear down their tires at all. They drive on year after year and think they have a good grip. Our brand new 7-year old Michelin 260 prove the opposite. It skidded wildly and fell behind in almost all tests.

+ Grip in slush
- Ice and snow grip



Michelin "Maxi Ice" (non-studded)
1/5 Stars

The dense thread is an exciting attempt to make a good stud-less tire while not sacrificing stability on pavement. It almost succeeds. The pavement performance is brilliant. On snow and ice it barely keeps up.

+ Pavement
- Mobility and braking on ice (very crappy), and poor grip on slush



Bridgestone "Blizzak WS-50" (non-studded)
Disqualified

Dangerous! Blizzak is so dangerous on pavement that it is disqualified from the test. The skids during an avoidance manuever are so difficult to stop that it is an outright traffic danger. Blizzak has been one of the big sellers for many years. The winter-abilities (snow, ice and slush) are mediocre at best.

+ Grip on Snow and Ice (for a studless tire)
- Pavement



Bridgestone "Blizzak MZ-01" (7 years old but unused. non-studded)
Disqualified

Blizzak had a very good grip on ice when it was introduced at the end of the 1980's and became an instant big seller. Since then the tire has been developed in cycles. Our seven year old tire is hard to drive on winter-roads. The skids on ice are hopeless, and snow grip is nervous.

+ Nothing
- Poor grip on all surfaces



Pirelli "Icesport" (non-studded)
1/5 Stars

Maybe it is time to copy the northern tire-makers to get a reasonable stud-less tire? Icesport is engineered for middle Europe and is a tire you don't want to have on our winter roads. Ice grip is non-existant, and on pavement you can get treacherous skids.

+ Nothing
- Grip on snow and ice



Continental "Conti Viking Contact 3" (non-studded)
2/5 Stars

Allan Ostrowskis had time to construct two studless winners for Continential before he resigned. On snow the tire goes as if on rails, on ice it is reasonable and the skids, that can come quite unexpectedly, are after all something one can handle.

+ Snowgrip and noise
- Nothing



Gislaved "Soft Frost 2" (non-studded)
2/5 Stars

Better than Viking Contact on snow and ice. Risk of getting treacherous skids on pavement. On snow the skids are easy to control. On ice, the tire can oversteer but is still easy to control. The best studless tire for those who drive mostly on pavement.

+ Grip and performance on snow and ice.
- Easy skidding on pavement



Nokian "Hakkapeliitta Q" (non-studded)
2/5 Stars

The ice grip is excellent for a studless tire. On snow the grip is calm and nice, and the skids almost correct themselves. It is very slippery on wet pavement and skids wildly on dry pavement.

+ Grip on winter surfaces, performance on snow and ice.
- Grip and performance on pavement.

Full ABS braking on smooth ice. From 50km/h to stop.

1st place - Goodyear UG500
Distance - 38,5 meters.

16th place - Blizzak WS-50
Distance - 61 meters.


Acceleration on smooth ice. From 5-30km/h, full throttle, letting the traction control deal with the slippage.

1st place - Nokian Hakka 4.
Time - 8,9 seconds.

15th place - Blizzak WS-50.
Time - 13,5 seconds.


A circle with 60 meters in diameter, with rough ice, driving as fast as one can (like a skidpad).

1st place - Goodyear UG500
Laptime - 20,1 seconds.

15th place - Blizzak WS-50
Laptime - 23,4 seconds.



Ice-circuit, different turns and straights, going as fast as the tires allow.

1st place - Nokian Hakka 4.
Laptime - 80,1 seconds.

13th place - Blizzak WS-50.
Laptime - 91,5 seconds.



ABS-braking on snow. Unspecified.

1st - Pirelli UG500.
Distance - 49,5 meters.

6th place - Blizzak WS-50.
Distance - 53,5 meters.


ABS-braking from 60km/h on wet pavement.

1st place - Michelin 240 (the old one!)
Distance - 21,5 meters.

12t place - Blizzak WS-50
Distance - 23,5 meters.


Acceleration on snow. 5-30km/h.

1st place - Pirelli Icesport.
Time - 4,1 seconds.

8th place - Blizzak WS-50.
Time - 4,4 seconds.



Snow-circuit, with compact snow.

1st place - Gislaved Soft Frost 2.
Time - 84,5 seconds.

9th place - Blizzak WS-50.
Time - 86,2 seconds.


Slushplanning. Paved road covered with slush. Measures speed when it starts to slushplan.

1st place - Gislaved Nord Frost 3.
Speed - 50km/h

12th place - Blizzak WS-50
Speed - 48km/h


In the point scoring, Blizzak fell most short on ice and scored the entire tests worst score on "Stability on pavement" - the elk test, with a 4/10. The test winner Nokian Hakka 4, scored 7 in the elk test.

The difference is that the Blizzaks don't seem to have much stability and lateral grip on pavement compared to any new or old tire. Even the 7 year old blizzaks performed better - with a 5/10, on the elk test.

[thebaldguy]

Winter tires are a good investment; tires are cheap insurance. They really do make a difference. You should have winter tires on all four wheels, not just the drive wheels. Some models are studdable; make sure it's legal if you go that route. Take them off before warm weather hits in the spring to avoid unnecessary wear on the tires.

Here are some recommended tires from my Consumer Reports magazine:

Goodyear Eagle Ultra Grip
Nitto Winter
Continental ContiWinterContact
Bridgestone Blizzak
Nokian WR All Weather Plus
Dunlop SP Winter Sport
Michelin Pilot Alpin

There are some Finnish snow tire brands that are supposedly very good too.

[mgdavis]

It's legal to run studs during the winter here. If you want to get to or over the passes on a semi-regular basis (snowboarder?) you might think about going that route. The snow we just got is probably the worst we'll get this year, unless we get a nasty stretch like last year. I manage to get around with a 2wd pick-up on all but the worst days.

[Balog]

I live at exit 31 off the 90 towards Snoqualmie pass. I live on a ridge that's a couple hundred feet higher than the rest of North Bend and pretty steep. That's kinda my problem; I only need chains for the drive down the hill and maybe the first 10 miles of the commute if it's really bad. I thought some moderately priced winter tires would be easier than putting chains on for like 5 minutes, and a heck of a lot cheaper than ramming someone and watching my insurance premiums go soaring.

[mgdavis]

Good thinking there then. 

[thebaldguy]

It may be time for a 4x4 vehicle.

[mgdavis]

When I was young my Dad told me the problem with 4x4s in the snow and ice: You get twice as much "go" as every one else, but you don't get any extra "stop" to go with it.

[roo_ster]

mgdavis:

Your dad was a wise fellow.

[Bigjake]

From the snow belt of Ohio,  I've found that the Dick Cepeck mud country tires I roll during the summer work great in snow.  Just don't drive like a dumbass and leave plenty of time to stop and you will be fine.

[mgdavis]

I'd love to see an xB rolling on mudders. 

Balog: Make a decision yet? Don't leave us hanging. 

[Balog]

Decision? I've decided to be sick and have a houseguest coming.

[mgdavis]

Such is life, eh.

[charby]

I've lived in the snowbelt all my life.

My father was a big fan of having snow tires in the winter time for rear wheel drive vehicles.

Since front wheel drive seems to be the standard these days I have gone to a good set of all weather tires on my two wheel drive vehicles. I'm going to buy some new tires for my wife's car after the first of the year, she has a Pontiac Vibe and I am 95% certain that I will buy Goodyear Assurance Triple Tread tires for her car. They seem to fit the bill for all around driving here in Iowa.
-C

[Polishrifleman]

I would get a set of studs, and don't worry about hitting someone else worry about them hitting you!  Just moving up here from the desert you will find as mentioned that we don't get a ton of snow but when we do everyone craps out.  They don't know what to do, can't drive, forget how to communicate, and just leave their cars along the side of the road.  Meanwhile I motivate around in my front wheel drive Chevy Malibu with all season Firestones without problem.  The key around here is no-one knows how to drive in the stuff because we have snow maybe 2 or 3 days a year.  Leave plenty of following distance, keep your momentum and control your speed with the gas pedal not the break.  As for getting up and down the short stretch to your domicile, I would suggest ice melt, sand, kitty litter.

In regards to Nick 1911's question.  Chains are a must around here as mentioned before CHEAP INSURANCE, you hardly ever need them but just that one time and you understand.

[Fly320s]

I live at exit 31 off the 90

From California?   

[CNYCacher]

. . .  Meanwhile I motivate around in my front wheel drive Chevy Malibu with all season Firestones without problem
. . . Chains are a must around here as mentioned before CHEAP INSURANCE, you hardly ever need them but just that one time and you understand.

Are you talking about tire chains?  The only chains we use up here in NYS are the type of chain you use to pull your neighbor with the all-season tires out of the snowbank.

There is a difference between "Snow Tires" and "All-season" tires, a BIG difference.

But what do i know, we only average 10 feet of snow a year up here.

[Tallpine]

Be careful about putting chains or studded tires only on the front.  When braking, the front tends to stop while the back keeps going 

I have done that with (real) 4wd vehicles, but only in such deep snow that stopping was never a problem - just let off the gas and you stopped immediately.  Actually, back when I lived in a small town in Colorado and had a 4wd pickup, I never used the brake at all when it was really cold (November-April).  The gear oil in the 2 axles, transmission, and transfer case never got a chance to warm up, so you stopped almost immediately after letting off the gas pedal.

[Brad Johnson]

Any specific brand/model recommendations?

I'd suggest you get some that work in, well... snow.

Brad

[Balog]

When it snowed heavily (for us) a couple weeks ago, I got caught out and had to try to chug home through it. I was going along at a sedate 20ish in the right lane, with no one in front of me. A 5 series BMW passes me doing maybe 45-50 right before a curve. An off-camber curve. I see him spin out about 50 meters ahead of me, heading for the median. As I'm coming up he starts sliding (backwards) towards me. I managed to calmly steer around him by going onto the shoulder. Lost traction and slid a bit, but stayed off the brakes and got around him before his ignominious ass first trip to Ditchland.

I was actually pretty happy that I handled it as well as I did. I guess all those months having to keep my head whilst getting blown up really did change me in good ways as well as bad.